Curse

Ken Dei · Sep 25, 2006, 03:46 AM // 03:46

As those of us familier with Alliance Battles are aware. There is a major type of tactics for both the Luxon and Kurzick sides. However, when the other side attempts to use their enemies tactics, they generally fail horribly.

I hope to shed light on both styles of play in order to complete two objectives:

1. Educate people as to the tactical nature behind both and what they should be attempting to achieve with each format.

2. Allow people to examine various variations and their particular purposes and counters.

Luxon Capping:

The general purpose is somewhat obvious, to stay as mobile as possible and to capture as many posts as quickly as possible.

Dual 6 man teams:

Now then, generally the format of movement starts with your usual 4-4-4 setup at the start. Each squad secures their respective posts, then the central squad splits apart with two player joining the left and right squads.

Pros:
-Fast NPC kill times
-Max capture rate
-More resiliant and capable of picking a small fight if nessessary.

Cons:
-Less possible capture at a time.
-More detectable.
-slightly less synergy between players of the center team.

This particular setup is not supposed to run at the drop of a hat, if they encounter a group of stragglers trying to attack an allied post, the team can move in and eliminate them. Similarly, if they come under attack near a post they have just cleared, they need to attempt to capture it anyway.

3 four man groups:

This setup relies strictly on speed and specific builds. The entire objective is to take out enemy NPCs ASAP, cap the post and get out as fast as possible.

Pros:
-More possible captures at a time.
-Less detectable.
-More synergy between each team.

Cons:
-Less synergy for the team as a whole.
-Fragile, easily defeated in many cases.

Kurzick Mobbing:

Now, there will be a lot of people who will say "oh mobbing doesn't work." Bull, it can and does work. But only when done right.

The essence of mobbing is to either, attract weaker willed players into doom cirumstances and crushing them, or maintaining field dominance.

Land Grabbing:

Generally the Kurzick mob will claim thir basic posts and then converge on the nearest thing to a central position crushing all defenders of attackers in the area, depending on the map.

Then small branches of 3-5 players will spread out across the map to tactical positions, creating a living "wall" whereupon they control at least 51% of the map, hence 4 posts, or more, at any given time.

This tactic is perfect for stopping the smaller cap groups, due to the fact that as soon as they are spotted, the living mob swells at them and, crushes them with superior firepower and numbers.

Pros:
-Shuts down and kills smaller capping groups
-Large Line of sight, very little isn't spotted.
-units are genrally always in the area of a support unit.

Cons:
-Low mobility, the need to patrol large amounts of land doesn't lend to capping very much or very fast.
-Force commiting, generally when a target is spotted, all troops in the area charge at it, this can lead to gaps in the wall.

Giant Wave:

The purpose of the giant wave is to provide more security to specific points that have been captured and also allow for the capture of other posts faster.

Being tightly packed allows for more oragnization and hence faster movement between posts, in addition, having all troops on the front lines at the same time allows for larger groups of enemies to get killed.

Pros:
-Heavy firepower, can crush just about anything.
-higher mobility, can cap more posts, faster.
-more synergy as a group, mob effect.

Cons:
-Posts not directly in the line of sight of the mob are highly vulnerable.
-Smaller cap groups can avoid the mob staying just ahead or just behind, or both.
-Stragglers tend to break off and get lost, and then quickly get dead and seperated from the mob.

Overall:

Now, an intelligent tactician would use any of the two tactics in its variation depending on the style of enemy they are fighting, however, for some reason, neither the Luxons nor the Kurzicks grasp the fundamentals behind thier enemies strategies.

Kurzick failings at Capping:

Kurzicks are not generally bred on the idea of "smash the fly with the sledgehammer" tactics.

Hence they tend to center builds around pressure damage and sustained defense. Sacrificing mobility and spiking defense.

Thus, when Kurzick squads attempt to cap seprately from the mob, Luxons tend to crush them without much trouble. Unless of course they are defending a post, then they are in their element and are generally victorious.

Luxon failings at Mobbing:

Put simply, Luxons do not grasp the fundamental concept behind mobbing. Many are under the impression that it's all about numbers, and that's all.

While numbers are important, Luxons fail to use them strategically. many times they will use numbers to cap posts immediately, but then run away from a force half or a third their side instead of turning and killing the enemy.

Luxons are far to given to fleeing battles to effectively mob in most cases.

Conclusion:

In the end I hope this is educational for everyone so that I can stop watch people make god awul tactical errors on the battlefield.

P.S.

Tactics that DO NOT WORK:
-"Don't fight at all just cap and run away every time"

-"The rez post is the key to winning"

-Attack the "insert shrine," while the enemy team is still there, with a full compliment of NPCs. Unless you have a monk and a nuker, you should not even be attempting a 7 v 4 match up. Stop doing this idiotic tactic, 80% of the left or right side squads that die, die because the leader thinks he's invincible and thusly, so do the other idiotic members, hence they all charge into an near impossible battle.

Tactics, learn them, live them, fight with them, WIN.

Aeon_Enceladus · Sep 25, 2006, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Your post is pretty good mate

I'd like to point out that basically, to counter mobbing, all you gotta do is 'follow' the mob, in essence. Undo their caps.

Me, being a Luxon, understand that we SUCK at mobbing, and the Kurzicks almost ALWAYS have a minion master. It's those rare spikes against MMs that really dish out the pain in a mob.

Something to add: Spike KEY targets. If you see an MM with a horde of fiends, take him OUT. He'll ravage your shrines. An air spike, or choking gas ranger can drop him fast. Same thing with monks. Apply pressure accordingly.

Thorondor Port · Sep 25, 2006, 05:56 AM // 05:56

you wrote that with great bias.
if you told me you were a luxon Ken Dei, i wouldnt believe you

torquemada · Sep 25, 2006, 06:37 AM // 06:37

This is plain silly.

Because maps change as border's shift. There are maps where 6-6 is a natural split, even 8-4. Not only that, I observed mobbing (and I'd usually use the phrase zerg) from both sides. There are maps and starting positions that benefit from it.

And, yeah, wrong forum...

Zui · Sep 25, 2006, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by torquemada

This is plain silly.

-snip-

And, yeah, wrong forum...

For the silly part, QFT.

For the wrong fourm part, I think a Moderator disagrees with you, because this was in the Alliance Battles fourm, and it got moved here.

bigwig · Sep 25, 2006, 07:10 AM // 07:10

I personally wouldn't say some tactics are more popular with one side than the other.

Kook~NBK~ · Sep 25, 2006, 07:17 AM // 07:17

I've seen all of those tactics used by both sides, and a lot of the effectiveness depends on the map being played and the quality of players your playing with. (on both sides)

torquemada · Sep 25, 2006, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken Dei

As those of us familier with Alliance Battles are aware. There is a major type of tactics for both the Luxon and Kurzick sides. However, when the other side attempts to use their enemies tactics, they generally fail horribly.

The essence of mobbing is to either, attract weaker willed players into doom cirumstances and crushing them, or maintaining field dominance.

Now, an intelligent tactician would use any of the two tactics in its variation depending on the style of enemy they are fighting, however, for some reason, neither the Luxons nor the Kurzicks grasp the fundamentals behind thier enemies strategies.

Kurzicks are not generally bred on the idea of "smash the fly with the sledgehammer" tactics.

Hence they tend to center builds around pressure damage and sustained defense. Sacrificing mobility and spiking defense.

Just a few quick snippets for hilarity...

torquemada · Sep 25, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~

I've seen all of those tactics used by both sides, and a lot of the effectiveness depends on the map being played and the quality of players your playing with. (on both sides)

QFT. Depending on border state, maps/start positions swing in favor of one side or the other.

Kassad · Sep 25, 2006, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Umm OP is confused? I AB all the time, and its luxon who "Mob" 24/7 since its the only thing they know to do. Kurzick "Cap", unless AB has changed in the 3 hours I took a break for.

Shadowfox1125 · Sep 25, 2006, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kassad

Umm OP is confused? I AB all the time, and its luxon who "Mob" 24/7 since its the only thing they know to do. Kurzick "Cap", unless AB has changed in the 3 hours I took a break for.

Both sides do it and you know it. I was running some effective 3 4 man groups in the games I was playing, successfully capping many bases. "Mobbing" happens when a side is disorganized, so they start in their respective 4 man groups, but cluster when things get tough.

Arcador · Sep 25, 2006, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Well the "pattern" I have seen in both actions varry in the time of the day. I've seen both sides do mob and both do capping movements. Of course favors might be different.
I've spoted this pattern too - the more deep you go into enemy teritory, the more strange* your allys will work. You will see very good teamplay when playing in the last map of yours but when it comes to the last map of theirs - you will see the most erratic mistakes there are. Like 1 by 1 people attacking posts with players and so on.

* swap strange with stupid

baz777 · Sep 25, 2006, 12:06 PM // 12:06

I know us Luxon are going to have a hard time when 4-4-4 at the start is too much for some

KitoNazuro · Sep 25, 2006, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Umm it may just be me but every single AB i have ever played the Luxon have mobbed and didn't know how to cap what so ever. They either had 1-2 shrines or they were just crushed by Kurzick's capping. Most of the AB's i have played the Kurzick have always capped there points with there team then joined another team that might have problems and then start patrolling back to there part where they capped in the first place to get those points back. The only time i see mobbing with kurzick is if the rez shrine is takin and we need it back asap since that can mean winning the game or loseing the game depending on map. Now as for map pushes and such i have seen more of the luxon maps then kurzick.

Giga Strike · Sep 25, 2006, 01:40 PM // 13:40

in my experiences Kurzicks were the ones that capped and luxons were the ones that mob.

kurzicks tend to stay within their own groups and go their own directions to cap points, occasionally they'll merge together if it happens that they are after the same thing but ussually they stay in 3 groups of 4.

luxons tend to mob more. they will capture their respective points then merge at the center, take the center point, then move out together and hit the kurzicks where they're strong.

fenix · Sep 25, 2006, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Almost every single AB I've been in, the Luxons have mobbed (I'm Kurzick, but not biased), and been beaten easily by Kurzicks, who just cap all the shrines and keep moving around capping them. This thread is silly, because it's totally wrong. Some AB's I've been in, the Kurzicks are all horrible at the game, and just spend the match trying to kill everyone, and leave me and my guildies to cap all the points -_-

torquemada · Sep 25, 2006, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Aren't we talking map specifics here?

That aside, we did know to force some defensive tactical splits when holding, and join on opponent zerg, then split again. It can hold quite awhile. Communication is the key. Like you're saying that just one side has insightful and expd players while otherside just runs around following the first wammo that comes in sight. There are always players that do not know the layout of the map and don't care to press U either. They don't care to cap, just to, quote "pwn xxx noobs". They rush at first enemy they see, blindly failling to see that the enemy is retreating to it's capped point to pull NPC's. My gf (running boonprot) got called "running noob" from 3 idiots that got owned by a host of npc's moments later.

I digress. I would not go as far as to divide them into Luxon or Kurzick factions, term noobs will suffice. Both sides got em plenty.

HawkofStorms · Sep 25, 2006, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Good post in terms of discussion of tactics.

Bad in terms of labelling each side. Both sides mob and both sides have capped. I've seen W/Rs using bows and E/Ws using swords and other idots on both sides. Statistically speaking, the two sides (luxon and kurzick) are identical. Good job writting with bias.

Tremere · Sep 25, 2006, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by talon

Almost every single AB I've been in, the Luxons have mobbed (I'm Kurzick, but not biased), and been beaten easily by Kurzicks, who just cap all the shrines and keep moving around capping them. This thread is silly, because it's totally wrong. Some AB's I've been in, the Kurzicks are all horrible at the game, and just spend the match trying to kill everyone, and leave me and my guildies to cap all the points -_-

Yeah man, totally, you have my full agreement here. This guy needs to obviously do even -more- AB, since he has it absolutely BACKWARDS. I've never seen Kurzick's mob in any game i've ever played (over +100 battles)... ever. They go around capping, and Luxon's cap too, and its a standoff, and someone pull's ahead, or something like that. Or Luxon's just cap a few so they get the lead, then turn into this 'swarm' that just rampages through the level, and smart Kurzick's avoid and still try to maintain the cap (far too rarely, unfortunately) and the less bright among them get bogged down into a battle of attrition.

So yeah, basic summary : Luxon's mob... Kurzick's cap, or just fight and lose, basically, cause they get confused and think they are playing Quake 3 Arena for some reason. Meh.

- Tremere

Alleji · Sep 25, 2006, 05:40 PM // 17:40

I don't think AvA is clear-cut like that... because half the people don't have the slightest idea of a good build, an effective strategy or simply aren't good at this game.

I've seen way too many people use plain silly skills and builds, most notably touchers not understanding why their build works and playing N/R touchers (without expertise and with dodge) and R/N "touchers" with shadow strike and life siphon (not affected by expertise - the whole reason for a ranger primary). Also, countless air "spiker" builds that don't understand that the whole premise of spiking is to 1-shot a target. Instead they "spike" with ride the lightning, orb, strike, javelin. Sadly, these types can actually score kills in AvA because of the third category - those creative people running an E/A assasin for energy storage and an A/Mo full monk with daggers for god knows what...

So, in AvA I usually grab 3 other people by inviting everyone in the district, ask them if they're ready and then hit "enter mission", run off on my own, do my best and don't worry about group tactics in the slightest. Just play a build that has capping power (can solo cap most points), mobility and self-heal and you're automatically better than 95% of AvA population. Of course, those 3 traits are pretty hard to put together in one character and that's why I think a cripshot ranger is optimal for "soloing" AvA. You may have seen me on my ranger, Lynn Atreides, racking it in for the luxons. If you play a warrior you also may have flamed me for being a "noob runner" while dying from bleeding and poison. :P

(Hint: cripshot premade is a good place to start)