Curse

isamu kurosawa · Sep 07, 2008, 05:08 PM // 17:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

[Lightning Reflexes] - take double damage ([Frenzy] + [Frenzied Defense] in one).

It also has 3x the recharge of the skills you compare it to and is tied to the primary of a class that is supposed to have such defensive skills as opposed to one with beefy AL.

Robbert Monga · Sep 07, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

It also has 3x the recharge of the skills you compare it to and is tied to the primary of a class that is supposed to have such defensive skills as opposed to one with beefy AL.

It also takes only one skill slot and does not remove one effect when the other one is activated. As for AL - rangers have similar AL against elemental damage, which is the only non-armor ignoring type of damage that bypasses blocking.

N1ghtstalker · Sep 07, 2008, 06:07 PM // 18:07

[way of the master] is fine
scythe sins aren't that bad

[peace and harmony][wastrel's collapse][quicksand][word of censure] need a buff

[whirling] pathetic damage output for an elite

Tyla · Sep 07, 2008, 06:34 PM // 18:34

^
I agree. Kill scythe crits, then scythes are less stupid.

Infact, kill 'Sins 'cause their concept is dumb to begin with, and make scythe crits less stupid.

PS: Skills should only be looked at in terms of buffing when the game is more balanced, atleast in my opinion. Randomly buffing them could turn them into more shit to clean up.

Burton2000 · Sep 07, 2008, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Natural

Move it to E Storage.

Spotless Mind is absurd in arenas. Non-elite hex removal that's better than most elite hex removal is a scrubly way to skill balance hex stacking. Better to promote active shutdown than passive uber hex removal. Should be a 1 sec cast with a much higher recharge, given its effect.

Yea but its the only way a monk can try and keep up with loads of hexes as a single hex removal aint gonna do alot.

shoogi · Sep 07, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burton2000

The only way to nerf fc water is to nerf glowing ice to unusable.

QFT

123

Magikarp · Sep 07, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

Last skill balance thread has fallen by the wayside...now that mAT is over, what still sucks? This is in consideration of all formats that still have lingering problem skills...and new ones thanks to the randumb skill buffs.

Or does anyone even care anymore?

[Visions of Regret] - Really wonder why dom needed another pressure type hex. This gets really stupid in 4v4 with cheesy shit like backfire or combined with soul bind.

[Wastrel's Worry] - Not sure why this skill needed the damage buff in the first place.

[apply poison] - This should be a bow preparation. Other professions got poison tip sig with EoTN.

[escape] - This needs a PvP nerf, like 4s duration with 14 in expertise.

[rampage as one] - At a minimum reduce the IAS to 25% and make it stance.

[Otyugh's Cry] - Lock pet on monk and start mashing [enraged lunge], this is just stupid. Decrease duration by half or just totally kill / change the skill.

[savage pounce] - This only becomes a problem on RaO axes, but for posterity since it takes no skill to use increase recharge to 20s as disrupting lunge was.

[soul bind] - Skill change has been really bad, get rid of it.

[rend enchantments] - Back to 30s.

[rip enchantment] - 15s, if a Dervish enchantment is removed it recharges 50% faster.

[foul feast] - Reduce the energy gain to a maximum of 2 and reduce health gain some.

[plague sending] - Get rid of AoE effect, increase recharge to 10s. Changes to FF and plague sending are predicated on changes to condi spear spam (apply poison + barbed spear) and something being done about wounding strike.

[searing flames] - Adjacent AoE in PvP.

[shattering assault] - No longer unblockable. And that kills it, oh well.

[Wild strike] - 8s recharge, same as wild blow

[way of the assassin] - Still think IAS in the sin skill pool is an awful idea, especially one with no penalty or prerequisite as most IAS's have.

[critical defenses] - This should be a PvE skill.

[Way of the master] - Sins with scythes have added nothing interesting to the game, nerf it or makes it much more expensive / shorter duration.

[wounding strike] - The chilling victory change helped some, but at minimum this should be changed to deep wound over bleeding, as many suggested in the previous qq skill threads.

[rending touch] - Remove one of your enchantments, removal effect target touched for for loses one enchantment.

[barbed spear] - 4 adrenaline, just like sever artery. Only a problem on pack hunters.

Just a start on stuff I still don't like, flame away.

I sorta agree on escape, RaO, WS, and maybe FF... the rest is just whining.

Greedy Gus · Sep 07, 2008, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

the rest is just whining.

You're failing at cognition.

Magikarp · Sep 07, 2008, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

You're failing at cognition.

why? because complaining about skill balances is what gets us these threads? Its funny how all the good teams manage to compete against these skills, but the same group of people keep posting these threads out of the spite of not knowing how to play better. If you can't figure out how to beat Critical Defenses, then you might want to switch to WoW or AoC.

Krill · Sep 07, 2008, 09:27 PM // 21:27

You say "keep posting" as though this is a regular occurrence. To my knowledge this was the first qq skillz thread since the big update, first one in a few months for that matter. In reference to TA, since I started playing again back in March the only things that have really bothered me were the broken HC monk skills (fixed), SoM (fixed) and smiter's boon (fixed). The current hexway build is plenty beatable but VoR is still stupid as hell.

And I said clearly in comments afterwords I didn't really mean to post critical defenses but it was quoted before I could ninja edit it out.

Robbert Monga · Sep 07, 2008, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

why? because complaining about skill balances is what gets us these threads? Its funny how all the good teams manage to compete against these skills, but the same group of people keep posting these threads out of the spite of not knowing how to play better. If you can't figure out how to beat Critical Defenses, then you might want to switch to WoW or AoC.

because if a single skill or a skillbar requires teamwork to compete against, then it does mean it is overpowered. And what happens when _good_ teams uses a cheesy skillbars?
Can one beat Crit Defenses? Sure. One can also beat "balanced" blocking like Tactics attribute line offers. Yet in contrast tactics stances are conditional, offense reducing, and cannot be kept up 24/7 due to recharge/duration limitation. Neither of that applies to Critical Defenses. Yes, that does mean Critical Defenses is overpowered, and not that someone cannot figure out how to beat it.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

But if you're just one more guy pushing your views that everyone else is just complaining that they're not good enough to compete with button-mashers, then you're just one more person ruining guru.

I cannot agree more. There getting just way too many people around who post for the sole purpose of striking their e-peen by calling someone whiner/nub, regardless of context and reasoning provided.

Greedy Gus · Sep 07, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

why? because complaining about skill balances is what gets us these threads? Its funny how all the good teams manage to compete against these skills, but the same group of people keep posting these threads out of the spite of not knowing how to play better. If you can't figure out how to beat Critical Defenses, then you might want to switch to WoW or AoC.

Give me a break, this isn't a whine thread where scrubs are complaining that they can't win. This is a long overdue thread where someone has brought up many of the crap skills out there right now that make the various game formats less fun to play, that could probably use a look at for balancing (with the reasons posted alongside each in the OP) and they're all put together nicely in one place for discussion and reference.

I try to give people who post responses like yours the benefit of the doubt, just questioning your cognitive skills regarding the accuracy and tone of the OP. But if you're just one more guy pushing your views that everyone else is just complaining that they're not good enough to compete with button-mashers, then you're just one more person ruining guru.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

Its funny how all the good teams manage to compete against these skills, but the same group of people keep posting these threads out of the spite of not knowing how to play better.

This is such a poor argument, and I'll try to explain clearly why. In GW, the competitive nature dictates that there will always be "good teams" relative to others, and such teams will (by necessity) always be sufficiently adapted to the metagame. That means that given any random state of balance, no matter how poor it is, someone is still going to be good, and you will still be left here spamming your argument that the balance is fine because those current "good" teams are doing just fine.

Divinus Stella · Sep 07, 2008, 11:11 PM // 23:11

To be honest if they destroy glowing ice the template can just be changed, its currently only a 3 energy gain without an attument so its quite easy to sub in other forms of energy management.

Magikarp · Sep 07, 2008, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

Give me a break, this isn't a whine thread where scrubs are complaining that they can't win. This is a long overdue thread where someone has brought up many of the crap skills out there right now that make the various game formats less fun to play, that could probably use a look at for balancing (with the reasons posted alongside each in the OP) and they're all put together nicely in one place for discussion and reference.

I try to give people who post responses like yours the benefit of the doubt, just questioning your cognitive skills regarding the accuracy and tone of the OP. But if you're just one more guy pushing your views that everyone else is just complaining that they're not good enough to compete with button-mashers, then you're just one more person ruining guru.

This is such a poor argument, and I'll try to explain clearly why. In GW, the competitive nature dictates that there will always be "good teams" relative to others, and such teams will (by necessity) always be sufficiently adapted to the metagame. That means that given any random state of balance, no matter how poor it is, someone is still going to be good, and you will still be left here spamming your argument that the balance is fine because th
ose current "good" teams are doing just fine.

this is a joke right? please read my hundreds of previous post throughout my time on GWG and see im one of the biggest advocates of "skill balance" in all of guild wars. the majority of the skills lited by the op are NOT overpowered by any means. if you're saying a whole team or skill bar has to be devoted to beat a skill like FF, then you need a lesson in basic gameplay. Also, last time i checked, when was SF even meta? Rip and rend are essential to keeping passive enchantway from coming back, savage pounce is only good with RaO which i agreed needed nerfed, O's Cry is FAR from imba along with apply and wastrels, WotA, Barbed, and rending touch nerfs are practically a joke, and besides the skills i listed earlier that should be looked at, Soul Bind and WotM would be the only other 2 i'd throw in there.

btw, long overdue? do you post on gwg? there are over 9000 threads just like this once a week, where some guy throws all of the skills that do well in RA and says they're breaking the game. Besides RaO and the others i mentioned, the last REALLY messed up skills have been fixed (Boon, SoM, etc), so if you're still getting THAT screwed, take a look at what you're losing to and figure out the millions of simple counters like the rest of the people in this game do, instead of saying its broken and needs removed.

moriz · Sep 07, 2008, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

do you post on gwg? there are over 9000 threads just like this once a week, where some guy throws all of the skills that do well in RA and says they're breaking the game.

lulululullulululululululululululul

DarkNecrid · Sep 07, 2008, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

the majority of the skills lited by the op are NOT overpowered by any means.

Maybe it isn't so much if they are OP or not, but if they are fun or not. I'm not even going to point out how a majority of the skills in the OP actually are overpowered because they detract from skill choices, are powercreepish, or simply are too strong for their costs, but hey, the rest of the ones that aren't overpowered severly make the game less fun.

Are they beatable? Yes.

Signet of Ghostly Might when it was bugged was beatable too. Take a ton of anti-signet shit, woo. It doesn't make it any less boring nor overpowered.

There is a ton of messed up skills, the problem is is you seem content with the power creep, which is kind of sucky on your part.

Also SF is meta in HA, where it is a gimmick that works because of how HA is built. Not very common but it's still an overpowered skill that is plagued by power creep and restricts skill choice (which sucks).

But balancing isn't just about buffing and nerfing skills into equal but different and balanced. It's about doing that while making the environment fun to play in. Getting blocked 9 times out of 10 over and over (you aren't always guaranteed the tools in 4v4 to counter that), nor is getting all your skills which do require good active timing (like say Guardian) raped because of an unremovable near maintainable shout you can't counter without gimping your build fun. Nor are either of those things balanced. Pretty much every single skill in the OP is a problem somewhere, maybe it isn't a problem in GvG, (some of them aren't) but they are problem skills in HA and TA.

moriz · Sep 07, 2008, 11:43 PM // 23:43

when talking about skill balance, you must have a sense of what the "standard power" is. without this, you'll be endlessly making those stupid "if it can be countered, then it's not overpowered" comments.

for a competitive game to successfully establish itself, this standard of power must be strictly upheld. otherwise, you'll get powercreep that spirals out of control. izzy and anet lost sight of this standard for a little while; the result was nightfall.

Magikarp · Sep 07, 2008, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Maybe it isn't so much if they are OP or not, but if they are fun or not. I'm not even going to point out how a majority of the skills in the OP actually are overpowered because they detract from skill choices, are powercreepish, or simply are too strong for their costs, but hey, the rest of the ones that aren't overpowered severly make the game less fun.

Are they beatable? Yes.

Signet of Ghostly Might when it was bugged was beatable too. Take a ton of anti-signet shit, woo. It doesn't make it any less boring nor overpowered.

There is a ton of messed up skills, the problem is is you seem content with the power creep, which is kind of sucky on your part.

Also SF is meta in HA, where it is a gimmick that works because of how HA is built. Not very common but it's still an overpowered skill that is plagued by power creep and restricts skill choice (which sucks).

But balancing isn't just about buffing and nerfing skills into equal but different and balanced. It's about doing that while making the environment fun to play in. Getting blocked 9 times out of 10 over and over (you aren't always guaranteed the tools in 4v4 to counter that), nor is getting all your skills which do require good active timing (like say Guardian) raped because of an unremovable near maintainable shout you can't counter without gimping your build fun. Nor are either of those things balanced. Pretty much every single skill in the OP is a problem somewhere, maybe it isn't a problem in GvG, (some of them aren't) but they are problem skills in HA and TA.

but see to me, this is more of an opinionated view, rather than the objective way this thread comes across. Personally, i like the meta right now minus a few annoying builds, but again, thats me, and what you said is you and your opinion. THAT i can respect, but claiming a skill like otgu's cry is "overpowered".. well.. thats pretty absurd imo.

imo, (again) other than the few skills i agreed with, i feel like we should focus on less nerfing, and possibly more reworking/buffing, to keep our meta fresh, our skill pool diverse, and our pvp more of a guessing game. its no fun when there are only 2 teams to choose from, both being direct counters for one another.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

when talking about skill balance, you must have a sense of what the "standard power" is. without this, you'll be endlessly making those stupid "if it can be countered, then it's not overpowered" comments.

for a competitive game to successfully establish itself, this standard of power must be strictly upheld. otherwise, you'll get powercreep that spirals out of control. izzy and anet lost sight of this standard for a little while; the result was nightfall.

i agree with your "if it can be countered, then it's not overpowered" being a stupid, but right now, a lot of the skills the OP posted really aren't game breaking, nor powercreeping. I personally thought AoF and AoDisench would be majorly meta, but those have yet to see a lot of light. FF is borderline imo, RaO-still broken, etc, but tbh, skills like OCry, and Rip aren't even close. Powercreeps like SoM and Smiters Boon were nerfed/destroyed, so idk where this huge flux of game breaking skills are coming from.

edit: also Moriz, i totally agree with your izzy/nf comments, but passive defense and static meta are kinda gone now :/ . imo, balance is better than ever considering the huge amount of skills we have.

Bowstring Badass · Sep 07, 2008, 11:54 PM // 23:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

To be honest if they destroy glowing ice the template can just be changed, its currently only a 3 energy gain without an attument so its quite easy to sub in other forms of energy management.

Gole says hi.

Anyway I would love to see less used elites like Reapers Sweep buffed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

izzy and anet lost sight of this standard for a little while; the result was nightfall.

quoted for the f'n truth. Also izzy needs to get fired he is bad at what he doesn't do. Seriously fix stuff not make it useless (yes this is a flame about smiters boon).

Simple fix for scythe would be to lower the high end damage of it to 31 at max.

DarkNecrid · Sep 08, 2008, 04:31 AM // 04:31

Quote:

but see to me, this is more of an opinionated view, rather than the objective way this thread comes across. Personally, i like the meta right now minus a few annoying builds, but again, thats me, and what you said is you and your opinion. THAT i can respect, but claiming a skill like otgu's cry is "overpowered".. well.. thats pretty absurd imo.

It's a unstrippable ~99% maintable near free 100% unblockable combined with a skill that does close to or over 100 damage on a short recharge.

Quote:

imo, (again) other than the few skills i agreed with, i feel like we should focus on less nerfing, and possibly more reworking/buffing, to keep our meta fresh, our skill pool diverse, and our pvp more of a guessing game. its no fun when there are only 2 teams to choose from, both being direct counters for one another.

Yes, I sure liked Symbolic Strike and the other random buffs that have occured over the history of Guild Wars that always broke the game or were stupid.

You have to nerf things and bring the power level down before you go buffing things. All they ever do is wind up buffing things up to where the nerfed things were in power.

PvP shouldn't be a guessing game, it isn't Rock Paper Scissors. It should be a game of skill, with a number of viable balanced builds that are not direct counters to each other but give a lot of playstyle options.

This is pretty hard when pretty much every single skill in Nightfall (the campaign with the 2nd most used skills) is poorly designed and power creep. I sure love using 33% IAS's with no drawback what-so-ever. ho hum.

Quote:

Powercreeps like SoM and Smiters Boon were nerfed/destroyed, so idk where this huge flux of game breaking skills are coming from.

There is still a ton of power creep, the problem is a lot of the PC'd skills are needed to combat the other PC'd skills which means in order to really bring the power level of everything back down to what it should be you'd have to fix both sides and we're not getting another huge patch until the year 2715 apparently. This game hasn't been close to a real balanced state since GWFC where at least every skill was in check with one or another. Then again Anet decided to make all the NF skills overpowered on purpose so they could nerf them later, and they never really did, so w/e. But seriously you still have a ton of 33% IAS's with no real drawback, stances that replace 2 skills off of a ranger bar (hello Natural Stride), an elite healing spell that outheals and replaces every other Monk elite except for RC pretty much, a non-elite Ritualist skill that might as well have no drawback and is barely a lesser heal than said elite healing spell, and a huge list more.

If you want to create more options, start from there. Nerf the things that are making the other skills useless to a balanced level, not bring the balanced things to their overpowered level. It's the former that has ruined the game time and time again. I'd personally love to see BLight come back into play again, but you're going to do that by making WoH look less pretty, not make BLight stupid broken good and better than WoH. I'd love to see Ranger's using Distortion again since that is a good skill that is an example of pretty much why Prophecies was good, all the skills had some reward, and some drawback that rewards good play with the skills. But there's no point when Natural Stride blows Distortion (it's Distortion without a real drawback) and a run stance out of the water at the same time.

Also you guys rly need to stop saying it's all Izzy's fault, other people do skill balancing besides him and oversee his work. That and a lot of their focus is on GW2, so they don't have the manpower to really do what is needed to make GW1 better in the PvP department. If you're gonna blame someone, blame his balancing team at least, lol. Izzy seems to be the only one who has a clue, what with openly admitting the extra classes were a bad etc, etc.