Curse

AKB48 · Nov 11, 2008, 11:24 PM // 23:24

The build is fine, people are way over doing this. Oh Nos! he is spaming Frenzy! so what? This is a game, not an IQ test.

Reverend Dr · Nov 11, 2008, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Adrenaline is resource only available to the warrior (and spearchuckers) to compensate for their slow energy gain. As such, I can only conclude that a warrior bar with only 1 adrenaline skill, and enough energy to spam everything on recharge, should just not exist.

Seraphim of Chaos · Nov 12, 2008, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by la_cabra_de_vida

It should go back to being a stance, then izzy should cut both the duration and the recharge time. So...

a) it wouldnt be up all the time to let you spam power attack and prot strike.
b) you cant have WE and frenzy going at once..so you would use it to gain energy, then be able to spike in frenzy, but not be a big dps machine 24/7

That would make it even worse than before. Good job on proposing to totally make skills unusable. That's the Izzy way of thinking!

la_cabra_de_vida · Nov 12, 2008, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim of Chaos

That would make it even worse than before. Good job on proposing to totally make skills unusable. That's the Izzy way of thinking!

No, before it was just a stance with 30 sec duration/ 30 sec recharge, it was dumb to use because you couldnt use an ias. If you cut the duration and recharge then its still useable to gain energy between spikes without being overpowered.

AKB48 · Nov 12, 2008, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim of Chaos

That would make it even worse than before. Good job on proposing to totally make skills unusable. That's the Izzy way of thinking!

I think Izzy is trying to find a balance between buffing and nerfing skills. If he nerfs some skill, people BOOs, and if he buffs some skill, people still BOOs him. It's a hard job you know, I hope at least he gets paid well.

la_cabra_de_vida · Nov 12, 2008, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by AKB48

I think Izzy is trying to find a balance between buffing and nerfing skills. If he nerfs some skill, people BOOs, and if he buffs some skill, people still BOOs him. It's a hard job you know, I hope at least he gets paid well.

The problem is that he has been trying to fight power creep with power creep, look at all the recent nerfs going a couple months back. These are all skills that had been buffed or changed earlier.

Seraphim of Chaos · Nov 12, 2008, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by la_cabra_de_vida

No, before it was just a stance with 30 sec duration/ 30 sec recharge, it was dumb to use because you couldnt use an ias. If you cut the duration and recharge then its still useable to gain energy between spikes without being overpowered.

Quote:

Originally Posted by la_cabra_de_vida

It should go back to being a stance, then izzy should cut both the duration and the recharge time. So...

a) it wouldnt be up all the time to let you spam power attack and prot strike.
b) you cant have WE and frenzy going at once..so you would use it to gain energy, then be able to spike in frenzy, but not be a big dps machine 24/7

Uh, what the hell are you talking about? Short term memory loss?

Symbol · Nov 12, 2008, 02:07 AM // 02:07

What's wrong with being a "big dps machine 24/7"?

Seems like a pretty clear cut case of trading utility for damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

mmmmmmmm...

Any decent template can be "epic pressure" if you spam frenzy hard enough.

WE is tailor-made for pressure. Unloading twice as often -> drawing twice as much prot, and relying mostly on energy skills means you get other efficiencies too (like having your attacks recharge while you switch targets).

There's no reason to use WE in pure 3-2-1 builds unless you run it with ED.

Ec]-[oMaN · Nov 12, 2008, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

What's wrong with being a "big dps machine 24/7"?

Seems like a pretty clear cut case of trading utility for damage.

WE is tailor-made for pressure. Unloading twice as often -> drawing twice as much prot, and relying mostly on energy skills means you get other efficiencies too (like having your attacks recharge while you switch targets).

There's no reason to use WE in pure 3-2-1 builds unless you run it with ED.

There are some people though who think this new WE bar is far from the design and original concept of the warrior. Why was it that Izzy thinks button mash is good for the game, and why change the original concept of warriors from being a staple "DPS Machine" to an even "Bigger DPS Machine"?
I'd say currently there are many GvG team builds that can take advantage of the WE bar, any midline rit with Caretakers, Ranger sloted with sloth or keen, any air ele bar, mind shock comes to mind. This trend of "Power Creep" always showed the flaws within GW, we've had many skill balances over the years/months that tried to put dumb skills from nightfall in check. Meanwhile we are just getting old skills buffed to dumb levels, smell a rehash.

la_cabra_de_vida · Nov 12, 2008, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seraphim of Chaos

Uh, what the hell are you talking about? Short term memory loss?

Since you seem unable to to see my point. Ill make it simple.

Put Warrior's Endurance back to a stance...

this eliminates... a) power attack and prot strike spam

Then reduce the recharge and duration...to say 8 seconds...

this enables you to use it to gain energy between spikes.....not just being available every 30 seconds as it originally was.

Symbol · Nov 12, 2008, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Quote:

this enables you to use it to gain energy between spikes.....not just being available every 30 seconds as it originally was.

Gain energy for what? Wtf are you going to spend this energy on that's worth sacrificing your:
a. Elite slot
b. Your IAS
c. Your IMS

What you're proposing is a shittier version of battle rage (at least BR can replace rush, so it offers SOME bar compression), and no one runs battle rage.

la_cabra_de_vida · Nov 12, 2008, 04:53 AM // 04:53

What is the skills purpose in the first place if not to gain energy? Explain.

AKB48 · Nov 12, 2008, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Conclusion: Leave the skill as it is right now, we aren't reaching a compromise here.
Let's just pretend Izzy and his skill balances didn't exist.

swordfisher · Nov 12, 2008, 08:44 AM // 08:44

Make it a stance again, give it a 25% speed boost and take it down to 15 second recharge with a 16 second uptime at 13.

battlerage::rush as warrior's endurance::sprint

No one uses Battle Rage. That's because there isn't a competitive bar for it, whereas the WE bar is proven effective. What WE does now is allow a warrior to output BIG DOMAGE on anything it can lay hands on, with zero downtime. Reverting it to a (useable) stance makes it easier to predict when the warrior is a threat and when it is not.

Someone was running the numbers earlier, and said that WE basically does the DPS of a conjure axe. It's not the DPS I'm objecting to- it's the playstyle. Charging adrenaline, making every second count so you can spike more frequently and pressure out the other team, is demanding. It's something that opposing monks can keep track of to allow them to preprot. Warrior's Endurance demands less skill from the warrior, and does less to reward skill on the part of the enemy backline. So, whether or not it's strictly overpowered, it's still not something that belongs in the upper levels of GW.

Symbol · Nov 12, 2008, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by swordfisher

Someone was running the numbers earlier, and said that WE basically does the DPS of a conjure axe. It's not the DPS I'm objecting to- it's the playstyle.

Conjure does more raw dps but has the downside of being strippable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by swordfisher

Charging adrenaline, making every second count so you can spike more frequently and pressure out the other team, is demanding.

People keep saying this and it make no sense. Charging adrenaline is totally transparent. It's not "demanding" at all. It requires no attention or effort from the player apart from hitting as much as possible, which is something that you want to do anyway, WE or no WE.

Ec]-[oMaN · Nov 12, 2008, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by swordfisher

No one uses Battle Rage. That's because there isn't a competitive bar for it, whereas the WE bar is proven effective. What WE does now is allow a warrior to output BIG DOMAGE on anything it can lay hands on, with zero downtime. Reverting it to a (useable) stance makes it easier to predict when the warrior is a threat and when it is not.

Battle Rage is a skill that I think is more in touch with the warriors design though. You're sac'ing an Elite slot for a non dmg skill that offers, bar compression, acting as a speed boost, cancel stance from frenzy, and as a bonus it charges your adren pool 2x as fast. After the recent change to Battle Rage I've actually been very tempted to run it in GvG, something along the lines of this;
[Frenzy][Shock][Dismember][Body Blow][Agonizing Chop][Bulls Strike][Battle Rage][Resurrection Signet]
Anyways [Warriors Endurance] needs to be hit somehow, kill it for all I care, because with whatever tweak you make to it like making it a stance better options arise like even the bar above which offers some extra slots. Previously when it was a stance, it filled a niche role/template, that being using a 2 handed weapon hammer or scythe and filling the bar with as many energy skills as you could, which I thought was fine.
I agree with you, but even if you make it a use-able stance and cut the duration recharge in half, I doubt people would run it. Why bother filling your bar up with 2x non adren skills when you can't pewpew them on recharge and you lose a whole ton of extra slots for it? Regardless, skill needs to be reverted and fill that niche role again instead of becoming the "STAPLE" broken build to bring.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

People keep saying this and it make no sense. Charging adrenaline is totally transparent. It's not "demanding" at all. It requires no attention or effort from the player apart from hitting as much as possible, which is something that you want to do anyway, WE or no WE.

You are forgetting the fact that any other warrior bar requires adren in order to even compete with the DMG output spamming [Protector's Strike] and [Power Attack] offers. The WE bar actually offers even less attention or effort than any other bar because again there is no need to build adren in order to output 80+dmg hits on demand. If my shock axe warrior has built no adren and has been blind for 4 seconds, and your WE warrior has built no adren and has been blind for 4 seconds, how much damage output is each capable after the blind has worn off assuming both warriors have a target to hit and a window with 3 seconds? Pretty obvious which bar suffers from being adren based and the upside of being non-adren based.

Shendaar · Nov 12, 2008, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Another advantage of the WE bar that isn't so obvious is that you are a lot less likely to get stuck on frenzy when running Rush. Not losing adrenaline on most of your attacks makes spiking under frenzy a lot less risky.

Jeb Bush · Nov 12, 2008, 06:24 PM // 18:24

I frequently run a BR war bar like the one posted above. It does very big dmg too with 33%run. I prefer it to the WE war.

Byron · Nov 12, 2008, 07:16 PM // 19:16

BR ain't no good - it wipes adren.

WE doesn't need to change, methinks. Maybe a duration reduction so it can't be constantly maintained would take out some of the brainlessness.

For now, it'll become one of those things where you say, "Oh, endurance spike. They probably have 3 rends. We should split these guys."

kvndoom · Nov 12, 2008, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

BR ain't no good - it wipes adren.

WE doesn't need to change, methinks. Maybe a duration reduction so it can't be constantly maintained would take out some of the brainlessness.

For now, it'll become one of those things where you say, "Oh, endurance spike. They probably have 3 rends. We should split these guys."

It doesn't wipe adrenaline anymore when it ends. It's really not a bad skill like it used to be.