Curse

X Cytherea X · Dec 19, 2008, 10:46 AM // 10:46

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Anyone who has read your post in the past concerning sin "power level" knows how hilariously awful your ideas are

you should read more, quite a number agree.

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Palm strike is really OP in general. When you see top10 guilds running this in GvG, you know something is wrong.

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Top guilds run what is powerful regardless of whether or not its overpowered, DF honor has long since been shattered. If all of the top guilds have suddenly swapped a long standing, since prophecies long standing, stand warrior for an assassin then that is a sign something is not right.

look at these dumbass statements. you should be rejoicing. lol... lame traditionalists.

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with all this said, i see no logical argument why palm strike SHOULDN'T have an 8 second recharge. it is still an excellent snare with a deadly followup available, but will remove the spammy-ness AND make it so you can't chain off 3 dual attacks in one combo, which everyone should agree is ridiculous. anyone arguing this really needs to give their heads a shake.

ppffft. triple dual attack combos are nothing new. also, palm isnt affected by ias, which makes the combo slower.

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That's what everybody who understands and cares about serious PVP says. Fundamentally, I don't give a shit about what you do in RA and PVE.

fundamentally, you can shove your flawed notion of "serious pvp" up your ass.

shoogi · Dec 19, 2008, 12:27 PM // 12:27

1. Assassins will always have the problem of being extremely easy to disable, because they only spike, and a well placed guardian/bsurge kills the spike. The only sin build capable of doing some pressure is Shattering Assault, but comparing to a warrior... which brings me to:

2. It's not as overpowered as warriors with infinite spammability.

3. But, still I vote nerf. Why? because Assassins are a dumb class that don't require any intelligent play. That's why I'd like them back in the fields of unplayable. Palm Strike isn't drastically overpowered (at least when compared to other stuff, see point 2) but it makes sin a possible frontline choice which is undesirable.

4. For all of you sin fanboys (cytherea)- no one will take you seriously until you bring a reasonable argument explaining why palm strike sins, and sins in general, are good for the game. ME LIEK BIGG DAMAGE IN RA LOLOL isn't a reasonable argument.

Yarly · Dec 19, 2008, 12:42 PM // 12:42

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Originally Posted by shoogi

1. Assassins will always have the problem of being extremely easy to disable, because they only spike, and a well placed guardian/bsurge kills the spike. The only sin build capable of doing some pressure is Shattering Assault, but comparing to a warrior... which brings me to:

2. It's not as overpowered as warriors with infinite spammability.

3. But, still I vote nerf. Why? because Assassins are a dumb class that don't require any intelligent play. That's why I'd like them back in the fields of unplayable. Palm Strike isn't drastically overpowered (at least when compared to other stuff, see point 2) but it makes sin a possible frontline choice which is undesirable.

4. For all of you sin fanboys (cytherea)- no one will take you seriously until you bring a reasonable argument explaining why palm strike sins, and sins in general, are good for the game. ME LIEK BIGG DAMAGE IN RA LOLOL isn't a reasonable argument.

Your argument is just as unreasonable as his. Infact its worse. LOL

shoogi · Dec 19, 2008, 01:13 PM // 13:13

yeah it takes a lot of bravery to hit 123456 once in 15 seconds

scruffy · Dec 19, 2008, 01:48 PM // 13:48

Assassins would have been good if their focus remained on out-moving the opponent, rather than lolspiking people

Sun Fired Blank · Dec 19, 2008, 01:51 PM // 13:51

Palm Strike and Mark of Insecurity are the types of skills required to push the sin back into viability at high end play. The problem is that neither of them are conducive to inspiring high-end play, and that they're tremendously obnoxious in lower-end play.

I think the recent updates are great because they do help avoid stagnation and shift the meta. People are right now focused on the outright broken crap and the lack of foresight in their effects rather than the conceptual thinking that created them.

In the long run, the only huge problems for this update are Mark of Insecurity, Palm Strike, and maybe Lingering Curse, Peace and Harmony. I don't believe any of those options are unrepairable, and I like this update far more than the March and August updates.

ensoriki · Dec 19, 2008, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Nuke Palmstrike?
If I recall I remember people saying how the problem with sins is Chains and low weapon damage and blah de blah.

Palm strike does not need to be used in a chain.

Palm strike should be readjusted not nuked, anyone saying otherwise is simply acting on their bias and not logic.
At most reverted, theres no reason to Nuke it considering it was buffed simply because it's previous iteration was uncommon.

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Assassins would have been good if their focus remained on out-moving the opponent, rather than lolspiking people

Assassins would be good if someone actually cared.
Nobody cares, many of you have already proved this.
So lets not put in worthless words on what would make them good, when the only thing keeping them "degenerate" is the lack of TLC A-net is giving.

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with all this said, i see no logical argument why palm strike SHOULDN'T have an 8 second recharge. it is still an excellent snare with a deadly followup available, but will remove the spammy-ness AND make it so you can't chain off 3 dual attacks in one combo, which everyone should agree is ridiculous. anyone arguing this really needs to give their heads a shake.

I somewhat agree with Moriz here.
I think 4 recharge is kinda....unjust for something that is 80 Armor ignoring damage with no prerequisite (duals do have prerequisites however) and inflicts cripple. Though 8 recharge isn't necessarily going to umm....stop the cripple fest.
The cripple should be like 5 seconds tops or something, why does a sin need a cripple (from palm strike) longer than that, if you can't catch your opponent after crippling them, get Dash.
In terms of why it should not be 8 recharge.
At 8 recharge it becomes well more suited for simply Spike purposes. While it is being used for spike purposes, I think the problem with Palm strike is.
That it counts as an Off-hand.
If you removed that it would be significantly (as in breathing room) harder to follow up Trampling Ox.
This would also in general improve the sin since the skill would have greater flexibility and not force a Dual strike.
*cough* Just make it a skill, none of this off hand crap*cough*
at 8 recharge you still have.
Palm Strike, Trampling -Falling whatever-, Dual attack.
A sin could still spike with it, but since it won't function as a pre requisite for Trampling, that means an additional skill has to be taken that will be your off hand like say, Golden Phoenix Strike.
Which means by turning it into an off hand instead of just increasing the recharge (but that might still need to be increased)
We keep Palm viable, bring back in GPS, BLS, etc for Spike builds, make a sin need to carry more skills for their spike, which weakens their utility, and makes them easier to shutdown, and thus not a tremendous threat (from what I predict) in Gvg and HA, were the spike build could be easily shut down. Then since it's not an off hand we could see other builds surface up since they have a powerful Cripple skill they can execute at any time.

Just saying...

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Shogi
1. Assassins will always have the problem of being extremely easy to disable, because they only spike, and a well placed guardian/bsurge kills the spike. The only sin build capable of doing some pressure is Shattering Assault, but comparing to a warrior... which brings me to:

Shoot yourself, don't use the word Always without adding more to support that claim. Atleast others have the sense to say "Always as long as their current format remains" or some other equivalent of that.

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2. It's not as overpowered as warriors with infinite spammability.

So why the hell do you care? It's not overpowered, it's not destroying the game, yet you want to attack the class as a whole yet you just gave an example of something that is not destroying your game.

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3. But, still I vote nerf. Why? because Assassins are a dumb class that don't require any intelligent play. That's why I'd like them back in the fields of unplayable. Palm Strike isn't drastically overpowered (at least when compared to other stuff, see point 2) but it makes sin a possible frontline choice which is undesirable.

This line just screams bias. Now I understand that regardless of whether or not something is overpowered if it is degenerate, it should not belong. Sins have builds that take skill just like every other profession, the difference is they are generally ineffective.

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4. For all of you sin fanboys (cytherea)- no one will take you seriously until you bring a reasonable argument explaining why palm strike sins, and sins in general, are good for the game. ME LIEK BIGG DAMAGE IN RA LOLOL isn't a reasonable argument.

Palm strike itself is good for the game, and by that I mean it's good for the profession. I do not mean Palm strike is good in terms of making sins "Blow crap up"
I mean Palm strike in concept of course. In it's current form...well I don't see why it should stay in it's current form. However theres nothing wrong with Palm Strike inflicting cripple, it's simply a matter of what happens within the skill such as damage, duration,energy and recharge. Of course maybe im being an idiot, I do have that tendency however, Palm strike provides options. As normal offhands need to be used in a chain they hinder the profession to an automated chain of button pressing. However Palm strike can be used whenever you are in melee range, regardless of your other skills. Palm strike only needs fine tuning to find it's place.
The only profession that is "Good" for the game is the monk. The monk is the sole thing that's pretty much....always needed. Warriors are replaced when gimmicks pop up, rangers are replaced, etc. Monks are not replaced generally.
All the sins provide is an option of play, there is nothing wrong with having options in this game. Assassins are not destroying this game, as any class can become far more broken at any time (and many have). Why are mesmers or necro's good for this game?
Of course "ME LIEK BIGG DAMAGE IN RA LOLOL" isn't a reasonable argument, but saying because they have done BIGG damage in RA isn't an argument to say they are bad for the game.
Gvg has had issues regardless of whether or not the assassin profession was in the meta. Ha has also had issues, so has every other form of pvp.
Assassins are not destroying the game.
The concept of assassins does not destroy the game, considering various implementation of dexterous professions in games.
I'll repeat myself, I could be showing myself to be an idiot right, but Palm strike does not need to be "nuked".

Correct me if Im wrong, I might learn something.

X Cytherea X · Dec 19, 2008, 07:05 PM // 19:05

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Originally Posted by ensoriki

I somewhat agree with Moriz here.
I think 4 recharge is kinda....unjust for something that is 80 Armor ignoring damage with no prerequisite (duals do have prerequisites however) and inflicts cripple. Though 8 recharge isn't necessarily going to umm....stop the cripple fest.
The cripple should be like 5 seconds tops or something, why does a sin need a cripple (from palm strike) longer than that, if you can't catch your opponent after crippling them, get Dash.
In terms of why it should not be 8 recharge.
At 8 recharge it becomes well more suited for simply Spike purposes. While it is being used for spike purposes, I think the problem with Palm strike is.
That it counts as an Off-hand.
If you removed that it would be significantly (as in breathing room) harder to follow up Trampling Ox.
This would also in general improve the sin since the skill would have greater flexibility and not force a Dual strike.
*cough* Just make it a skill, none of this off hand crap*cough*
at 8 recharge you still have.
Palm Strike, Trampling -Falling whatever-, Dual attack.
A sin could still spike with it, but since it won't function as a pre requisite for Trampling, that means an additional skill has to be taken that will be your off hand like say, Golden Phoenix Strike.
Which means by turning it into an off hand instead of just increasing the recharge (but that might still need to be increased)
We keep Palm viable, bring back in GPS, BLS, etc for Spike builds, make a sin need to carry more skills for their spike, which weakens their utility, and makes them easier to shutdown, and thus not a tremendous threat (from what I predict) in Gvg and HA, were the spike build could be easily shut down. Then since it's not an off hand we could see other builds surface up since they have a powerful Cripple skill they can execute at any time.

[caltrops]
[hidden caltrops]
[leaping mantis sting]
[crippling dagger]

we already have crippling skills like you described. removing palm strike's offhand status removes bar compression, which is one of the main reasons for its greatness. lessening utility and increasing attack skills is a bit counter-progressive, dont you think?

FoxBat · Dec 19, 2008, 07:11 PM // 19:11

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Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

In the long run, the only huge problems for this update are Mark of Insecurity, Palm Strike, and maybe Lingering Curse

I find it hilarious that people are more upset about Palm Strike than Lingering. The latter is THE dominant 8v8 build, nothing but maybe Rawr can stand up to it. Although it's funny to watch r100+ scrubs roll KMD when they were still running FC water.

moriz · Dec 19, 2008, 07:12 PM // 19:12

[caltrops]: cannot follow with trampling ox, cannot run 3 dual attacks without a third offhand
[hidden caltrops]: cannot follow with trampling ox, cannot run 3 dual attacks without a third offhand
[leaping mantis sting]: cannot follow with trampling ox, cannot run 3 dual attacks without a third offhand

though i do commend you for being smart enough to finally /facepalm yourself. glad you finally realized how stupid you are.

X Cytherea X · Dec 19, 2008, 07:35 PM // 19:35

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Originally Posted by moriz

[caltrops]: cannot follow with trampling ox, cannot run 3 dual attacks without a third offhand
[hidden caltrops]: cannot follow with trampling ox, cannot run 3 dual attacks without a third offhand
[leaping mantis sting]: cannot follow with trampling ox, cannot run 3 dual attacks without a third offhand

though i do commend you for being smart enough to finally /facepalm yourself. glad you finally realized how stupid you are.

i was facepalming ensoriki, for him wanting to remove palm strike's offhand status.

guess you're too stupid to realize that.

edit: there, edited previous post for you slower peeps.

ensoriki · Dec 19, 2008, 07:58 PM // 19:58

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Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

i was facepalming ensoriki, for him wanting to remove palm strike's offhand status.

guess you're too stupid to realize that.

Tell me the negative effects of it not being an offhand.

Caltrops? That means you needed 2 skills other than Trampling (Caltrops + off hand) to KD, it also means you don't exactly have your 4 recharge follow up.
Fortunately it's not elite so you can run something else.

Hidden Caltrops, alright your damage output just went down because it does no damage, and you still need to run an off hand. Thus your bar is not compressed.

Leading Mantis strike, This means your running L-O-D, whats the point? You still need to bring an off hand.

Mr Emu · Dec 19, 2008, 08:35 PM // 20:35

tbh I don't think Pstrike itself is really the problem. If you gave it a 6s recharge to prevent trip dualing it would be fine. The real problem is its synergy with trampling. It simultaneously fulfills both of trampling's reqs, and upping tramp's recharge would just make it even more spikey. So IMO pstrike->6s recharge, buff horns a little, nuke trampling and BoS.

ensoriki · Dec 19, 2008, 08:38 PM // 20:38

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Originally Posted by Mr Emu

tbh I don't think Pstrike itself is really the problem. If you gave it a 6s recharge to prevent trip dualing it would be fine. The real problem is its synergy with trampling. It simultaneously fulfills both of trampling's reqs, and upping tramp's recharge would just make it even more spikey. So IMO pstrike->6s recharge, buff horns a little, nuke trampling and BoS.

I dunno if you know this.
But the sin community has a habit of trying to get a spike anyway we can.

Palm, Trampling, Falling Lotus,Hoto, Falling Spider, Twisting Fangs.

I still have 3 duals, only difference is it took 6 skills instead of 5.
Do I care? No because my mentality says that I will get a kill if I put these six skills on my bar.

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we already have crippling skills like you described. removing palm strike's offhand status removes bar compression, which is one of the main reasons for its greatness. lessening utility and increasing attack skills is a bit counter-progressive, dont you think?

It hurts bar compression if you want to O-D-O-D-D.
"It hurts L-O-D"? , who was using Palm strike as their Off hand before the buff? a small minority. Instead what it does is it means if you don't have cripple on your bar, you can forget Hiddencaltrops/siphon/caltrops/etc (im just listing names of other cripple skills) since they don't do damage, and put on Palm which will snare but also deal damage.

valence · Dec 19, 2008, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Am I the only one who finds Wastrel Collapse a skill lurking in the dark, waiting for abuse.

4 sec kd, nothing a caster can do about it.

Reverend Dr · Dec 19, 2008, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Right now [palm strike] > [Wastrels collapse] so who is going to use wastrel's?

Celeborn10 · Dec 19, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

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Originally Posted by ensoriki

Palm Strike, Trampling, Falling Lotus,Hoto, Falling Spider, Twisting Fangs.

I still have 3 duals, only difference is it took 6 skills instead of 5.
Do I care? No because my mentality says that I will get a kill if I put these six skills on my bar.

You are right, it is the mentality of a majority of the Assassin community that they only see the end result as a kill and consequently take the easiest means to that end. Putting in Disrupting Dagger could stop a Guardian from going off but they would rather take the easier route of using an IAS, multiple Dual Attack knockdowns and/or a longer chain with Blades of Steel.

Consequently I don't really see Assassins bringing much to the table if Palm Strike actually gets worse than what it was. If Palm Strike does get as much a nukage as you described the mindless zombie hordes will turn back to the lol chains they have been using with 7 skill chains (5 attack skills+IAS+hex). Right now they're bringing alot of mindless, overpowered Elites to the table but if Anet can manage to balance them while preserving part of the utility made more accessible then Assassins would have a place. Finding that balance is well-nigh impossible though without a more comprehensive overhaul of the Assassin class.

ensoriki · Dec 19, 2008, 11:56 PM // 23:56

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Originally Posted by Celeborn10

You are right, it is the mentality of a majority of the Assassin community that they only see the end result as a kill and consequently take the easiest means to that end. Putting in Disrupting Dagger could stop a Guardian from going off but they would rather take the easier route of using an IAS, multiple Dual Attack knockdowns and/or a longer chain with Blades of Steel.

Disrupting Dagger is well, not good enough for the situation it fits to be worthwhile most of the time. I know this because I use this, then again generally anyone can see this.
It's based off natural speed, which makes a lot of skills...pretty much impossible to interrupt unless you predict them.
Then theres it's recharge >.>, thats a problem because of how chains work and that once they use their dual the sin now is just whacking away until his lead recharges, but his lead is situational...so...

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Consequently I don't really see Assassins bringing much to the table if Palm Strike actually gets worse than what it was. If Palm Strike does get as much a nukage as you described the mindless zombie hordes will turn back to the lol chains they have been using with 7 skill chains (5 attack skills+IAS+hex). Right now they're bringing alot of mindless, overpowered Elites to the table but if Anet can manage to balance them while preserving part of the utility made more accessible then Assassins would have a place. Finding that balance is well-nigh impossible though without a more comprehensive overhaul of the Assassin class.

*cough* Palm strike has already been buffed by given 4 recharge, why not make it cripple if it hits a moving foe instead of just giving cripple*cough*

urania · Dec 20, 2008, 12:10 AM // 00:10

palm strike is and is not broken.
it IS broken if u let such sins alone.they will not only kd lock u but also deal ridiculous armor ignoring damage in a very short time period (70 from palm every 4 seconds (yes, they do spam it sometimes just to get the damage in), damage from twisting+deep wound oh and did i mention kd lock while they bash on u under flail? =) ) and will also be able to repeat dealing that damage because of ridiculously short recharge all those attack skills have.

it is NOT broken if u disable palm strike - d shot/humility and they can go dancing. but yeah, thats the case with a lot of broken skills and doesnt fix the first point at all.

so yes, NUKE THE FKN BROKEN SHIT.
and again, whoever thinks its not broken should uninstall and go play minesweeper instead.

Riotgear · Dec 20, 2008, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Balanced or not, run-your-finger-down-the-number-buttons lolsins suck the fun out of the game anywhere they're viable, nuke it. I'll agree with an Assassin buff when they can do something other than button-mash spike chains.