Curse

lord of all tyria · Jan 26, 2009, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

Not complaining about a bad connection, nor a favorite farming place nerfed. That is a brief history of myself, how I saw updates at that time, and how I came to find these forums.

When PvE'ers complained about PvP balances, PvP'ers tell them in PvE threads to quit whining, go play a different game, etc. Now I as a PvE'er should not be posting in a PvP thread.

Ranger skills are being discussed in this thread, a certain build being "to powerful." Certain Monk skills are also, mentioned in this thread. In the past, I had seen the changes made to the skills I had been using, but only knew that they were changed to appease the PvP crowd. At first when I asked why the changes, I am labeled a whiner.

Like I said in last post, less changes to my game play, because people can't adapt in PvP.

People might be more likely to beat it if they played vs rawr more often, I'm not entirely sure since I am bad, but minimal exposure to people playing rawr build at rawr's level doesn't help.

People do adapt in pvp, but rawr's build is really very good at what it does, which leads to calls for nerfing it. Pretty sure its easy to change a pve build with no impact whatsoever on your gameplay.

Pvpers generally understand how to do pve, pvers generally don't understand how to pvp, thus you need to shut up.

snaek · Jan 26, 2009, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by perkunas

The first update that I actually saw the effects of was the "Loot Scale" update..."What the hell?" After killing every skale, only had 1 item drop....Guild mates were complaining in chat about the drop rate change...The ones that are not involved in PvP are the ones that "pay the price" for the "nerf wars", and are told to quit whining and adapt

how is the loot scaling nerf the fault of pvp'rs?

u got ur pve/pvp split
quit whining and adapt (and also stay on topic)

Ec]-[oMaN · Jan 26, 2009, 09:43 PM // 21:43

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Devel...dates/20080521

"With this week’s update we will introduce a new system to split certain skills into separate PvE and PvP versions. With this system we can update skills for one game type without affecting the other. To prepare players for the changes, we have decided to post this Dev Update as a preview. The skill changes will go live on May 22. "

Bye.

Tab · Jan 26, 2009, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

Not complaining about a bad connection, nor a favorite farming place nerfed. That is a brief history of myself, how I saw updates at that time, and how I came to find these forums.

When PvE'ers complained about PvP balances, PvP'ers tell them in PvE threads to quit whining, go play a different game, etc. Now I as a PvE'er should not be posting in a PvP thread.

Ranger skills are being discussed in this thread, a certain build being "to powerful." Certain Monk skills are also, mentioned in this thread. In the past, I had seen the changes made to the skills I had been using, but only knew that they were changed to appease the PvP crowd. At first when I asked why the changes, I am labeled a whiner.

Like I said in last post, less changes to my game play, because people can't adapt in PvP.

Cry more. I'm sure changing how you beat terrible AI once every few months won't kill you.

Dmitri3 · Jan 26, 2009, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Everyone will always QQ, PvE or PvP, in ANY state of the game. What do you expect?

Perkunas · Jan 26, 2009, 10:39 PM // 22:39

No further comments. Enjoy your PvE free world.

Forgotton200 · Jan 26, 2009, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

No, it's not. It's ranged interrupts and abusing bow attacks. Necroes, Elementalists (on NM), Warriors and Assassins (and maybe Dervishes with imba attacks) are for damage.

If you want a quick ranged damage, you chose wrong character.

One more question like that and I'll start kicking people in their throats.

Use search, check stickied threads...

I thought rangers were always weak at damage after reading his quote. What is this, I don't even

Why is this a PvE discussion I thought this was

urania · Jan 26, 2009, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

lol that guy is whining on a pvp forum because he has a bad internet connection and his favourite farming location got nerfed??

the problem isnt that people dont want to find counters to rawr, its just that the counters that do exist seem extremely flimsy, like the one warrior defensive spike build, while it can win 8v8,rawrs build can beat it in a split situation. rawrs build is simply the best possible one you can use at the moment, its too efficient at everything so if you run anything else you're hurting your own potential. Thats why you saw really bad players come second place in the mAT, finishing better than the euro teams who are 10x better than them.

irrelevant posts should therefore be ignored instead of replied to, which results only in ppl posting more irrelevant posts.

anyhow, at the end of the day the rawr build is still the best one possible currently (and rawr is, ofc, the best one at using it). that doesnt make it any less boring, but yeah...it gets the job done, and nothing (much) will change now anyway.
*sigh*

Master Fuhon · Jan 27, 2009, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

No further comments. Enjoy your PvE free world.

The anti-PvP players comments actually have some relevancy to a "what's wrong with pvp thread", aside from the fact they have clearly been listened to by developers. First, I have to emphasize that there is something wrong with the type of comments criticizing the PvP only player while being a player who holds a strong inflexible bias in favor of PvE. You obviously haven't taken a look at how changes/exploit fixes have worked to keep the game fair for people who play both aspects of this multiplayer game. But in relation to previous comments:

Degrees of skill are demonstrated by comparing oneself to those that have skill, not those without. When talking about skill, people are more concerned about comparison than they are about the yes/no designation. "Can you tie your shoes?" gets a "Yes, I have that skill", but it does nothing to show whether you do it with your eyes closed and one hand tied behind your back. For this reason, real world skill is judged as the ability to overcome difficult challenges despite the tools you do not have available. Skill is not demonstrated by having all tools available and demonstrating the same 'winning' results as a person who lacked those tools. This concept is simple to understand, because it references tools as things outside of the player’s control, and skill as the thing the player can increase to get desired results. However, skill is still not synonymous with winning; if I win at predicting the roll of a fair dice, there is no skill because by definition, a fair dice would always be random even if the person had mental powers. Even if I have tremendous skill in treating injuries, it does not mean I can win against cancer and the effects of old age (assumed undefeatable opponents). In the case of undefeatable opponents, I would need better tools for dealing with them because skill is not enough.

If something is easy to many people, it doesn't matter if you routinely compare your performance with a lower standard to try to make it out to be skill. It's the design doing the work for you; the game designer is skilled at making people think they have skill (I judge this harshly because it inflates perception of skill instead of creating skill where people didn't have it before. It's much more work to cause people to lose a perception than it is to teach a skill). Compare a teacher who actually teaches with a person who tells everyone they are good at something (the second does not participate in the transfer of the proper skill). By those objective standards, if it were skill, the monsters would have access to the same abilities and tactics that you have as a player to try to counter you; instead they have super abilities that only prove how the magnitude of a skill doesn't matter when you have an extreme counter to it. Those monsters that people are farming; most of them stopped changing their builds to counter the people who have been killing them the most. When the monsters are the ones being handicapped by the rule set, there is a far lesser quantity of skill demonstrated by the person who beats them unless you handicap yourself in a similar way.

Continuing on, fairness is not to sabotage a particular side of the game because things haven't gone entirely one way. That kind of fairness would have asked for monsters who constantly adapt to pve opponents or to give monsters complex builds that counter most of what a player could run; nerfs to skills is a very favorable compromise for a PvE player. After all, it's only Charr that taunt defeated opponents. I might think PvE enemies should whisper spam you when you die to make things more fair to what PvP players have to deal with. There also should be an observer mode highlight reel of good PvErs getting humiliated by monsters to attain this concept of 'fairness'. It also probably wouldn't be so obvious something was amiss with those statements if it was January 2008 instead of January 2009. The majority of recent game changes have buffed skills under the guise of shaking things up. There is less PvE adaption to make related to PvP changes, unless you want to swap to new skills to become more effective.

There is no way anyone can make up for imaginary and unspoken injustices, so it's a good thing you elaborated on the fact that you are still holding a grudge over old changes, particularly the farming nerf, created by PvE exploiters instead of good players. The problem was not that the nerfs happened, it was that particular players took impersonal nerfs very personally (although many are manipulative types who put on an act to get their way, I will not rule them as all being this way, despite having not seen a characterization that fits them any other way). I think it should be clear that skills should not give any individual powers beyond anything that was designed to support a multiplayer environment. Unlimited power infringes on the rights of others in a multiplayer environment; that's what farmers had, price setting power because of increasing unlimited wealth. There was no real world economic demand for the skill of killing monsters to regulate the salary of farmers. But if you want fairness, PvP already had a diminishing reward on killing weaker opponents, representative of real world rules where you lose respect for not seeking challenge.

On topic:

However, I'm also going to try to provide specific evidence that there's a build imbalance problem and that this is not fully a case where player skill and lack of adaptation is creating the gap. There was a match where [rawr] didn't have the ranger load. Despite the capabilities of both the skills in the build and the players on rawr to keep things alive, rawr did not flawless the match and lose by Guild Lord tiebreaker due to lack of killing power. One fact is that a good offense can help out the defense by keeping one of the attacking characters dead. But another fact to look at, when rawr's defensive characters have to cast attack skills, they can't cast defensive skills. When they have the combined killing power added by that ranger, the defensive characters have complete freedom to cast the specific defensive skill they need or to contribute to the spike. This is something that has always made a huge difference in spike builds, people have less trouble with spikes that require more characters to attack at once because they can trade kills during the process. For example, if 5 guys are needed to attack and cast 3 skills each to kill something, that's a whole window where only 3 characters are available to heal. Teams usually trade kills during this type of window if play is balanced.

Also, it's a whole other problem if it takes 15 attacks to kill something, and a person decides its worth more to stop and cast a defensive skill than to get the kill. That type of problem will always be based on objectives, and probably be related to penalties of death. The current system still has its own flaws because 'time over' works better in fighting games where things cannot regain health. It's really unfortunate that the problems with objective were being fixed by tampering with skills. But in relations to the game, something may have finally overshadowed the problems with VoD by being a bigger problem itself.

Perkunas · Jan 27, 2009, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

I never really considered the game hard. It was a challenge until I learned the skills and how to string them together. As far as PvE skills go, I don't use them. Only one used was UB in one series of quests in EotN.

I started playing GW Christmas 2005. I played on dialup back then. It took 6 hours to install the game and sometimes 2 hours to change zones. About once a week there would be an "update" that would make me sit through an hour of waiting to logon. I didn't know what the updates were, nor really cared at the time. I would see people complaining, "They nerfed ----, or they buffed ----."

The first update that I actually saw the effects of was the "Loot Scale" update. I had been farming skales outside Fort Ranik, in presearing. Before the update, every skale dropped something on death. After 2 trips, I would need to empty my inventory. On one of the trips to empty my inventory, there was the new build message in chat. I exited and logged right back on, headed out the gate.

"What the hell?" After killing every skale, only had 1 item drop. Zoned into town and back out. Killed all again, 3 drops.

Guild mates were complaining in chat about the drop rate change. One of them had "looked it up" to see what the update was about. This was how I learned of these forums and a couple of other sites. I read up on several of the updates. Hind sight showed me why my Monk was not as effective as she had been, why I had to change skills on my Ranger to get through certain areas that had been fairly easy, but no longer was. Same with my warrior, Nerco, and Ele.

I also begin to see the "rift" between PvE and PvP. PvE complaining about their builds being nerfed, PvP saying "quit whining, adapt, this game was meant to be PvP, need to keep PvP balanced, etc, etc,........."

Everyone likes to win. For many people, winning is all there is. They do almost anything to win. They study the situation, all the factors involved, then determine the best route to use to win. Some of these routes may be difficult or not fun, but it is the winning route. They will try to make the less fun route more fun, by working with "powers that be" to "improve" their choices for winning. These tend to be, IMHO, the Elite ones.

Then you have the group that wants to win, can beat the less experienced with ease, but when they face the Elites, they can't defeat them with the same ease. Instead of putting in the time to study what the Elites are using and looking for the best counters, they start screaming, "Nerf --- and ---. They are to overpowered!" or "Buff ---- and -----, they are too weak!"

The ones that are not involved in PvP are the ones that "pay the price" for the "nerf wars", and are told to quit whining and adapt. If we venture onto your turf and tell you what you tell us on our turf, we get "What are you doing here?" What you do in "your" world also has effects on "our" world.

All I want to see, is less changes made in my game play, because you can't spend enough time to find a way to win against someone that has spent that needed time.

Sorry, but I had to respond once more. The "Loot Scale" comment was not a grudging whine. It was the first update that I saw the effects of. When I came to the forums, that is when I discovered why I had to make changes to builds that were not working as they had. And the reasons these changes were being made to my game, was for the PvP side. I understand that balance has to be maintained, but I ask to minimize the changes to my game. Yes the changes made today are now split PvP/PvE.

What I am reading in this thread, the AI [rawr], is too strong, nerf them. What I get told if I complain about AI, is to change, adapt, quit whining.

Hope this clears up what I am trying to say. This is absolutely my last post.

Peace.

Reverend Dr · Jan 27, 2009, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

What I am reading in this thread, the AI [rawr], is too strong, nerf them. What I get told if I complain about AI, is to change, adapt, quit whining.

This makes no sense, much like your posting.

Forgotton200 · Jan 27, 2009, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

Sorry, but I had to respond once more. The "Loot Scale" comment was not a grudging whine. It was the first update that I saw the effects of. When I came to the forums, that is when I discovered why I had to make changes to builds that were not working as they had. And the reasons these changes were being made to my game, was for the PvP side. I understand that balance has to be maintained, but I ask to minimize the changes to my game. Yes the changes made today are now split PvP/PvE.

What I am reading in this thread, the AI [rawr], is too strong, nerf them. What I get told if I complain about AI, is to change, adapt, quit whining.

Hope this clears up what I am trying to say. This is absolutely my last post.

Peace.

I thought AI = artificial intelligence. Not sure if [rawr] is AI, I always thought they were real player. It didn't clear up anything, unless AI has another meaning.

In before:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perkunas

lol i troll u

Seems like this forum is full of trolls, I'm really getting tired of this.

Krill · Jan 27, 2009, 12:16 PM // 12:16

WTB CliffsNotes for #109?

It seems the OP's point were totally lost somewhere here.

I can see why Izzy threw in the towel trying to make a balanced game and started making skills that were ostensibly "fun", and I repent for every negative thing I've ever said about how he does his job. The honor crusaders should stop, play rawr's build and show everyone how truly awesome this game is for competition. In fact there shouldn't even be an option to bring other builds to mAT's, everyone should automatically load in mirrored as the previous months winner. That should be the last fix needed for a truly balanced game. Maybe game servers in Nigeria too so everyone lags like hell.

Master Fuhon · Jan 27, 2009, 07:24 PM // 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

WTB CliffsNotes for #109?

Sorry for making that complex. But I give long abstract answers, because a long abstract answer can be used in any way based on the person receiving it. It can be interpreted as an answer, it can be used to debate against, or it can finish someone else's thought should they agree with what was said. If I gave a specific answer, someone could discredit it anyway. So why not give the answer at the theory level so the entire theory can be discredited, that way I don't have to worry about giving a similar wrong answer again. The original answer was not intended specifically for you, but if I must make it so:

I should have said that the definition of skill is objectively determined by a world-wide consensus of the usage of the word (I tried to interpret a common usage). Most arguments involve someone using their own personal definitions of words (semantics). If we should adapt to rawr, then it should be because they have skill. This is where I mentioned the word tools, because those are not the same as skill. Those with skill should seek to prove they do their work without the tools that grant power. People are willing to worship, but they do not worship false idols who gain power from tools. Instead, they seek to have control over the tools themselves.

If you want to say someone has skill, the disbelievers require proof. Separate the 'skilled' from the 'tools'. As long as the skilled continue to change their ways as the tools change, the doubters have their justification to doubt. My specific reference to rawr is that they changed their approach when they were without their ranger, a small hint that the 'tools' are being allowed to do much of the work for them. I may have mistaken it for another thing, where suddenly someone's individual skill is not so high without a particular teammate; it's usually a message that more than just the individual is responsible. I think that’s what some are seeking; if you can use the tools against them you can prove it is the tools doing the job. That’s only impossible if the tools have truly been customized to be used by them most effectively (that actually happens in competitive sport, rules based around particular players; because the sport is meant to keep popularity, and most fans will only be imitators)

But when you think of whom people consider the most skilled, they had injuries and all kinds of obstacles thrown at them to impede them. The gaming world does not throw those obstacles at you, but that adds to the delusion that real world rules do not infringe on the gaming world. Not faulting anyone for seeking to get lost in the power of the tools; but if you expect everyone else to revolve around someone they need whatever they consider to be proof of skill. Tools can be considered anything: cheats, hacks, powerful skills, easy winning strategies, teammates, etc. It depends based on whatever high standard people are holding you to. Skill is what you have left without the tools. And this is related to the topic because people are complaining about balance instead of believing rawr is winning because of skill.

Byron · Jan 28, 2009, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Rawr is balance.

(Who are you people?)

HotPocket · Jan 29, 2009, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

WTB CliffsNotes for #109?

It seems the OP's point were totally lost somewhere here.

I can see why Izzy threw in the towel trying to make a balanced game and started making skills that were ostensibly "fun", and I repent for every negative thing I've ever said about how he does his job. The honor crusaders should stop, play rawr's build and show everyone how truly awesome this game is for competition. In fact there shouldn't even be an option to bring other builds to mAT's, everyone should automatically load in mirrored as the previous months winner. That should be the last fix needed for a truly balanced game. Maybe game servers in Nigeria too so everyone lags like hell.

Although that solves the whole "balance issue", it takes half the fun out of using builds. Using that means the best man will win, which is [rawr]. And then you can't try anything besides what they use, and that means nothing new for you.

Would you really want to make sure that you never get to see a sprinkle of creativity in your GvG so that it is balanced?

Besides, people always have the option of using [rawr]'s build, if they want to QQ then they can go and use that build. Then it will be an actual test of skill, and they won't be able to QQ sense they were beaten fair and square by an opposing team with the same build.

Krill · Jan 29, 2009, 01:27 AM // 01:27

^ I was making a poor attempt @ sarcasm.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 29, 2009, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by HotPocket

Then it will be an actual test of servers

Fixed. 123456

I Angra I · Jan 29, 2009, 02:35 PM // 14:35

I didn't read everything in the thread but I agree with the OP and what Mitch was saying on the first page.

The huge difference between defensive spike builds back in the GWWC/GWFC days and now, is that back then there was coordinated shutdown that was taking place in addition to the spike. Blackout, gale, etc. Now, none of that is even needed because of how much damage a super defensive build can pack in because of bar compression and what was being talked about in the OP.

I highly agree that turret ranger bars need to be looked at, especially BA's damage, and hunter's shot's fast attack speed. Rend is also a problem. Fc water mesmers are a problem as well because of their ability to spam out so much defense (and offense, steam doing ~80 damage for example) without even being able to be shut down. A good fix for fc water would be to move glyph immolation into energy storage, I think. That way there is only snares and blurred which are able to be run, which is a lot less bar compression than snares, blurred, and blind all together.

valence · Jan 29, 2009, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

A good fix for fc water would be to move glyph immolation into energy storage.

the skills are not the problem, fc itself is. fc not working on any non-mesmer skill with casting time of 1 or below would be a nice fix.