Curse

øln · Dec 13, 2008, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Just a note, it's not just up to izzy to decide when/what will get changed, so don't blame him for everything.

Tyla · Dec 13, 2008, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

that was their intention with this update: to introduce fun new options.

I somehow doubt they put any thought into that. They introduce a new set of hexes ready to be used in a hexway that will probably be dumb, and an incredible amount of other things tightening bars even more. You can nerf things and still have more options too, but power creep versus power creep just isn't on.

DreamWind · Dec 13, 2008, 03:39 PM // 15:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Pluto-

Update just epitomizes what I think is the biggest issue with Izzy's design philosophy. Mainly, in that it shows Izzy doesn't really seem to have one. Time after time, I just looks like Izzy really has no idea how he wants this game to play. Bsurge is the most obvious example. On one hand, it gets ether renewal'd, then buffed up to be better than it ever was in the first place. We already went through the problem of sins having broken shadow steps and off-dual-off-dual chains. Why the hell is Izzy reintroducing these, going back to how it was before? It wasn't fun then (that's why it was nerfed), and it sure as hell isn't going to be fun this time either.

People have been saying this for 3 years...

I mean seriously, how stupid has this game become when we KNOW that every single skill update is going to have something broken that needs to be fixed in the future? Think about it.

ensoriki · Dec 13, 2008, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

these were not random buffs. they thought long and hard about them.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Arena..._December_2008

that was their intention with this update: to introduce fun new options. think about it, if they only ever worked with the skills currently in use, fine-tuning and tweaking them, but never introducing anything else, the game would just become more and more limited and stale. that isnt the way to go, this update is. try to appreciate the effort.

that said, keep all the sin changes.

WAIT wut.
See they had reasoning behind their changes, doesn't mean they did them well.

See Mark of Insecurity being 90% on stances is all find and dandy, but 5 energy for 90% on enchantments?
See I realize MoI is in Deadly arts, and for it to be useful for dagger sins, it's going to need to be effective at a low level while not becoming imba at high levels of DA.
However 90% enchantments for 5 energy, on the recharge and duration it has is kinda...0_o. They should just make it 50 or 60% on enchantments, All MoI is doing is making it so sins have to wait a second after guardian goes up before attacking.
How is MoI not going to be annoying? Unless you have hex removal, sure some hex removal has been increased (peace and harmory), but it's still a nuisance.

Palm strike???

Seeping is fine, will get it's own niche....if only Shameful fear was quick and inexpensive we could try some bad gimmick stuff with that.

The ideas are good, but why is Palm strike 4 recharge when it can now cripple?

X Cytherea X · Dec 13, 2008, 04:17 PM // 16:17

what kind of sin are you? cry when buffed? prefer to be weak?

palm strike ohnoez 4r touch with crip... cripshot is 2r, ranged and (also)unblockable.

Quote:

I somehow doubt they put any thought into that. They introduce a new set of hexes ready to be used in a hexway that will probably be dumb, and an incredible amount of other things tightening bars even more. You can nerf things and still have more options too, but power creep versus power creep just isn't on.

Quote:

Update just epitomizes what I think is the biggest issue with Izzy's design philosophy. Mainly, in that it shows Izzy doesn't really seem to have one. Time after time, I just looks like Izzy really has no idea how he wants this game to play. Bsurge is the most obvious example. On one hand, it gets ether renewal'd, then buffed up to be better than it ever was in the first place. We already went through the problem of sins having broken shadow steps and off-dual-off-dual chains. Why the hell is Izzy reintroducing these, going back to how it was before? It wasn't fun then (that's why it was nerfed), and it sure as hell isn't going to be fun this time either.

Quote:

People have been saying this for 3 years...

I mean seriously, how stupid has this game become when we KNOW that every single skill update is going to have something broken that needs to be fixed in the future? Think about it.

speak for yourselves.

nerfs were due to pressure from qqers.

but recently they decided they were right all along...

that "power creep" (which really shouldnt have a negative connotation) is cooler than power regress.

so we have a bunch of buffs instead.

there has been some back and forth but now they are on the right track.

Mash Legend · Dec 13, 2008, 04:19 PM // 16:19

i can c the good parts of haivng pvp and pve skill splits... so why the hell arnt they using it??? paras have been ripped to peices. the skills are totaly useless now.. i dont even play para but wdf? and as for the warrior skills there just normal skills with a bit extra. nt even original..

aura of the lich has been broken. at least b4 it gave a little bit to a veriaty to playing an MM, most of these updates are crap. also on the other hand, what is the boss with aura of the lich guna use it for???? there are no corpses in the ring of fire -.-

DreamWind · Dec 13, 2008, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

speak for yourselves.

nerfs were due to pressure from qqers.

but recently they decided they were right all along...

that "power creep" (which really shouldnt have a negative connotation) is cooler than power regress.

so we have a bunch of buffs instead.

there has been some back and forth but now they are on the right track.

Uh no...nerfs were due to stupidness taking over the metagame. All I can say is...if you think power creep isn't negative and Anet is on the right track when it comes to knowing how to balance a competitive game...you are nuts.

moriz · Dec 13, 2008, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

what kind of sin are you? cry when buffed? prefer to be weak?

palm strike ohnoez 4r touch with crip... cripshot is 2r, ranged and (also)unblockable.

except, cripshot is dodgeable and has LoS (which makes it avoidable), doesn't do 75 armor ignoring damage, cripples for half of palm strike's duration, and does not count as an offhand. the two cannot be directly compared

Tyla · Dec 13, 2008, 05:04 PM // 17:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

what kind of sin are you? cry when buffed? prefer to be weak?

palm strike ohnoez 4r touch with crip... cripshot is 2r, ranged and (also)unblockable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moriz

except, cripshot is dodgeable and has LoS (which makes it avoidable), doesn't do 75 armor ignoring damage, cripples for half of palm strike's duration, and does not count as an offhand. the two cannot be directly compared

This, and Cripshot is a LOT easier to interrupt. You're also based on ranged combat as a Ranger whereas you're based on melee combat as an Assassin. Another point is that it's harder to fake out a Cripshot as the ability to cancel attack skills is only available when you open your inventory, and when you do that you obstruct your battlefield view a tad.

Also, because people use Assassin as their primary doesn't mean to say they don't think they should be killed.

Quote:

speak for yourselves.

nerfs were due to pressure from qqers.

but recently they decided they were right all along...

that "power creep" (which really shouldnt have a negative connotation) is cooler than power regress.

so we have a bunch of buffs instead.

there has been some back and forth but now they are on the right track.

wut.

You do realise that buffing the shit out of everything decreases viability of various other builds, whereas nerfing will actually increase viability of other builds.

Also, "cooler" doesn't equate to "balanced", the latter being what PvP should be. If you want "uber cool mega domagey shit" then you should stick to PvE, and the same should be said about all of the stupidity cropping up in all of these skills. PvP should be as balanced as possible in all games.

Nemo the Capitalist · Dec 13, 2008, 05:23 PM // 17:23

*********Poor IZZY**********

You can truly never satisfy the community of ingrates and wanna be divas

"Let the wanderers dream while the wise harvest"

~Master Togo

moriz · Dec 13, 2008, 05:28 PM // 17:28

and master togo died. what's your point again?

ensoriki · Dec 13, 2008, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

what kind of sin are you? cry when buffed? prefer to be weak?

palm strike ohnoez 4r touch with crip... cripshot is 2r, ranged and (also)unblockable.

What kind of sin am I?
Im a sin like everyone else, except I like to have fun, and my fun does not mean pressing a button and winning.

Now in it's defense Palm Strike is not as bad as I had initially thougt. However I have only tried 1 build out of many, and so it could be bad.
MOI is stupid to have at 90% against enchantments, stances not so much, but enchantments....be teh important.
MoI does not have a long recharge, and its energy cost is only 5.
One second cast means any ranger worth his salt could interrupt it, if he needed too unless the lag was bad. However is MoI going to be a must interrupt skill? Im sure there will be situations where if a Sin has MoI a team is going to want the ranger to take it out, and then they continue with their business but....is there not more pressing skills for a ranger to tend to?
The issue with MOI from my opinion is it's too effective vs enchantments for it's costs.
12 Dagger mastery, 13 crit and I can pump everything else into DA and get myself 16 secs worth of MoI. This doesn't just become helpful to sins, it's helpful to everyone on the team, because you get this up, and if the Monk does not have enough Hex removal (though PnH and some other skills will laugh at this) you just need about a warrior and a sin to take whatever down.
Heck you can have the sin cast this, let him go to his own business and less the warriors deal with the monk. Was able to do this in TA and get 7 wins, until I had to leave, don't know if I would've gotten any farther.
We ran into a Monk,2 wars and a mesmer, They wanted monk taken out first, so we were about to group on the monk when all I did was MoI, the enchants were down so quickly, the monk was simply Knocked down and killed, by the 2 wars, while I went after the mesmer who was distracted with my monk.
If the enchant thing was just toned down a bit, it be cool.

Quote:

speak for yourselves.

nerfs were due to pressure from qqers.

but recently they decided they were right all along...

that "power creep" (which really shouldnt have a negative connotation) is cooler than power regress.

so we have a bunch of buffs instead.

there has been some back and forth but now they are on the right track.

I don't mind buffs, but, does MoI need to be 90% vs enchants, seems like being 90% causes it to do it's purpose better then it should.
They say they want it to be so it's an alternative to shadow stepping and that it's effective for sins.
50/60 or 70% would've done that just fine.
A 10 second enchantment lasts 1 second, simply 1 second. You might roll your eyes, but thats pretty significant, before MoI made a 10 sec enchantment last 5 seconds.
It's reducing 90% for no attribute cost! I think sins should have utility, but, enchants are important.
Maybe im overreacting, I am a retard afterall.

Krill · Dec 13, 2008, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Palm Strike is kinda stupid, but the only dangerous sin builds (read: not asscaster) these days are unblockables or spikes with Blades of Steel. For obvious reasons Palm Strike doesn't set either up very well.

Overall I just hope after new builds settle in Izzy keeps an eye on them and doesn't let every format get trashed by tab hexing...

shoogi · Dec 13, 2008, 07:30 PM // 19:30

When will people learn to just stop arguing with cytherea, none of us is as good RA sin as he is, he has 4k glad points from playing sin in RA only, he is so good he can ignore prots on his target since they fail and he is teh l33t, and he is also a lot smarter than any of us, and has a very good conception of game balance.

@topic
What pisses me off the most is that with all those changes, WE and rend weren't touched.

X Cytherea X · Dec 13, 2008, 08:40 PM // 20:40

aw thx. i got a little choked up there tbh

Quote:

the two cannot be directly compared

you just did, seeing their pros/cons, both seem about right for what they do.

Quote:

You do realise that buffing the shit out of everything decreases viability of various other builds, whereas nerfing will actually increase viability of other builds.

1. overbuffing decreases the viability of other builds,
but we have cool shit exploding
2. buffing just right introduces more options...
and we might have the perfect, varied meta, where many skills and professions are viable... but that is a utopia we can only dream of
3. overnerfing decreases the viability of other builds...
and leaves us with... stale wars
4. nerfing just right introduces more options...
consisting of weak, boring skills at best... but inevitably, the best skills will still be found... and guess what that leaves us with (see #3)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

cool story

Tyla · Dec 13, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

1. overbuffing decreases the viability of other builds,
but we have cool shit exploding

So I guess that MoI isn't overbuffing?

Quote:

2. buffing just right introduces more options...
and we might have the perfect, varied meta, where many skills and professions are viable... but that is a utopia

If you're buffing stuff you do know that you'll eventually have to take stronger counters, meaning that it reduces options in build versatility turning things one-dimensional to counter another and reducing the game to rock-paper-scissors... right?

Quote:

3. overnerfing decreases the viability of other builds...
and leaves us with... stale wars

And R-P-S isn't stale? A lot of things need nerfing, and then you buff things to a similar level. Putting them at a power level based on what you can have as health or armour, and balancing them like that would probably be the best bit, although with this many skills the next best thing is to restrict usage of skills.

Quote:

4. nerfing just right introduces more options...
consisting of weak, boring skills... but inevitably, the best skills will still be found... and guess what that leaves us with (see #3)

[frenzy]

That is a balanced skill. If you balance besides armour, health and mechanics, it'd be better. If you make skills based on risk/reward, but keeping active playability and having the reward worth the risk as long as you have the skill to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shoogi

When will people learn to just stop arguing with cytherea

Because it's awesome.

I Angra I · Dec 13, 2008, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Hexes are insane atm. Lingering Curse and Mark of Insecurity are too powerful the way they are right now. Recurring Insecurity needs to be fixed.

The buff to PnH doesn't balance it out, either. Hexes still own any team regardless of the amount of hex removal.

ele pl · Dec 13, 2008, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Actually, i want to agree both, tyla and cytherea. They both have good points.
Tyla, right [Frenzy] together with [Bull's Strike] are the best balanced skills ever.

I rly like this update, pnh found a light, boon sig is decent, LS is decent too, ray has cool animation, elite bull=ok, elite frenzy=so, so. Mes elites=great.
Its far one of the best updates Izzy have done so far.

rohara · Dec 13, 2008, 09:27 PM // 21:27

i really, really hate this new meta. hundred blades, iron palm, lingering curse, and moi are absolutely ridiculous. the buffs to prots does not make up for it...not even pnh. way to over-power creep, anet.

Mr Emu · Dec 13, 2008, 09:46 PM // 21:46

any way we could ban cytherea? any way at all?