Curse

Div · Nov 16, 2008, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKB48

Oh yeah I'm terrible at the game.......and NOOOOOO I don't run meteor shower, I run Meteor Storm

Way to go Moddy, just take my post in pieces, its how the media trash talk people to death.....by taking a piece, rather than the entire thing into context.

So what's your *whole* argument then? I don't see how taking your most important points and shooting them down is the wrong approach.

keli · Nov 16, 2008, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

.
No one is forcing you to stay.

There are some intresting topics, plus the news are forcing me to stay

Div · Nov 16, 2008, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Note: Any posts dealing with politics from this point on will be considered off-topic, and deleted regardless of whatever other stuff is in the post.

Div · Nov 16, 2008, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

People complain warriors turn into dervishes when they run WE. I really see no problem in that, as long as they sacrifice their elite for that.

I'm assuming you weren't around when SoH-conjure dervishes insta-gibbed everything in sight. You see no problem with that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

What makes WE so much different than a WS derv? The warrior loses it's elite in order to create a more diverse form of play for those who get sick and tired of shock axing every day (which I see most of you haven't after 3+years...) Diversity is good, change is good, and WE is stopped just like ANY OTHER MELEE BUILD.

If I wanted that kind of diversity, I'd just play a dervish. A warrior is balanced around adrenal skills, and the typical things that normally slow down a warrior's ability to perform well aren't in check anymore (protting regular attacks = less adren build, blackout adren skills, knowing when warriors are "built").

ensoriki · Nov 16, 2008, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Diversity?
Im confuzzled, since when was there Diversity in this games pvp, isn't WE a flavor build or something now.
If it is, then it's like decent and probably gaining popularity or is popular.
Which probably means it's taking away from some other build and stemming diversity....
but this is an assumption.

Also stopped like every other melee build mr.Karp? Don't we have team mates to prevent you being shutdown like "every" other melee build, and that Warriors are usually enough pressure (not sure about this build, haven't run it or seen it yet) that blinding is just temporary relief.

of course, I lack experience with this build, and so I'm just going off what people are saying here.

Magikarp · Nov 16, 2008, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

I'm assuming you weren't around when SoH-conjure dervishes insta-gibbed everything in sight. You see no problem with that?

If I wanted that kind of diversity, I'd just play a dervish. A warrior is balanced around adrenal skills, and the typical things that normally slow down a warrior's ability to perform well aren't in check anymore (protting regular attacks = less adren build, blackout adren skills, knowing when warriors are "built").

WS Dervs are still imbalanced, but because it's pretty much the only good Derv build, most people just don't care.

as for your second statement, there are 2 major things wrong with it. Stating that WE is bad or broken simply because YOU don't want the diversity, or YOU think that you should just play a Derv instead, is like saying that just because Ford makes a new hybrid, you might as well never buy it and instead buy a Toyota Prius. Oh, and btw, I don't like to play Dervish. Not my cup of tea. Sometimes a Ranger likes to deal some numbers, so they play Thumper.. sometimes a Sin likes to be a caster.. so they play Assassicaster.. People like to be able to try different things, or have more than a handful of "options" to play their game with. Maybe someone plays PvP with their PvE character, and they don't want to make another with all the works.. they make the one character work for a multitude of things. Simple as that.

N/Rt Healer
R/W Thumper
R/D Sweeper
R/P Chucker
A/Mo Caster
A/D Sweeper
Rt/x Spirit Strength
E/x Party Support
etc

Also, Blacking out a warrior?? Ok, a backlining Mesmer might be able to pull that off, but that's not even a popular option outside of small arena, and second, to say protting doesn't slow down the warrior as much as a adrenal warrior is like saying protting doesn't slow down a Derv. If you prot, you prot, there is no difference, because a GOOD PLAYER SWITCHES TARGETS.

These situational context are just more excuses and QQ

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Diversity?
Im confuzzled, since when was there Diversity in this games pvp, isn't WE a flavor build or something now.
If it is, then it's like decent and probably gaining popularity or is popular.
Which probably means it's taking away from some other build and stemming diversity....
but this is an assumption.

Also stopped like every other melee build mr.Karp? Don't we have team mates to prevent you being shutdown like "every" other melee build, and that Warriors are usually enough pressure (not sure about this build, haven't run it or seen it yet) that blinding is just temporary relief.

of course, I lack experience with this build, and so I'm just going off what people are saying here.

lol assumptions rule..

So WE is immune to blind? Faintheartedness? Etc? Delving in to what the team is going to do in situational context has nothing to do with the build or anything else here, and is entirely player situational.

Tyla · Nov 16, 2008, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Melee counters have existed for all melee builds. Is this to say that it can't be imbalanced? Same for prottability.

Magikarp · Nov 16, 2008, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Melee counters have existed for all melee builds. Is this to say that it can't be imbalanced? Same for prottability.

Do you think WS is imbalanced? (Mind you, WE packs ONE condition, and NO utility)

Tyla · Nov 16, 2008, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Yes, I do think WS is imbalanced. The only difference here is that Warriors' Endurance has +36 damage attacks being spammable, and 1/2 IAS attacks being spammable while having a chance to deal +36 damage. It's also upfront, and more unpredictable and against all that a Warrior was balanced through; adrenaline. Bull's Strike is utility. The DW is cheap. If you really want, swap out the res for Shock or something like that. The amount of damage this bar can do, and the skill requires to play the bar is just stupid, too. You say no utility, but look at its damage output. Have you even played the bar?

Magikarp · Nov 16, 2008, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Yes, I do think WS is imbalanced. The only difference here is that Warriors' Endurance has +36 damage attacks being spammable, and 1/2 IAS attacks being spammable while having a chance to deal +36 damage. It's also upfront, and more unpredictable and against all that a Warrior was balanced through; adrenaline. Bull's Strike is utility. The DW is cheap. If you really want, swap out the res for Shock or something like that. The amount of damage this bar can do, and the skill requires to play the bar is just stupid, too. You say no utility, but look at its damage output. Have you even played the bar?

Bulls is utility, I did leave that out, but I meant active utility like Shock or Dis Strike. I have played the bar, and in fact played it all last night to see how "broken" it felt, in RA, TA, and AB. All I saw was instant action. Just like RotN bars and any other energy based melee.

You still have to be a good player to make any bar truly effective.
You still have to use good timing.
You still have to be a team player.

The bar alone didn't get me any miracle wins/kills, but it did what it was supposed to do. It's not as hard as say a hammer bar, but then again, neither is Conjure Crip. With only one condition, you have to play a pretty low spike, putting the DW on kind of late in order to surprise anyone, and really, any Mo/W sees it coming (especially a good play.. *suspense music*) I would say overall, yeah, it's great for killing people with no self heal or have no idea what they're doing, but it's not breaking any records.

Also note that I've monked against a million of the in RA/AB and have yet to even break a halfpoint in HP. I'm more afraid of a stupid Assassicaster than WE..

Tyla · Nov 16, 2008, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

Bulls is utility, I did leave that out, but I meant active utility like Shock or Dis Strike. I have played the bar, and in fact played it all last night to see how "broken" it felt, in RA, TA, and AB. All I saw was instant action. Just like RotN bars and any other energy based melee.

And considering Warriors are balanced around adrenaline? You've got Agonizing Chop (with more damage if you hit the conditional) and Body Blow on a 3 second recharge and it doesn't need charging and isn't slower to build through blocking either.

Quote:

You still have to be a good player to make any bar truly effective.

You don't say.

Quote:

You still have to use good timing.

You don't need to have good timing to get effective use out of it completely, that only adds on.

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You still have to be a team player.

You don't say.

This bar is tremendously easy to run at almost any skill level, as long as you're not a complete idiot with Frenzy and Bulls.

Quote:

The bar alone didn't get me any miracle wins/kills, but it did what it was supposed to do.

Find me a Warrior bar that isn't efficient at its job?

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It's not as hard as say a hammer bar, but then again, neither is Conjure Crip.

With adrenaline bars you have to find the best oppertunities to dump the adrenaline for it to be completely useful and not wasted. With WE that worry is gone.

Quote:

With only one condition, you have to play a pretty low spike, putting the DW on kind of late in order to surprise anyone, and really, any Mo/W sees it coming (especially a good play.. *suspense music*) I would say overall, yeah, it's great for killing people with no self heal or have no idea what they're doing, but it's not breaking any records.

Anybody good will see damage dumps coming most of the time.

A question. Did you think Experts' Dexterity was balanced too?

Magikarp · Nov 16, 2008, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Anybody good will see damage dumps coming most of the time.

A question. Did you think Experts' Dexterity was balanced too?

EDex had tons of utility, self buffing, self maintenance, and way more damage. It and WE aren't even comparable imo.

wolfy3455 · Nov 16, 2008, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

WS Dervs are still imbalanced, but because it's pretty much the only good Derv build, most people just don't care.

as for your second statement, there are 2 major things wrong with it. Stating that WE is bad or broken simply because YOU don't want the diversity, or YOU think that you should just play a Derv instead, is like saying that just because Ford makes a new hybrid, you might as well never buy it and instead buy a Toyota Prius. Oh, and btw, I don't like to play Dervish. Not my cup of tea. Sometimes a Ranger likes to deal some numbers, so they play Thumper.. sometimes a Sin likes to be a caster.. so they play Assassicaster.. People like to be able to try different things, or have more than a handful of "options" to play their game with. Maybe someone plays PvP with their PvE character, and they don't want to make another with all the works.. they make the one character work for a multitude of things. Simple as that.

This entire paragraph is retarded. We're talking about PvP. Balance is the issue, not convenience or preference.

Quote:

Also, Blacking out a warrior?? Ok, a backlining Mesmer might be able to pull that off, but that's not even a popular option outside of small arena, and second, to say protting doesn't slow down the warrior as much as a adrenal warrior is like saying protting doesn't slow down a Derv. If you prot, you prot, there is no difference, because a GOOD PLAYER SWITCHES TARGETS.

Blacking out a warrior may be unpopular, but I don't think this was divine's point. In actual play, things are a lot more complicated that "GUYZ THIS IZ PROTTED". Your example is actually completely correct. Protting doesn't slow down derv's as much as it does warriors. By protting in this case, I mean block; if monks throw a hard prot every time a warrior switches targets, they're going to be empty really quickly. A good player switches targets, which I'm pretty sure divine knows pretty well, but you don't seem to understand that even this is more beneficial to dervs or WE templates than adrenaline wars. Even excluding snares, there is a time component to switching targets that increases as your opponents positioning gets better. For an adren war, nothing is happening during this time. Sure, your bull's will recharge and you might lose some exhaustion, but you're neither doing damage nor increasing your potential for damage (building). A derv or WE guy will get to their next target completely capable of spiking. This entire issue is about adrenaline

Quote:

So WE is immune to blind? Faintheartedness? Etc? Delving in to what the team is going to do in situational context has nothing to do with the build or anything else here, and is entirely player situational.

Again, this is an adren issue. A WE guy isn't immune to blind, faint, blurred, guardian, warding or any other form of defense, but without the balancing component of adrenaline, it really isn't hampered that much by them. Anything that causes attacks to fail to hit hurts an adren war's current output and future output by slowing their build speed. They only affect a WE's current output leaving them at full potential once whatever it was ends.

WE as a damage engine is definitely broken. Its DPS is about the same as an old school five attack skill Dslash bar with none of the drawbacks, bull's, and resistance to shutdown. However, that isn't even the real problem. Whenever a bar is capable of huge damage compression on a short reliable recharge, its going to be a spike bar. It doesn't matter that its DPS is broken, its going to be used to push more spikes through because spiking is an easier more reliable way to win. Having what is essentially a full warrior spike available every three seconds is not balanced.

Stoella · Nov 16, 2008, 08:18 PM // 20:18

WE is not balanced at all. I agree with what has been said :

It's not normal that WE wars are able to unleash a powerful spike every 3secs. Wars usually spike using Adrenaline, which is producing high damage spikes ... one spike like that every 3secs with faster IAS is sick.

Edwards · Nov 16, 2008, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

Maybe someone plays PvP with their PvE character, and they don't want to make another with all the works.. they make the one character work for a multitude of things. Simple as that.

And all builds should be balanced around their performance in the Shiverpeak Arena as well. Think of the PvE'rs people!

Quote:

Also, Blacking out a warrior?? Ok, a backlining Mesmer might be able to pull that off, but that's not even a popular option outside of small arena, and second, to say protting doesn't slow down the warrior as much as a adrenal warrior is like saying protting doesn't slow down a Derv. If you prot, you prot, there is no difference, because a GOOD PLAYER SWITCHES TARGETS.

If you have a Mesmer with blackout and you're getting outpressured or outspiked, they should be blacking out the frontline. Also, as somebody else already mentioned, switching targets DOES slow down an adren based warrior more than a WE because you gain no adren running between targets. Also, because a WE is ALWAYS a spike threat, they draw more hard prots than a warrior that has to build in order to spike.

Quote:

I have played the bar, and in fact played it all last night to see how "broken" it felt, in RA, TA, and AB. All I saw was instant action. Just like RotN bars and any other energy based melee.

Well, if it's balanced in RA...

Shendaar · Nov 16, 2008, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

Also note that I've monked against a million of the in RA/AB and have yet to even break a halfpoint in HP. I'm more afraid of a stupid Assassicaster than WE..

I'm pretty sure nobody cares about your RA and AB experiences. The build is broken where it matters. Again, the damage potential is too high regardless of its "lack" of utility and that's especially true considering how easy the build is to play.

I play warrior pretty much exclusively and what I've been able to do tells me that it is broken. It like all the other dumbed down builds need to go for the good of the game.

AKB48 · Nov 16, 2008, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

So what's your *whole* argument then? I don't see how taking your most important points and shooting them down is the wrong approach.

Which was why in a previous post of mine I said opps my bad. There is a reason for it, blame it on yourself that your eyes didn't see it. I made a mistake, i apologized for it, yet you're making a big fuss about it because you didn't notice I admit i was wrong.

AKB48 · Nov 16, 2008, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shendaar

I'm pretty sure nobody cares about your RA and AB experiences. The build is broken where it matters. Again, the damage potential is too high regardless of its "lack" of utility and that's especially true considering how easy the build is to play.

I play warrior pretty much exclusively and what I've been able to do tells me that it is broken. It like all the other dumbed down builds need to go for the good of the game.

I'm pretty sure nobody cares about your likings of how to play warrior,
GW =/= You. WE= just power, nothing else. 1 Guardian can make the war literally useless.

Reverend Dr · Nov 16, 2008, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Replacing a 4 year skill-required staple build for a slam down buttons as fast as you can build. This is what has happened. Before you respond and tell me WE is fine, justify that replacement.

No one has justified this replacement yet.

Is WE beatable? Yeah. Is it overpowered, a bit, not-beta dervway overpowered, but a bit too powerful.

Is it degenerative to the game? Its got that in spades. This is why it needs to die.

Bobby2 · Nov 16, 2008, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfy3455

stuff

What this guy is saying.