Curse

Kumlekar · Dec 14, 2008, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sol Deathgard

As a pve necro & talking to alot of other pve necros that actually have some skill, this comment is an insult. Soul Reaping is still rediculously overpowered to the point that the only time I don't have full energy is when there is nothing left to kill. Those people that are pissed off about the "nerf" to soul reaping reaping are the types of players that never were good at this game, & never will be good at this game.
And before anyone starts with the "you're pve you don't know what you're talking about" crap, i've also won Halls, more then once & was in a top 300 gvg team. The only real complaint I have is all the morons out there that demoralize the new players so much that they don't wanna pvp anymore, then turn around & complain about how HA/GvG is dying cause there's no new blood. Those people need to get a life or end theirs.

May I quote you on that? Theres alot of problems with the way nerfs have been handled, but hes finally getting the idea of buffing some mostly unused skills. Sure, some have pissed people off (OoU and Incomming being the best examples), but the biggest reason that theres noone in pvp is because new players are turned away so fast. HA is the best example with all the title requirements, but most gvg guilds do similar things. Any new player is forced to either have a pvp only guild, or sit with the 40 millionth randomway group and watch them lose. Theres no way to actually learn because theres no way to get teams.

DreamWind · Dec 14, 2008, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

And I don't understand people having to state over and over the obvious that GW is a PvE game now.

Because as long as the game is a PvE game, it will never be a PvP game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Productivity

In all seriousness though, Arena Net is in grave danger here of destroying what goodwill is left within the PVP community towards them with their neglect.

There is goodwill left?

Reverend Dr · Dec 15, 2008, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kumlekar

hes finally getting the idea of buffing some mostly unused skills.

Unfortunately he hasn't delt with the power creep yet. If the game was better balanced, buffing unused and underpowered skills would be great, but now he is buffing unused skills to the power creeped level. Things are worse than before.

niek2004 · Dec 15, 2008, 11:34 AM // 11:34

instead of nerfing overpowered skills, izzy makes evrything overpowered, which makes the game balanced.

Also, hes making unused elites playable again.( lingering, shared burden, hundred blades, primal rage etc etc)

Forgotton200 · Dec 15, 2008, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by niek2004

instead of nerfing overpowered skills, izzy makes evrything overpowered, which makes the game balanced.

Also, hes making unused elites playable again.( lingering, shared burden, hundred blades, primal rage etc etc)

So I heard hexes can be automatically reapplied and pets can also shadow step, lol. Since rangers are condition/interrupt and mesmers does the same thing but a nice hex that can reapply, how is it going to turn out for us rangers? I have hard time keeping up with meta.

Marxon Aurion · Dec 15, 2008, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Shadow Stepping pets is just funny lol, it's not imba in any way.

niek2004 · Dec 15, 2008, 03:40 PM // 15:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forgotton200

So I heard hexes can be automatically reapplied and pets can also shadow step, lol. Since rangers are condition/interrupt and mesmers does the same thing but a nice hex that can reapply, how is it going to turn out for us rangers? I have hard time keeping up with meta.

Rangers have enough viable options, IA, melandrus, glass if youre a rspike fhaggot, even magebane is good again with all the hexes

Eddie Frenzy Spam · Dec 16, 2008, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by dilan155

that may happen when an experienced team plays against a inexperienced team, but what if there both same experienced, in the tournaments now a days one team wins by having a build that beat the other teams build , not by having more skill than another. its a bit like rock paper scissors really, just much more complexed.

Uhh no?

Even if we assume, that all players on both teams, play their bars to 100% efficiency (which will NEVER EVER happen) then the match will be decided on a different kind of skill within GvG and that's the tatics.

More realistically speaking though, yes you can have 2 teams playing vs each other that will have similar experience and are very very good, but players on both teams will make mistakes and it will be these mistakes that will decided the matches.

A prime example of this was posted on the QQ forums about the ESL league matches with [KMD] and [sup] playing each other in the finals. Both guilds are extremely high level guilds with simlar experience levels. However throughout the match it was pretty even (or [sup] were marginally winning not sure) but KMD made a possible game winning split when [sup] was in their base. However KMD's Warrior decided to consistently knock-lock [sup]'s lord while [sup]s lord was hexed with empathy and VoR, now had he not done this KMD would have actually won the match as the extra damage from the lord auto attacking and attacking would have killed him but instead he was saved.

It's these minor but game breaking mistakes and decisions that win matches between top guilds, it's not random in any way whatsoever. The same thing would happen in a perfectly balanced game.

Phe Belladona · Dec 16, 2008, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddie the reaper

Uhh no?

Even if we assume, that all players on both teams, play their bars to 100% efficiency (which will NEVER EVER happen) then the match will be decided on a different kind of skill within GvG and that's the tatics.

More realistically speaking though, yes you can have 2 teams playing vs each other that will have similar experience and are very very good, but players on both teams will make mistakes and it will be these mistakes that will decided the matches.

A prime example of this was posted on the QQ forums about the ESL league matches with [KMD] and [sup] playing each other in the finals. Both guilds are extremely high level guilds with simlar experience levels. However throughout the match it was pretty even (or [sup] were marginally winning not sure) but KMD made a possible game winning split when [sup] was in their base. However KMD's Warrior decided to consistently knock-lock [sup]'s lord while [sup]s lord was hexed with empathy and VoR, now had he not done this KMD would have actually won the match as the extra damage from the lord auto attacking and attacking would have killed him but instead he was saved.

It's these minor but game breaking mistakes and decisions that win matches between top guilds, it's not random in any way whatsoever. The same thing would happen in a perfectly balanced game.

Mitch had diversion instead of Empathy, at most the guild lord would have taken 170 extra damage from 2 triggers of VoR.

Riotgear · Dec 16, 2008, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by niek2004

instead of nerfing overpowered skills, izzy makes evrything overpowered, which makes the game balanced.

No, it doesn't, it makes the few things buffed way out of line overpowered and everything else weak.

shoogi · Dec 22, 2008, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Here's another quote for you.
Ah, the nostalgia...

Quote:

Originally Posted by James Phinney (Anet), 4.8.2005, three weeks before the first major skill balance

PvP Playbalance
Given the sophisticated nature of team builds and counters in Guild Wars, we expect to see trends in PvP, as one innovative build changes the landscape, encouraging the use of a counter, which in turn encourages the use of a counter. We have tried to balance Guild Wars to allow for this metagame without allowing the loss of balanced builds and diverse strategies. Since release, we've seen a number of trends come and go, including Warrior Monks, Healing Clusters, Lightning Spike, Enchantment Webs and Spirit Spam. Much, but not all, of the ebb and flow has been in keeping with our goals. Nevertheless, we know that improvements can always be made to playbalance, and we are watching to make sure that no one Flavor of the Month build comes to be too dominant or encourages play in ways that are not fun.
With this in mind, we have been testing a variety of playbalance adjustments internally for some weeks now. We will let players know in advance when playbalance changes are coming so that private tournaments are not disrupted too abruptly. We are also planning to announce our own schedule of ladder seasons and official tournaments. We will try, when possible, to implement most playbalance changes immediately at the start of a new ladder season. You can expect to see another announcement regarding playbalance changes in the near future.
We are also looking into improvements to individual PvP maps, GvG matchmaking for high-rated teams, and ways to ease the burden of needing exactly 8 players to GvG.

Eddie Frenzy Spam · Dec 24, 2008, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phe Belladona

Mitch had diversion instead of Empathy, at most the guild lord would have taken 170 extra damage from 2 triggers of VoR.

Damn you...I actually already knew that as I read the whole thread but was hoping no one else did and so would just take what I said as fact =P

However it was just an example and it was the best one I could think of (excluding the minor wrong detail....which isn't actually very minor...) that would demonstrate my point.

The Fallen One · Dec 31, 2008, 07:16 AM // 07:16

I don't understand why people can't comprehend the deal with new PvP players. When I started PvPing, you could pick up a group, randomway, and learn a bit. Most people were doing the same thing at the time (this is at the beginning now). Now, people are much more organized. THAT'S the reason why noobs have such a hard time entering Guild Wars. The learning curve on it is very high, and it's harder to get up now. Probably something to do with, oh I dunno, GAME BALANCE?
Is it just me who read something that, when parsed, said something to the effect of the following (this was from Anet):
When we made Factions, we made skill effects that were deliberately underpowered, and slowly buffed them into maximum efficiency. In Nightfall, we decided to take a different route. Skills were slightly overpowered, and we slowly brought them down to a more manageable level.

You know what this says to me? They did it on purpose. They want us the hell off of their servers. We've paid our investment, they're not making any more on us. The more people they can get to go away, the less money they have to spend on server crap.

Dmitri3 · Dec 31, 2008, 07:47 AM // 07:47

You know what I don't get?
Supposedly all players in top guilds have access to Izzy forum where he proposes and discusses skill changes.

Uh, so, either this Izzy forum is complete bullshit and useless as hell or all these top players that complain about Izzy/updates are simply hypocrites. Help me out on this one.

kvndoom · Dec 31, 2008, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitri3

You know what I don't get?
Supposedly all players in top guilds have access to Izzy forum where he proposes and discusses skill changes.

Uh, so, either this Izzy forum is complete bullshit and useless as hell or all these top players that complain about Izzy/updates are simply hypocrites. Help me out on this one.

The truth is closer to the first option. Apparently (from reading comments by some who do belong to his secret forum) Izzy thinks he knows everything, and that the people who actually play the game at the highest level don't know shit. So yes, their input is basically useless if they can't convince him that a problem is actually a problem. As is the wiki, and any other GW forum.

pah01 · Dec 31, 2008, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by kvndoom

The truth is closer to the first option. Apparently (from reading comments by some who do belong to his secret forum) Izzy thinks he knows everything, and that the people who actually play the game at the highest level don't know shit. So yes, their input is basically useless if they can't convince him that a problem is actually a problem. As is the wiki, and any other GW forum.

So what your saying is that Izzy is actually that incompetent at skill balance that he has no awareness of said incompetency. Thats pretty sad because when I heard the guy speak on Weapon of choice almost two years ago he did come across as an articulate guy.

What is even sadder is that the evidence is that the above is true.

When you can leave a skill like wail of doom in the state its in and think its ok there is something wrong. Randomly buffing hexes like lingering and mark of insecurity is just asking for broken builds to be played.

Ensign said ages and ages ago that Izzy was balancing skills like he was flailing around in the dark with a chainsaw. True Dat

Joe

Greedy Gus · Dec 31, 2008, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Another thing to keep in mind is that not all "top" players have reached consensus on basic principles to guide how the game should be balanced. I've often cringed upon hearing who might have had izzy's ear this past year and the way they'd like to see things done (especially but not limited to people who weren't even around in GW's early prime).

pah01 · Jan 01, 2009, 07:24 AM // 07:24

That player obviously wasn't ensign.

Ultima pyromancer · Jan 01, 2009, 11:12 PM // 23:12

The only thing you need to worry about is his input in GW2... I mean 3 and a half years and this game is FAR from balanced.

Jaden Stone · Jan 02, 2009, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Izzy gets a lot more hate than he deserves for the amount of work he puts into this game. He really does put a ton of free time into trying to make this game better by putting in extra hours, creating discussion, and even speaking on vent after MaT's to see what the major concerns are. He makes himself available pretty much all the time for major concerns or discussion.

The main problem is he has too much to do. They have him dedicated to GW2 now and he has to do GW1 in his free time, Other than that there would be very little support for balance issues at all. He doesnt get the time to play the game and needs the advice of the high end pvp community to better understand how the game is being played.

Ignoring advise seems to be one of the bigger concerns of the high end GvGers. While it does happen sometimes I cannot say it happens consistantly. Tons of our ideas for the new elites were implemented this update and I'd say bar one or two skills it went well. The sad thing is we all knew mark of inscurity was coming and no one said a thing about it. Unfortunatly looks like even we make mistakes.

Izzy is just trying to make a game that is fun, no perfect balance can ever be met. There will always be templates or builds that are "better". From my understanding of what he wants is People to die, less defense, more movement, and Party moral bars that cross occationaly. The problem is the community does not like dying, they want to win. When they start to lose, they get angry. Problem is someone has to lose in PvP. Players keep bringing rock and losing to paper, instead of trying scissors they ask izzy to fix it so rock can win again. Sad thing is players have not been shifting meta's as guildwars initially inteded, it's had to be done by balance patches to prevent complaints and keep customers happy. This has created and inflexable player base that depends on patches to maintain success.

Skill balancing is not so black and white. Let's take a skill like Linguring curse. The communinty at the moment would scoff at this skill stating it's incredibly imbalanced. The general concensus would be that it is broken, and needs to be rebalanced. But is it really? Hex builds have not been viable for the last 6 months, a little extra party healing and you can beat a hex build no problem, even with little removes. It's in a line with no spike potential, and is currently the only skill allowing for pressure based gameplay. So wouldn't we rather have a skill like this in play than continuing spike wars?

Another interesting case is rend enchantments. Again 90% of the guild wars community will say this skill is broken. What would happen if we removed it from play though? Would spikes suddenly stop killing? no. The only thing keeping conjure+soh stacking in check in deep enchant removal. Spikes will simply bring a replacement, such as gaze, or rip, or strip, or another drain. The kills will still come, and damage compression will be increased. Well lets nerf those too you say! then teams start playing for tiebreakers and never dying.

So in summary, Izzy does a fine job at what he needs to do. He RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs up sometimes but usually fixes it quite quickly. Guildwars is still the most competative PvP RPG on the market today. Izzy does listen, and does ignore bad suggestions but occationaly misses important ones. If you put ensign in izzys shoes and made him work on another game 10 hours a day and do the balancing job of a 5 man team in his freetime while maintaining a real life, the results would most likely be the same.