Curse

Kumlekar · Nov 27, 2008, 01:23 AM // 01:23

I've been reading a couple of threads and was wondering what ganking is in the context of tombs/HA, and why its a problem. I'c currently r1, and would like to get more of an understandign of this game type.

Gift3d · Nov 27, 2008, 02:41 AM // 02:41

1v1v1 in courtyard/hall of heroes, turned into 2v1

i.e. red and yellow beat the shit out of blue team because they're good and make people mad.

subarucar · Nov 27, 2008, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Basically as Gift3d said, on a teamX vs teamY vs teamZ map, people go for the best/highest ranked team.

Edwards · Nov 27, 2008, 06:25 AM // 06:25

It's not necessarily the best team that gets ganked. Often it's because of a personal vendetta or because one team doesn't think they can win, so they help out their friends.

It's just a natural occurrence, playing on three way maps.

As a friend of mine is fond of saying, winning halls is 1/3 luck/buildwars, 1/3 skill, and 1/3 who you know.

lustnlood · Nov 27, 2008, 06:56 AM // 06:56

ok s... a few pointers about ganking.... sometimes its not ganking, its called being opportunistic... other times it really is ganking out of spite.. good team could prolly hold off or take long to drop but its becoming quite annoying to do this...

i pity the gankers cos it shows lack of talent on their part to be fair players

Ramod · Nov 27, 2008, 11:25 PM // 23:25

As lustnlood said, there is a big difference between ganking, and a team capturing your base as a tactical advantage. This is most often seen in 3way Capture points, as in relic runs, if another team stops running and comes for you at your relic, you can regard it as ganking. However, sometimes a team cannot stay in the middle point because of their team builds (lack of much defense, errs, whatever), they will split off and capture your homebase. This is NOT ganking, its just another tactic in the game. There is no unwritten "rule", that all teams MUST fight over the middle point, there isn't any shame or "dishonor" in capping someone else's base. Infact, its great tactics, as its not too hard to sneak by sometimes in the flurry of madness that goes on in the center. It's only a gank when they just sit in your base, kill you over and over as you res and never have any intention of capping any more bases.

Lykan · Nov 28, 2008, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramod

As lustnlood said, there is a big difference between ganking, and a team capturing your base as a tactical advantage. This is most often seen in 3way Capture points, as in relic runs, if another team stops running and comes for you at your relic, you can regard it as ganking. However, sometimes a team cannot stay in the middle point because of their team builds (lack of much defense, errs, whatever), they will split off and capture your homebase. This is NOT ganking, its just another tactic in the game. There is no unwritten "rule", that all teams MUST fight over the middle point, there isn't any shame or "dishonor" in capping someone else's base. Infact, its great tactics, as its not too hard to sneak by sometimes in the flurry of madness that goes on in the center.

Altho people will pretty much always piss and moan about you 'ganking' them when you try this as they themselves fail at tactics and are bad at the game.

shoogi · Nov 28, 2008, 04:53 PM // 16:53

The meaning of "ganking" is intentionally throwing any winning chances you have in the game in order to help/hurt another team in the 3-team match.
People that intentionally gank are gay, and not much can be done against them. Only option is add an auto-lose for teams that have no theoretical chance of winning in halls, but that will only work in king of the hill.

Another problem is unintentional ganks. Unintentional ganks happen when a team that basically already lost thinks that they still have a chance, so they do for example what Ramod said. If you get to a situation in hoh ab where you must play for bases, then you can /resign unless people are immensely stupid and won't notice that you took their base. If you are red and you go for blue's base then you are giving yellow the game. That's how it is. Those unintentional ganks are indeed not ganks, and you can't blame people for doing them.
So what can you do against unintentional ganks? Remove hoh ab and hoh relics and you fix that problem, among many others with those maps.
And if we're into it bring back sacred ([email protected])

Reverend Dr · Nov 28, 2008, 10:57 PM // 22:57

I've played builds where our legitimate tactics and best means of winning dictate that we gank.

The necessity of keeping the ghost alive during king of the hill has brought tons of defensive layers into HA. With the old KotH system one need only be the last to hold the altar and defense could be sacrificed for more offense. Now in a 1v1 KotH the offense can keep that other team at bay, just not two teams at once. Sometimes we have ganked to get a team to resign so it will be a 1v1 match. Of course if they are stubborn and don't resign it just ends as a full on gank.

Killed u man · Nov 29, 2008, 12:17 AM // 00:17

This thread needs moar: "Bring back old school HA", where ganking was BARELY a problem.

Now there will still be ganking, there simply is to many vendetta's, but atleast teams have got a chance of winning through a gank.

If manage to "hold" the center, even when getting ganked, in other words, the thing you're SUPPOSED to do, you'll win.

Now, if you get ganked during Cap Points (and the gankers KNOW what they are doing), you have 0% chance of winning.
Same for Relic Run.

For people who thinking you can still win through a gank:

Cap Points:

No matter what you do, you got 8 people nulifying WHATEVER you do, at they same time they are beating you up. And this all happens whilst the third team is leeching of a free base.
IF it's an intentional gank (early in the game), you won't win.

Relic Run:

It's already random who wins in a "fair" match. Take a wild gues what happens when U have a FULL team hitting on you, when you have NO defence whatsoever. (Bad gankers try to bodyblock the enemy team, good gankers simply kill them)
Most teams collapse 1 on 1 after a minute our team. Now, all you've got is 2 Monks, concidering half your midline is running, the other half has to snare the third team (Assuming they don't even kill him) and any shutdown you have is shutting down snares of the third team.

Either way, you're NOT going to win when you get ganked, and heck you're not supposed to. 2v1 should be impossible on these shitty conditions HoH maps...

Skyros · Nov 29, 2008, 07:35 AM // 07:35

I'm gonna have to say that players more then the HA conditions are the factor of ganks.

yes yes yes we can all go in depth in the pros of cons between old school tombs and present HA holding, but that's not really the point of this thread is it.

Gank's come from players. Specifically players that fit these following players:

1) player(s) who hate someone from one or more teams
2) if you have a friend on another team requesting a gank
3) if you belong to [GANK] and have absolutely nothing better to do
4) you're bored
5) [any combination of the above]

Argueable, present HoH conditions make it super easy to gank as the Lord of HA and member of the best HA guild on game Borat has pointed out, but ultimately, ganks lay on the player's shoulders and we can all pretty much agree that HA players are the scum of the GW player base (even worse then people that take AB's super serially...)

Oh and btw, is your google broken or something? if so you can borrow mine.

Killed u man · Nov 29, 2008, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyros

I'm gonna have to say that players more then the HA conditions are the factor of ganks.

Yes, ANY intentional gank is ALWAYS player's side.

However, imagine this:

2.5 minutes left current KoTH (5 points)
Blue got 3 points
Yellow got 0 points
Red got 4 points

Red is holding.

Now, Yellow can STILL win, assuming they cap BEFORE Red gets the next point, so it's still profitable for them to "kill" red.
Same for Blue.

Assume they manage to kill the Red Ghostly, BUT Blue manages to cap:

2 minutes left (4points)
Blue got 3 points
Yellow got 0 points
Red got 4 points

It is near impossible for Yellow to "kill" blue within those let's say 5 seconds they have AND cap for the next point. (So they can still get 4 points)

So Yellow is pretty much FORCED to resign, concidering they can't win anymore.

That is a unintentional "gank". They whiped Red, and once they couldn't win anymore, they resigned. Yes, even tough they TRIED to win, it doesn't change the fact that they leave Red an a miserably bad situation. (Have to come all the way from their base to overcap Blue in a 1v1 Scenario, aka near-impossible)

So by resigning out, they are pretty much giving the win to Blue, concidering it's REALLY unlikely Red will kill Blue 1 on 1 with a full team rezz every minute. (Unless your name is Rspike)
By not resigning out, they will "gank" blue, concidering they will help Red.

No matter what Yellow does, they are, either way, ganking a team. Which brings me to the biggest flaw of current KoTH:

IT'S THE TEAM THAT ALREADY LOST, THAT DECIDES WHO WINS

They can either resign out, giving the victory to the current team holding. Or they can give a hand to the third team, giving the victory to them.

Ganks happen all the time, and it's, for me, the only reason why HoH is NOT fun anymore.

No matter how you put it, getting a 50 concesuctive run with a hyper defensive build was more fun they getting ganked after 2-3 HoH holds. (And the population obviously agrees, +-15 districts => +-2 districts -regardless of the "normal" decline of population when a game gets older. It CLEARLY spiked when they went to 6v6, and when they added these shitconditions)

Skyros · Nov 29, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

That is a unintentional "gank". They whiped Red, and once they couldn't win anymore, they resigned. Yes, even tough they TRIED to win, it doesn't change the fact that they leave Red an a miserably bad situation.

yea red's in a shit position but i can hardly constitute what yellow was doing was even an unintentional gank. that word gets thrown around too much its lost any meaning... so much so that people talk about getting ganked out of underworld...

what yellow was doing was a last ditch effort win. and while RED team might see that as a blatant attempt to gank for the lulz/blue team, its not. Its not a gank. its a last ditch effort to win (now if yellow killed red's hero for blue to cap to lead the win... then yea thats a gank). But from your story, this yellow team sounds like its honestly trying to win. PEOPLE NEED TO BE ABLE TO DISCERN THE DIFFERENCE AND ALSO RECOGNIZE WHEN SOMEONE IS / IS NOT GANKING YOU.

only thing your story did for me is reaffirm that HA players are bottom of the barrel scum. I know this word also gets thrown alot but players really lack respect and honor toward each other and the vicious cycle of HA ganks is just evidence to that. As I said, the HA conditions today make it a lot easier to gank or ruin a team's run, but ultimately its the player's choice that matters

Killed u man · Nov 30, 2008, 12:32 AM // 00:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyros

""

No, I GET the part where Yellow really did not gank red.

BUT, at the end of the day, because of THEIR play (yellow's), Blue got the win, and NOT red.

From that perspective, it's a gank. I know, yellow tried to win, and the last thing I would do is flame them in all-chat.

This, once again, doesn't change the fact that this is a game-design flaw. There is NOTHING red, blue OR yellow could have done about this situation, yet it exists AND occurs DAILY.

Why play a flawed game, where winning chances are, besides somewhat random (Relic Run) and unfair (Cap Points) completely in the hands of the team that has already lost.

Alot of people realized this, aside from the fact that having to pack 20+ skills just to keep up with other people in these shitconditions, and said: "No thank you Anet, we'll go back to playing WoW/runescape". -Or they could have gone to GvG, which also is a joke post-NF, or some hard-core PvE HoM preparing (What I'm doing atm

)-

I REALIZE this is not a gank in the conventional term. A gank is where u INTENTIONALLY give up your own win to make someone else loose. (or win)

But that does NOT change the fact that the given situation, the one I discussed KoTH, has the same evolution AND outcome of a gank, with the difference that it's non-intentional.

Gforce · Dec 01, 2008, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ramod

As lustnlood said, there is a big difference between ganking, and a team capturing your base as a tactical advantage. This is most often seen in 3way Capture points, as in relic runs, if another team stops running and comes for you at your relic, you can regard it as ganking. However, sometimes a team cannot stay in the middle point because of their team builds (lack of much defense, errs, whatever), they will split off and capture your homebase. This is NOT ganking, its just another tactic in the game. There is no unwritten "rule", that all teams MUST fight over the middle point, there isn't any shame or "dishonor" in capping someone else's base. Infact, its great tactics, as its not too hard to sneak by sometimes in the flurry of madness that goes on in the center. It's only a gank when they just sit in your base, kill you over and over as you res and never have any intention of capping any more bases.

I agree with this.. My guild plays byob (organized randomway) in HA when we are not getting an opponent for gvg, and we usually get accused for ganking in halls (Even when we win in the end...). Because we usually have one healer we cant really hold on koth so we keep killing off the holding team for lulz/faction (Dont really think anyone cares about this though), or we kill the team that flames us in local chat :d
Same is on other maps.. On relic run we dont have make haste, so we cant just sit there and wait till the last minute before we snare (we would be 8 relics behind), so we are snaring both teams all the time (and get flamed). Or we fight 6v6 (so while running relics) and if we destroy them like that, they flame us for ganking them and then come 8v6 us (rite).
Same happens on cap pts, where apparently fighting over the middle shrine is the only honorable thing to do (Because everyone sends 8 ppl back to counter a 2 man split, and then loses to the 3rd team).

I get annoyed by these people flaming us for something they have in their own hands...

TogoTheTiger · Dec 01, 2008, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyros

only thing your story did for me is reaffirm that HA players are bottom of the barrel scum. I know this word also gets thrown alot but players really lack respect and honor toward each other and the vicious cycle of HA ganks is just evidence to that.

That is a gross and ignorant generalization. Yes, there are some nasty players in HA. They come in all ranks. Low people think they are the shit when they beat any higher ranked group because of an error. High ranked people think they're the shit when they barely beat another high ranked team. However, yesterday alone from UW to Courtyard to Halls I saw a countless number of gl hf's and gg gl next's.

Somewhere else their was a post about how HA'ers are even worse than ABer's. Have you never been to AB? People spend more time spamming "kurdicks" and "suxons" in all chat than they do trying to win.
Even GvG'ers are not above this. Can you honestly say that no one talks shit when a bought BSpike guild beats a top 50 guild? Or that a top 50 guild won't laugh at BSpikers that bought a guild? This is the way people are in today's society. HA is not an exception, but it is not the only place it is happening.

Gforce · Dec 01, 2008, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Well atleast talking shit about bought guilds makes sense while talking shit about "ganks" makes no sense at all half the time. I played randomway this afternoon and when some rspike took 11 mins to kill us they talked shit to us for running "lame blindway", rite.

And yes I do think that AB is pretty bad aswell, but the only reason they talk shit that much is because they get bored having to wait 20 seconds for respawn all the time...

Reverend Dr · Dec 01, 2008, 10:07 PM // 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyros

I know this word also gets thrown alot but players really lack respect and honor toward each other and the vicious cycle of HA ganks is just evidence to that.

There is a flaw in this thought. Even after a team can no longer meet the winning conditions, they are still present in the game.

Back in the old days people had much better tactics in 3 way battles. Now a days people talk much more trash, knock a team out early in the match, then complain when they got ganked.

Its reap what you sow. If a team gets knocked out (no longer able to win) early in the match, there is now a wild card. If your team is largely responsible for them being knocked out, then you are about to reap what was sewn. In days past teams tried hard to keep every team in the game until the end for this very reason.

"Don't aggro other teams." is something a few people I played with used to say. On old KotH matches when it became a standoff he would yell at anyone that sent a stray spell or arrow into another team. It wasn't just because of spike builds prolific at the time. I have seen teams get set off and go on to full gank just because one ranger sent some poison, or one stray AoE spell.

The losing team determins who wins. But the winning teams determine who is the losing team. Be one of the winning teams, but don't be the one that sets off the losing team.

If you think this is wrong, or just don't understand how I can hold such an opinion, then I'd be willing to wager that you are terrible at Risk.

Skyros · Dec 01, 2008, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by TogoTheTiger

HA is not an exception, but it is not the only place it is happening.

except thats where its happening the most... and just cause you see gg's and gl's doesnt change the fact that HA players are RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing shitters. Just cause you see that team say gg doesnt mean the match before they werent flaming and shittin' about another team. OF course what I said is a generalization and there are always exceptions... but to say ha players lack honor and respect is generally true.

and reverend... losing team determines who is the winner is the whole flaw with ha... and what you say in no way contradicts what i said...

the losing team that can no longer team shouldnt be the wild card and determine who of the remaining 2 teams should be. Its what happens yes i know but it shouldnt.

FoxBat · Dec 02, 2008, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Free For All games of all types are always political. HA featured numerous 3-ways (or more) since the beginning and the current 3-way only on Halls is an abberation. Maybe that change is why newbies haven't picked up on Reverend's wisdom.