Curse

Our Lady Of Sorrow · Sep 14, 2008, 08:48 PM // 20:48

bored, looking for build inspiration today.. and i noticed a very boring thing in halls.. everything is the same.. this is really upsetting.. everything is the same.. there is not diversity in builds.. there are no unique builds.. back in oldschool 8v8, every guild/team had different play styles and builds.. eg. mantra of conc on a monk

Mo/Me - we know this wont change for a while, but its still same in every team (x2)

we have a rit or n/rt on slot #6.. all teams need WoW and support heals (life/kaolai) to split (cap points) and antimelee on ghost (koth) along with some spike dmg (all other maps/objectives)

next is #5.. the mesmer.. all teams need antispike/interupt/shutdown.. yet they all have rend.. all doing the same job in halls of sitting on 40/40 diversion/shame, and crying spikes and pd ghosts/songs

#3/4.. all teams need aoe.. *thinks* fire is good aoe

so lets run 2, so they can split, and take utility (/p, /rt, /mo) same old same old heats for pressure and rodgort for spikes.

#1/2 - can vary from team to team.. but 80+% of the time, its 2 physicals. war, derv, para, ranger, ass.. this is understandable, like the monks.. all teams need a bit of phys (except for casterspike)

rundown.. all builds are the same.. (with exceptions ofc) its all because of the HoH mechanics. all teams take make haste, song, wow, grasp, foes (or try to)

my suggestion: oldschool holding. reason? it will take out the copy skills, such as haste, foes, grasp, and so forth. and use a slightly higher variety of skills. it may not be the best suggestion, but we need ideas, and HOPEFULLY, someone will sit down and think "we have RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed over HAers for so long now, lets help them fix their arena".. unlikely.. but worth a shot?

Davey.

Rhamia Darigaz · Sep 14, 2008, 08:53 PM // 20:53

a game doesn't get more balanced than two teams with the same build.

Nibbit · Sep 14, 2008, 09:02 PM // 21:02

/signed

good old days

Kyp Jade · Sep 14, 2008, 09:09 PM // 21:09

tombs today is built on puggable builds.

Back then, builds were determined by a two things.
Guild
Pug

Guilds
-----
Good guilds always had thier own build, something they made, and they run.
Bad guilds copied, and worked hard to be able to run those builds

Pugs
-------
Try to copy a guilds build
Run one of a handful of well known builds
Run bottom level trash

Today unfortunatly, creativity is gone.
People choose aoe over splittable characters for cap pts. And after a few months of this, people believe this to be the only way to play HoH cap pts.

Ward v foes is the only real snare (say hi to aura of stability for killing relic runs)

"Top" guilds choose to run a pug build, when they could easily run thier own

======
And I hear you about everyone taking a rt or n/rt. But WoW is too strong to not take (nerf plz), and use it to babysit the ghost. Putting it on a rit is just because there arent any other options that give you the same toolbox a rit does.
a) WoW
b) party heals
c) 2-3 spaces for utility skills, just most ppl use standard splinter rts

Just another example of anet overbuffing something that doesnt belong.

Our Lady Of Sorrow · Sep 14, 2008, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz

a game doesn't get more balanced than two teams with the same build.

balanced, but boring..

@Kyp.
my main arguement here, is that all teams need these skills (none others work) to win.. you dont win relics without haste and wards.. (well.. you never know..)
no guilds run their own builds.. when they are more than capable of doing it.. but some do.. and it ends up the same.. "we need phys, so war and derv, we need aoe, so 2 fire ele, we need interupts, pd mes, we need support, rit, we need heals, 2 monks. we need running boosts, take it on the ele, we need more hex removal, but it on other ele, we need conc, put it on one pys or the rit or e/p.. OMG, its the same as what we were just running.. we fail"

Pierce the Anger · Sep 14, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Observer Mode is largely to blame. It has destroyed all creativity and ingenuity from the game. Why should I even try to synergize skills when I can gimp with a build off observer. To bad Anet spent alot of cash to pay for programming that will never be used. Yet another example of a mismanaged product. There was much more energy to the game when people actually had to think. I remember forming a team wondering wondering what the hell those guys are holding for 2 hours with, and then going in to beat it. ^^ good times....Now too many nublings need'n an easy way out.

Ben-A-BoO · Sep 14, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

I see were you are coming from:
Only a few skills that outperform many others in order to ensure an objective is met.But I don't think that is the main problem of Tombs aka Halls these days.

Look at the standard GvG Shock Axe Warrior Bar. People run this bar/position for years and yet it stays fun challenging to master. It's not the build that should matter but your skill and team coordination that make even a 100th night gaming exciting.

The main problem of halls is the decline of veterans and/or absence of new motivated players, making it hard to pug and tough for guilds to remain stable. This is because the game is very old and very few meta breaking new content is added. In other words:

Yes, I am all in for a HoH dedicated update,

Mainly to objectives and maybe a few skills. But reviving the old? That won't solve anything. I rather have tweaked objectives (like the ones back in the days Lorekeeper suggested) and new maps, then just having Iway and holding builds back.

So, no for bringing back old tombs.

Kyp Jade · Sep 14, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55

@lady, were on the same page, ive been griping about those issues since before I quit some time ago.

I also believe it wouldnt be too big of an issue of cap pts were gone as well, relic running still allows for people to build however they want. But capture points has pigeonholed everyone to bringing as much aoe as they can cram into a build. Which leads to the situation you described above a lot faster than a different objective might.

Take it from my own experience, I used to run a 1W 3P build, that took advantage of the fact that very few prot monks could keep up with my target switching (and its even better now thanks to SB nerf). The build had no aoe to speak of. I could crush koth and relic run no sweat, but capture points was something we couldnt handle, couldnt split, couldnt aoe.

The thing is, after people put all that aoe in thier build, they have very few choices on what else they can run. So again, they are further pigeonholed into bringing a ritualist to carry the rest of the utility, and a mesmer to deal with the shutdown tasks.

Right now, people are strongly urged to take a earth ele just because it cockblocks iway, but there are other things you can do, just not as well as this ele can, which is why everyone takes one.

End result, most builds look the same, with a few skill tweaks here or there.

tyrant rex · Sep 14, 2008, 11:11 PM // 23:11

yes lets give them the option to overload on more defense really good idea.......... yes the balance templates in halls are similar but guess what happens when similar templates face each other , the better team wins

Kyp Jade · Sep 15, 2008, 07:56 AM // 07:56

State of HA

HA servers need a serious boost to bandwidth, had teamwide problems 4 times tonight so far.

lursey · Sep 15, 2008, 09:08 AM // 09:08

if you feel bored in HA builds, try to run some lame build like iway with 99999 armour and absorb damage, can't even heal hero, roll your luck to a 3-way map, and try to gank a team that you like (which is a great tactics)

I think that's what "some guild" do to spend their time, making fun of the ganked team and making HA less boring to them I suppose.

Dismiss the Cynic · Sep 15, 2008, 03:15 PM // 15:15

After years of gw bars got compressed to (allmost) maximum efficiency. Why would you run something that is worse than the meta?

Kyp Jade · Sep 15, 2008, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dismiss the Cynic

After years of gw bars got compressed to (allmost) maximum efficiency. Why would you run something that is worse than the meta?

Because my worse than meta build kills most teams in under a minute

Killed u man · Sep 15, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz

a game based around the 8 skills on your bar doesn't get more boringthan two teams with the same build.

fix'd

123456

Martin Firestorm · Sep 15, 2008, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierce the Anger

Observer Mode is largely to blame. It has destroyed all creativity and ingenuity from the game. Why should I even try to synergize skills when I can gimp with a build off observer. To bad Anet spent alot of cash to pay for programming that will never be used. Yet another example of a mismanaged product.

And yet everyone begged for it for months before it was added.

Kyp Jade · Sep 15, 2008, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Observer mode is nice for people like me, who quit for a few months. I can pop on observer, see what meta balanced looks like, and put a build together from there.

Observer mode is bad, because lazy people just copy. Instead of taking inspiration from a build, they copy skill for skill.

Dismiss the Cynic · Sep 15, 2008, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Because my worse than meta build kills most teams in under a minute

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Observer mode is bad, because lazy people just copy. Instead of taking inspiration from a build, they copy skill for skill.

So why isnt everybody running your amazing build ? Also a possibility to watch games that have been played is necessary for any game that claims to be somewhat competive.

Kyp Jade · Sep 15, 2008, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dismiss the Cynic

So why isnt everybody running your amazing build ? Also a possibility to watch games that have been play is necessary for any game that claims to be somewhat competive.

Having a good build and having the players that can run it arent the same thing.

TogoTheTiger · Sep 15, 2008, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Because my worse than meta build kills most teams in under a minute

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyp Jade

Having a good build and having the players that can run it arent the same thing.

That's an oxy-moron. "My worse than meta build kills." "Having good players." Maybe you know good players than can make your shitty build win sometimes. Maybe they would never lose if they had a real build instead of yours.

Killed u man · Sep 15, 2008, 08:50 PM // 20:50

You guys are fighting over something redicilous.

Kyp can beat people with a better build, it's called Build Wars, and it's 99% of GW. (Kyp is a good player, and a nice guy tough)

All my builds are original and usually beat any meta build (Nightmare Weapon, SoTS spike, Ritspike, etc.), but that has got nothing to do with the fact that HoH conditions still suck.

HoH WAS better 3 years ago. Not ackowledging this shows you didn't play during this time. Hyper-defensive builds have ALWAYS existed, and will ALWAYS exist when U have KoTH-based objective in HoH.

The thing is, however, that these builds are MADE to either apply enough pressure, or spike, to the enemy team, to take them down.

Especially with NF, which brought us more than enough overpowered offensive skills, holding builds won't be a problem. In the old days, another problem was enchantments. Healing Seed = win. It was that simple.
You had [Natures Renewal], [Shatter Enchantment],[Well of The Profane] and [Order of Apostasy] as the main enchant removals. (The only other I can really recall is [Inspired Enchantment])
Most teams only had 1 of these, so yeah, hyper holding through enchantments was a logical consequence, as these enchant removals weren't sufficent enough to take a team with 3 Monks down.

And as a final arguement, no matter HOW many Monks, Rits and Paragons you bring, a half-decent spike will ALWAYS cut through layers of defence.

In the old days:
[Oppressive Gaze]
[Shadow Strike]
[Vampiric Gaze]
[Barbed Signet]
[Lightning Orb]
[Dual Shot]
[Obsidian Flame]
could kick any hyper-defensive build out like it was nothing. (Mainly Bloodspike with their prot-ignoring ghostly spike)

Now, in a KoTH scenario, I can imagine these:

[Nightmare Weapon]
[Shadow Strike]
[Vampiric Gaze]
[Lightning Orb]
[Forked Arrow]
[Obsidian Flame]
[Discord]
[Channeled Strike]
...

taking down hyper-defensive builds with ease.

Hyper-defensive builds was never the problem, no skill balance in the past was...
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