Curse

Divinus Stella · Sep 01, 2008, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Yeh fix this fast because people still play TA.

urania · Sep 01, 2008, 06:39 PM // 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

format is irrelevant. the op was mostly qqing about powerful offensive skills. which are always cooler the more they make things explode. no matter where they are played.

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

oh im all for balance. but you see, balance, from different players' points of view, is relative.

and balance that encourages aggressive play is more fun.

and why does "button mash spam" seem to have a negative connotation round here? it's awesome. bash some poor sap til it drops. what could be more enjoyable? would you prefer "casual button pressing as you yawn and drink tea with your little pinky up"?

I lol'ed.

twice.

this is the kind of ppl RA produces and nurtures, I guess.
if ppl like you were in charge of the skill balance we'd still have the old sand shards and angorodon gaze spam around...along with all the rit spikes and so on and so fort.

Boogz · Sep 01, 2008, 10:26 PM // 22:26

/agree with urania

btw, how was this sand shards spam?

crucifix · Sep 01, 2008, 10:47 PM // 22:47

When the NF pvp teaser was released, sand shards did its dmg when you "missed" with an attack. that means it triggers on failed dual attacks.

d/a
-way of empty palm
-exhausting assault
-sand shards

it was friggin AWESOME!!!! it was nerfed about 3-4 hours after it was found.

Zena Starlight · Sep 01, 2008, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boogz

/agree with urania

btw, how was this sand shards spam?

If you were asking how it works, before sand shards dealt damage when any attack was missed. People spammed dual attacks (which auto recharged when missed) repeatedly with Way of the Empty Palm dealing lots of aoe damage depending on how fast you could click.

Boogz · Sep 01, 2008, 11:47 PM // 23:47

i lol'd, but it seems less OP than the cultist's fervor doomspike

wuzzman · Sep 02, 2008, 02:48 AM // 02:48

I missed the days when people actually knew how to play the game instead trollingwhinningbitchingdickwaving posting "i can't play cause these skills are in the game" threads. but meh people seem to forget, there seems to direct correlation between the amount of usable skills in the game and the amount of people who still pvp. so anet fix this fast, cause I think there is still people who play TA, and we all know how pvp'ers love it when their playerbase moves on to pve and ra.

DarkNecrid · Sep 02, 2008, 04:42 AM // 04:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

I missed the days when people actually knew how to play the game instead trollingwhinningbitchingdickwaving posting "i can't play cause these skills are in the game" threads. but meh people seem to forget, there seems to direct correlation between the amount of usable skills in the game and the amount of people who still pvp. so anet fix this fast, cause I think there is still people who play TA, and we all know how pvp'ers love it when their playerbase moves on to pve and ra.

pretty sure no one with a brain is saying they can't play the game cause the skills are in the game, at all.

X Cytherea X · Sep 02, 2008, 05:51 AM // 05:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

this is the kind of ppl RA produces and nurtures, I guess.
if ppl like you were in charge of the skill balance we'd still have the old sand shards and angorodon gaze spam around...along with all the rit spikes and so on and so fort.

there are more of us than you think. probably more than you. but most dont post here. they're in the game, kicking ass. but i post cuz i care about the fun of us all.

izzy was a great skill balancer. it's sad when he gets pressured into nerfing good skills into shit. and criticized when he buffs shit into good skills. if only he'd stick to his original intuitions. yeah i wish i could be part of skill balance. he and i have similar tastes.

Quote:

pretty sure no one with a brain is saying they can't play the game cause the skills are in the game, at all.

if you read between the lines, that's what they're saying.

Kyp Jade · Sep 02, 2008, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

there are more of us than you think. probably more than you. but most dont post here. they're in the game, kicking ass. but i post cuz i care about the fun of us all.

izzy was a great skill balancer. it's sad when he gets pressured into nerfing good skills into shit. and criticized when he buffs shit into good skills. if only he'd stick to his original intuitions. yeah i wish i could be part of skill balance. he and i have similar tastes.

if you read between the lines, that's what they're saying.

I'm not one to flame people often, but you make it hard.
Your idea of fun is why a lot of us quit the game, and its why your type is all thats mostly left

DreamWind · Sep 02, 2008, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boogz

i lol'd, but it seems less OP than the cultist's fervor doomspike

Of course it was....because doomspike was beyond OP...it was a bug in the game that never should have existed. Why do I bring it up? Because you still had retards and even some "well respected pvp experts" arguing that it wasn't overpowered. It just goes to show you that there are tons of people who have no idea what the hell they are talking about, and Izzy is potentially one of them.

There is a reason this game has gone down the crapper. Why do you think the Koreans and Ensign (and 90% of everybody else respectable) quit?

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

izzy was a great skill balancer. it's sad when he gets pressured into nerfing good skills into shit. and criticized when he buffs shit into good skills. if only he'd stick to his original intuitions.

Uh no...whats sad is when Anet is pressured into listening to people like you in regards to balance, thus destroying the game that used to be amazing.

Krill · Sep 02, 2008, 01:19 PM // 13:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

but meh people seem to forget, there seems to direct correlation between the amount of usable skills in the game and the amount of people who still pvp. so anet fix this fast, cause I think there is still people who play TA, and we all know how pvp'ers love it when their playerbase moves on to pve and ra.

What are you getting at here? Bad skill needs to stay bad unless it's buffed into a skill that balances something else out.

360° · Sep 02, 2008, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

[protective spirit] n00b.

VoR by itself is Manageable. Wastrel's by itself is manageable. Get both on you and life begins to suck unless you have an assload of hex removal, which really doesn't exist. Mesmers and Necros rule 4v4 right now. WTB 5e BLight and/or 5e Divert. Dream on...

Make it life steal then. End of OT.

Riotgear · Sep 02, 2008, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

izzy was a great skill balancer. it's sad when he gets pressured into nerfing good skills into shit. and criticized when he buffs shit into good skills. if only he'd stick to his original intuitions. yeah i wish i could be part of skill balance. he and i have similar tastes.

The problem is that the blanket "buffs good nerfs bad" mentality only really belongs in PvE where your character is sort of an "investment." NPCs don't complain about imbalanced shit, and players only complain about it when it marginalizes them. Having ridiculous win-button skills in PvP forces everyone towards those skills to stay competitive.

Izzy doesn't just buff trash into good skills, he's been repeatedly buffing trash into really overpowered skills, and the reversion of those buffs either takes much longer or doesn't happen at all. Just look at the mess TA has become.

Quote:

and why does "button mash spam" seem to have a negative connotation round here? it's awesome. bash some poor sap til it drops. what could be more enjoyable?

Because button-mash gimmicks let terrible players win. Terrible players don't deserve to win until they stop being terrible.

AshenX · Sep 02, 2008, 07:31 PM // 19:31

overpowered offensive skills are appealing to some who prefer a more visceral game where adrenaline is more than just a game mechanic. On the other hand they can kill tactical play.

There is not alot of time for maneuver and strategy in a contest of, "who can push the nuke the other guy into radioactive dust button first."

Both the aggressive offensive mentality and the tactical thinker are valid play styles which is why threads like this are important. The game needs to make sure that both sides are getting at least some of what they need to enjoy the game.

Note that the OP didnt ask for the removal of some of the best active play offensive skills in the game. He is mainly addressing very passive or spam oriented skills that he believes require little or no player skill to use.

Ultipmately I agree with some of the requests and not with others but the OP's basic approach works for me. None of his suggestions would ruin a skill (although I like the option of using apply poison with non-bow weapons) or play in general. None of them would prevent a player from running a tail-kicking, name taking, head-chopping aggressive offensive character.

Similarly there is nothing terrible about wanting to play such an offensive slayer. Just do it with skill. Finesse is a good thinig, even when wielding a massive axe.

X Cytherea X · Sep 02, 2008, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Having ridiculous win-button skills in PvP forces everyone towards those skills to stay competitive.

1. buff counters
2. buff alternatives

Quote:

Because button-mash gimmicks let terrible players win. Terrible players don't deserve to win until they stop being terrible.

playing a popular powerful build doesnt make a player terrible. and a terrible player playing a popular powerful build isnt auto-win.
true, it may be easier. but that's a given in any modern mmo especially this one, with obs mode, pvp characters, wiki, and skill/equipment templates.

i dont play most of these builds btw. in fact i hate some of them. but i dont call for their nerfage cuz they have their place imho.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AshenX

overpowered offensive skills are appealing to some who prefer a more visceral game where adrenaline is more than just a game mechanic. On the other hand they can kill tactical play.

There is not alot of time for maneuver and strategy in a contest of, "who can push the nuke the other guy into radioactive dust button first."

Both the aggressive offensive mentality and the tactical thinker are valid play styles which is why threads like this are important. The game needs to make sure that both sides are getting at least some of what they need to enjoy the game.

Note that the OP didnt ask for the removal of some of the best active play offensive skills in the game. He is mainly addressing very passive or spam oriented skills that he believes require little or no player skill to use.

Ultipmately I agree with some of the requests and not with others but the OP's basic approach works for me. None of his suggestions would ruin a skill (although I like the option of using apply poison with non-bow weapons) or play in general. None of them would prevent a player from running a tail-kicking, name taking, head-chopping aggressive offensive character.

Similarly there is nothing terrible about wanting to play such an offensive slayer. Just do it with skill. Finesse is a good thinig, even when wielding a massive axe.

i agree with the general idea of this post. still disagree with most of the "fixes".

DarkNecrid · Sep 02, 2008, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

1. buff counters
2. buff alternatives

Having counter != balanced. Having a lot of counters to a lot of specific shit in a game where you can't predict whats coming at you unless if you are in PvE = BAD.

jesus RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO I swear to god if i or anyone else ever has to say this again I will implode.

Quote:

playing a popular powerful build doesnt make a player terrible. and a terrible player playing a popular powerful build isnt auto-win.
true, it may be easier. but that's a given in any modern mmo especially this one, with obs mode, pvp characters, wiki, and skill/equipment templates.

i dont play most of these builds btw. in fact i hate some of them. but i dont call for their nerfage cuz they have their place imho.

They require very little skill. We should want skillful builds in play because those have a learning curve, and reward better play. A Shock Axe bar is very balanced, but it's easy to see who is a bad Shock Axe and who is a good Shock Axe, and who is a very good Shock Axe.

Anyone could play any of the builds the skills in the OP are used for at a very good "skill level", in less than 30 minutes. Guaranteed.

Riotgear · Sep 02, 2008, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

1. buff counters
2. buff alternatives

Do you really think it's better to waste time buffing everything to meet the level of one overpowered skill, or to just fix that skill? How strong anything is is always relative to the situations it's being used in. Buffing one skill to overpowered levels is effectively making EVERY alternative weaker, which is why overpowered skills are one of the worst things for the game.

You can either try to reestablish balance and carefully stick to your ridiculous mantra of "only make things better" until you get it right after 50 iterations and have to change mechanics down to the very core of the game ("this skill does too much damage, so we need to give everyone 200 more max HP!"), or you can just restore normalcy by fixing that one skill.

What exactly is so terrible about nerfing overpowered shit back down to where it belongs?

Quote:

playing a popular powerful build doesnt make a player terrible.

Did I say that? No. Overpowered button-mash builds become popular, that does not mean all popular builds are overpowered button-mash shit.

Quote:

and a terrible player playing a popular powerful build isnt auto-win.

No, but it should be just about auto-lose. In a well-balanced game, players earn their victories.

ac1inferno · Sep 02, 2008, 11:38 PM // 23:38

[Scavenger Strike] - Your animal companion attempts a Scavenger Strike that deals +10...22 damage. If the attack strikes a foe who is suffering from a condition, you gain 3...13 Energy.

At an Expertise of 11 and a Beast Mastery at 12, Bunny Thumpers gain 10 energy every 10 seconds, therefor keeping their energy up and allowing them to spam [Rampage As One]. Nobody mentions this?

moriz · Sep 02, 2008, 11:41 PM // 23:41

one thing izzy should address is not actually the skills themselves. rather, he should take a look at the interaction between mesmer fast casting and non-mesmer spells/signets.

i'm talking about the fc water mesmer of course. by abusing fast casting, we now have a secondary elementalist being more powerful than a primary elementalist at casting water spells. the spells themselves do not weaken perceptibly at 12 water, and the FC effect makes them effectively impossible to interrupt.

a mesmer with an ele secondary should not be more powerful than an elementalist primary while using ele spells. either make fast casting have reduced effect with secondary spells/signets (say, half as effective), or just make it not affect non-mesmer spells/signets.