Curse

Krill · Dec 18, 2008, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Defiantly needs a readjustment. Change dmg to blunt instead of direct, adjust the recharge and cripple duration.

For those arguing that this enhances the utility of sins, there was already a similar skill combo with grenth's grasp and golden phoenix that accomplished the same thing. However that (obviously) limited you to a derv secondary, removing the possibility of warrior stances or something like rigor mortis, forced you to invest some in wind prayers and ran the risk of enchant removal...so it was balanced as far as sins go. Palm strike is not balanced, it's just going to be another much hated leftover skill like VoR once the novelty wears off in GvG.

Eragon Zarroc · Dec 18, 2008, 06:51 PM // 18:51

keep it, it may be crazy chain but can be shutdown just as easily as any other sin chain.

Orange Milk · Dec 18, 2008, 07:34 PM // 19:34

It is overpowered. Constant instacrip. It's now the, lowest energy, highest damage, longest lasting Crip skill in the game, plus it's a touch so it's unblockable and lands though Blind or blurred.

So yes, it's over powered. It was the best in one or two of those catagories, then maybe not, but it's go 100% pure upside and no down side as compared to all other crippling skills.

Not to mention the fact that it not only starts a massive damage combo of atack skills, it fills in the middle of the chain aswell.

Look at Crip Shot, there is no way in PvP a Ranger can buff a crip shot bar to the power of Palm Strike.

Crip Slash, has some damage out put(on the bar as a whole), but it takes adreniline and can be blocked. Sure the rest of the sin bar can be blocked, other than wild strike, but when the oponent is perma cripped and perrma KDed there will be no chance to cast a blocking enchatment and the aforementioned wild strike eliminates the chance of a stance blocking. The Crip SLash bar, like most Warrior bars, cant support Wild Blow.

ALSO, there is the fact that the sin only needs to add 3 more attack skills giving him 4 open slots for buffs/survival skills. The full Crip slash bar iscertainly not a solo bar and dropping skills from it for heals/defense weakens the bar to uselessness, the typical Crip Shot bar bings some self defense/heal skills, but again, nowhere near the damage.

All other Crippling skills fall short, I'm not going into detail, but no skill in this game can compare to what Palm Strike brings to the table in a 4v4 environment. I doesn't see action in GvG because it's 8v8 and there is more support and utility for defense unlike in 4v4 formats where only 32 skills are available

Phe Belladona · Dec 18, 2008, 09:14 PM // 21:14

does too much damage and recharges too quickly, change it.

Balky · Dec 18, 2008, 09:34 PM // 21:34

I must be one of the few sins that doesn`t use it, every other sin i play against in AB of JQ is running it ...and i find it tedious in the extreme! Haze does work against it, but timing has to be on to knock them down and ruin their chain.

To me it is overpowered or the other skills underpowered? Compare it to Impale which can do just as much damage, but has a 15sec recharge time, and can only be used after a dual, is it any wonder it gets so much use?

Personally speaking i just think it shows a chronic lack of imagination if it`s the only build they can run.

Bowstring Badass · Dec 18, 2008, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Increase the recharge on palm to 10 seconds drop the damage to like 65 at 13 crit and shorten the cripple length to around 8 seconds. imo

kvndoom · Dec 18, 2008, 10:11 PM // 22:11

I think 10 is too long of a recharge. Its whole point was a fast-recharging lead-skip. Had the cripple not been included it would still be worth taking at 4r. 6r, make it physical damage so armor counts, and it should be fine. Any stronger nerf and it's really useless again.

Productivity · Dec 18, 2008, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khasar

Cytherea's got a point. How often do you see sins in any real PvP situation except in gimmicky builds? If this can make them more usefull in GvG and the like it might be worth keeping around, at least for a while.

That's not a valid argument. Assassins occupy a section of class design space that's bad for the game, hence when they don't see play the game is better.

X Cytherea X · Dec 18, 2008, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

Defiantly needs a readjustment. Change dmg to blunt instead of direct, adjust the recharge and cripple duration.

For those arguing that this enhances the utility of sins, there was already a similar skill combo with grenth's grasp and golden phoenix that accomplished the same thing. However that (obviously) limited you to a derv secondary, removing the possibility of warrior stances or something like rigor mortis, forced you to invest some in wind prayers and ran the risk of enchant removal...so it was balanced as far as sins go. Palm strike is not balanced, it's just going to be another much hated leftover skill like VoR once the novelty wears off in GvG.

that doesnt make grenthsins balanced, that makes them weak, that's why they were only seen in casual formats. palm strike is the level of balanced-ness they need, to stay competitive in more organized formats.

1. if palm strike stays the same...
- we will see assassins in higher-end pvp. sometimes.
- but every sin and his mother will run it, everywhere.
- if you get bored with it, the past builds still work, you can run them in low-end pvp for the lols.

2. if palm strike is nerfed a little...
- it will still be the best option, no other combo opener compares.
- build diversity will NOT be increased.
- they probably wont be used in more organized formats that much anymore, if at all.

3. if palm strike is nerfed a lot...
- back to square one. players will go back to the old mediocre builds they were using before the buff.
- but i still pwn ra no matter what.

4. if other assassin skills are buffed (whether by damage, recharge, functionality, whatever) to the same level as palm strike without surpassing it...
- they will all be good options.
- build diversity will be increased.
- assassins will be viable in organized formats.

THIS is the power level assassins should have. get used to it... it feels right. too bad it's just one build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Productivity

That's not a valid argument. Assassins occupy a section of class design space that's bad for the game, hence when they don't see play the game is better.

that's what a lot of forumgoers say. in this forum and in others. but guess what, forumgoers are a minority of the guild wars population. most are in the game, enjoying playing assassins. people want to play them, heck, even in nerfed form. but especially in viable form. and most importantly, Anet knows this.

Seraphim of Chaos · Dec 18, 2008, 10:39 PM // 22:39

Lower Damage, Raise Recharge, Lower Crip Duration

Aerial Assault · Dec 18, 2008, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Productivity

That's not a valid argument. Assassins occupy a section of class design space that's bad for the game, hence when they don't see play the game is better.

Spare us the bullshit rhetoric, seriously. More variety keeps this game alive.

On that note, they need to buff more Derv skills.

FlamingMetroid · Dec 18, 2008, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerial Assault

Spare us the bullshit rhetoric, seriously. More variety keeps this game alive.

On that note, they need to buff more Derv skills.

trollan gaems

tauntedflail · Dec 18, 2008, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

that doesnt make grenthsins balanced, that makes them weak, that's why they were only seen in casual formats. palm strike is the level of balanced-ness they need, to stay competitive in more organized formats.

if palm strike is nerfed a little...
- it will still be the best option, no other combo opener compares.
- build diversity will NOT be increased.
- they probably wont be used in more organized formats that much anymore, if at all.

if palm strike is nerfed a lot...
- back to square one. players will go back to the old mediocre builds they were using before the buff.
- except me because i pwn ra no matter what.

if other assassin skills are buffed (whether by damage, recharge, functionality, whatever) to the same level as palm strike without surpassing it...
- they will all be good options.
- build diversity will be increased.
- assassins will be viable in organized formats.

THIS is the power level assassins should have. get used to it... it feels right. too bad it's just one build.

that's what a lot of forumgoers say. in this forum and in others. but guess what, forumgoers are a minority of the guild wars population. most are in the game, enjoying playing assassins. people want to play them, heck, even in nerfed form. but especially in viable form. and most importantly, Anet knows this.

Agreed agreed agreed. The game is about variety, this has added it.
Very well done - just need a bit more buffing to other skills now.

People should learn to get used to buffs to skills without bitching about them all the time, its usualy not as bad as they think.
Take WS, people are finnaly begining to STFU about it because its a part of the game now, and a very good part when it comes to adding variety. (a good derv elite thats not a form)

Forgotton200 · Dec 18, 2008, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orange Milk

It is overpowered. Constant instacrip. It's now the, lowest energy, highest damage, longest lasting Crip skill in the game, plus it's a touch so it's unblockable and lands though Blind or blurred.

So yes, it's over powered. It was the best in one or two of those catagories, then maybe not, but it's go 100% pure upside and no down side as compared to all other crippling skills.

Not to mention the fact that it not only starts a massive damage combo of atack skills, it fills in the middle of the chain aswell.

Look at Crip Shot, there is no way in PvP a Ranger can buff a crip shot bar to the power of Palm Strike.

Crip Slash, has some damage out put(on the bar as a whole), but it takes adreniline and can be blocked. Sure the rest of the sin bar can be blocked, other than wild strike, but when the oponent is perma cripped and perrma KDed there will be no chance to cast a blocking enchatment and the aforementioned wild strike eliminates the chance of a stance blocking. The Crip SLash bar, like most Warrior bars, cant support Wild Blow.

ALSO, there is the fact that the sin only needs to add 3 more attack skills giving him 4 open slots for buffs/survival skills. The full Crip slash bar iscertainly not a solo bar and dropping skills from it for heals/defense weakens the bar to uselessness, the typical Crip Shot bar bings some self defense/heal skills, but again, nowhere near the damage.

All other Crippling skills fall short, I'm not going into detail, but no skill in this game can compare to what Palm Strike brings to the table in a 4v4 environment. I doesn't see action in GvG because it's 8v8 and there is more support and utility for defense unlike in 4v4 formats where only 32 skills are available

Nerf.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerial Assault

Spare us the bullshit rhetoric, seriously. More variety keeps this game alive.

On that note, they need to buff more Derv skills.

Go make your own thread about dervs. I lol'd @ variety. Haha.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tauntedflail

People should learn to get used to buffs to skills without bitching about them all the time, its usualy not as bad as they think.
Take WS, people are finnaly begining to STFU about it because its a part of the game now, and a very good part when it comes to adding variety. (a good derv elite thats not a form)

This thread is now about dervs.

Tyla · Dec 18, 2008, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by tauntedflail

Take WS, people are finnaly begining to STFU about it because its a part of the game now, and a very good part when it comes to adding variety. (a good derv elite thats not a form)

Actually no, people are beginning to shut up about it because there's worse things to worry about right now.

Krill · Dec 19, 2008, 12:24 AM // 00:24

@Cytherea

Anyone who has read your post in the past concerning sin "power level" knows how hilariously awful your ideas are, your only perspective and concern is random arena.

Again, I don't understand what the f*ck this qq'ing about lack of sin build variety is. Want to play a class with no build variety? Try warrior or monk, but that doesn't matter because they do what they are suppose to just fine. The sin class never had a design goal though, just a bunch big damage chains and very random-gimmicky spell casting ability. No point in trying to fix something that has always been a flaming turd. Same goes for the derv class while we're on the subject.

scruffy · Dec 19, 2008, 01:02 AM // 01:02

I don't know why everyone is qqing about palm strike being imba when assassins are inferior to warriors in every mode of pvp.

Arena Net is taking the wrong approach to buffing assassins. Assassins were not supposed to be useless instagib bots, instagibbing is nice but when you can't set up the situation you need to successfully instagib someone it doesn't matter how much damage your build does, it will never be able to maximize its own efficiency. They were supposed to be designed to outmove the opponent and win by their ability to stay ahead movement-wise.

I would have liked to see skills like AoD buffed, where while its on you you also get a 33% movement speed boost or something of the like, so that you can leave the opponents in your dust. I see the assassins as a class that were designed to split + collapse as their bread and butter, but they don't have the ability to split or collapse as well as any other class in the game, let alone be the best at it!

Recently someone gave me the argument, well once you collapse you have to be strong enough to actually accomplish something in the time frame provided and thats where palm strike comes in. I'll put it this way: sin builds do not work because Guild Wars has an overlying issue that favors teams who bring a lot of defense in their builds, everywhere they go they run into something that can render them useless. Monk flag runner? GL killing anything in their base, collapse on the stand? You'll just run into water eles and ritualists, GL hitting through 99 block/miss mechanics. As a class that relies on no blocks/misses to be anywhere near them for them to function properly, the game sure as hell doesn't seem to have any room for them the way it looks right now.

If the assassin can outmove the enemy like he is supposed to, he can get through their 99 layers of defense without needing 'overpowered' skills to do so.

LifesRestorer · Dec 19, 2008, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

I don't know why everyone is qqing about palm strike being imba when assassins are inferior to warriors in every mode of pvp.

This.

Where exactly is this skill being a problem anyways? in RA it's just another 'meh' sin bar that is countered by shield bash, just like all the others.
In HA it's a 'meh' sin bar that cannot live up to the high pressure required by HA frontlines
So I'm guessing the problem either lies within TA or GvG, more specifically in the instances of linebacking in TA or Skirmish ability in GvG

Now I'm not exactly an expert on either of the latter formats but last I checked GvGs, the person to counter-split would be a ranger, who has: nat stride, mend touch, d-shot and savage (if you can't interrupt a sin running at your face with a 3/4 then you should pick a different class) which should easily outskirmish a sin

In TA, last time I checked most teams have a N/W with shield bash, some gay hexes and foul feast/plague sending.

What I'm concluding from this is Palm strike being a 'meh' skill that brings sins out of the range of epic fail into slightly more annoying than usual but still not as good as a warrior. Every format you look at (with the exception of RA, cause its random duh) has a solution to this skill in pretty much any balanced build.

Oh also...

Quote:

Originally Posted by tauntedflail

Take WS, people are finnaly begining to STFU about it because its a part of the game now, and a very good part when it comes to adding variety. (a good derv elite thats not a form)

No people began to STFU about this cause it was put back into balance when the retarded sigsmite got pimp slapped

I Jonas I · Dec 19, 2008, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Palm strike is really OP in general. When you see top10 guilds running this in GvG, you know something is wrong.

Although it is really fun D shotting it in RA and watching assassins rage at you =P

Forgotton200 · Dec 19, 2008, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas The Keen

Palm strike is really OP in general. When you see top10 guilds running this in GvG, you know something is wrong.

Although it is really fun D shotting it in RA and watching assassins rage at you =P

I don't bother looking at top10 guilds anymore but it when I did a quick check, I saw these team :

Assassin
Assassin or warrior
Ranger
Mesmer or Ranger
Monk
Monk

New meta yay.