Curse

Divinus Stella · Feb 06, 2009, 04:38 PM // 16:38

I actually think Karrde is right about most of those points, i can see why hes getting trolled but his points are valid.

They really need to sort out turrets. Paragons are acceptable as ranged damage dealers since they suck at everything else but rangers deal more damage, split better and have spammable interrupts.

Krill · Feb 06, 2009, 04:52 PM // 16:52

About the turret rangers, does anyone else think the nerf to sloth hunter's may have actually contributed to the problem (after ED was taken care of)? It seems backwards but that was the only skill you could help spike with on a ranger that had 10 marks with poison, without it you kinda have to bring turret rangers. BTW I think spamming hunters-melandru's-savage also counts as turreting, but apparently that's cool as long as you have poison instead of RtW. At any rate the days of cripshot and troll are long gone, you just can't bring a ranger that doesn't do some damage.

keli · Feb 06, 2009, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Karrde

Prove it.

Prove to me it takes more skill to run a Me/E or a Me/N than a normal mesmer

Prove to me Turret rangers arent overpowered

Prove to me Primal Rage isnt warrior made easier

Prove to me that there arent characters in the meta now that are superb at defense and offense.

Prove to me Pressure is still viable.

I made my points. disporve them or disagree with them dont flame. It just makes you look like you dont have anything good to say back so you flame.

I gave my opinion based on my play and what I see and what I see in the boring mats.

Give me concrete evidence that Im a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing retard in what I said.

1. what mitch said
2. they do as much dmg as poison rangers do, just they inflict dmg instead of pressure thats all, i dont think they are frickin overpowered (do you know what is overpowered? mallyx...)
3. why would it be warrior made easy? i dont understand the point.
4. maybe there are but these arent that overpowered imo (i think your problem is the midline ritualist, well.. )
5. pressure isnt viable? in the last month 90% of the builds were pressure builds (me/n+smiter.. dont tell me these arent pressure oriented...)

and answering to your previous post..
calm down mate its a game you take it too seriously,
and yes im not a native english speaker so i make mistakes sorry..

ps. we also give our oppinion on what we experience in the game...

people think that a build is overpowered if they cant beat it...

Ec]-[oMaN · Feb 06, 2009, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

they do as much dmg as poison rangers do, just they inflict dmg instead of pressure thats all, i don't think they are frickin overpowered

You're forgetting the fact that poison has to stick in order for pressure to be applied. Read the wind ranger/warrior bars cause direct and instant dmg, these rangers can also use vamp flat bows because flight time is reduced making that ridiculous arc actually hit moving foes now, almost instant ability to interrupt skills, and flail to just fuel the madness, there really is no comparison to poison rangers and RTW rangers. Have you ever played an Apply poison mel shot ranger, and then played a RTW burning arrow? The latter can take off 1/3 a health bar in 2 attacks, and if the burning is left alone it becomes 1/2 bar gone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

why would it be warrior made easy? i dont understand the point.

Read this thread over, pay attention to Ensign's posts if you come across them.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10343574

Better yet, go GvG and roll up Frenzy/shock/evis/exe/free/bulls/rush/rez, play a few matches, then try a Primal Rage bar. Come back here with your observations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by keli

5. pressure isn't viable? in the last month 90% of the builds were pressure builds (me/n+smiter.. don't tell me these aren't pressure oriented...)

As of yesterday pressure isn't viable(read over the skill update), you could even argue pre nerf to yesterday pressure wasn't viable vs a certain meta build that has been played for ages now.

scruffy · Feb 06, 2009, 05:54 PM // 17:54

the only build that pressure isnt viable against are the 1 warrior gimmick spikes and rawr spike, when turret rangers get balanced and sorted out i think the game will be in a really good spot

ChopChop · Feb 06, 2009, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Better yet, go GvG and roll up Frenzy/shock/evis/exe/free/bulls/rush/rez, play a few matches, then try a Primal Rage bar. Come back here with your observations.

My observation is that Evicserate does more spike damage and is easier to land spike kills with.
Primal does more pressure and has less 'instagib' potential.

Primal is better for skirmish fights, evics is better in spike builds, which do you want to promote more?

pah01 · Feb 07, 2009, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChopChop

My observation is that Evicserate does more spike damage and is easier to land spike kills with.
Primal does more pressure and has less 'instagib' potential.

Primal is better for skirmish fights, evics is better in spike builds, which do you want to promote more?

Primal Rage allows you to build dismember very fast. Also given that burning arrow, caretakers etc have very fast recharges I would say that there is a great deal of evidence for the exact opposite of what you are saying.

Joe

ChopChop · Feb 07, 2009, 03:32 AM // 03:32

If the motivation is purely to spike with dismember then a WE build using dash to get to the target is also more effective, keep in mind I did not say primal is a poor skill to use, but it does not serve as well on a template that is the main/only source of spike calling.

Likewise I would not run primal if I knew for certain the match would only take place at the flag stand.

Fact remains, primal warriors do not deal significant damage to stationary targets, and thus are also among the slowest warrior templates at taking down NPCs.

keli · Feb 07, 2009, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

As of yesterday pressure isn't viable(read over the skill update), you could even argue pre nerf to yesterday pressure wasn't viable vs a certain meta build that has been played for ages now.

i think it was viable against rawr spike also, just not against rawr, because they play that build pretty well (when we used rawrspike we lost to some hexways, when we ran hexway we could defeat sheepys (doh) team wich was running rawrspike, just my experience)

dusanyu · Feb 07, 2009, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Well Just to Point out What Chop Chop Was saying i hit the Isle of the nameless and smaked the 60 Armor barrels around a bit using 4 different builds

Build 1 Traditional Shock Axe with Agonizing Chop (20/20 Axe 15^50 +20)

Auto attack : 13-37
Executioners : 63 Damage +DW
Evis.:72 Damage
Agonizing: 32 Damage

Build 2 Primal rage Shock axe (20/20 Axe 15^50 +20)

Auto attack : 13-37
Executioners : 63 Damage
Dismember: 30 Damage +dw
Agonizing: 32 Damage

Build 3: Conjure + Eviscerate
Auto attack: 20-64
Executioners: 70
Eviscerate: 108 +DW
Agonizing :57

Buld 4: Conjure PR
Auto attack: 20-64
Executioners: 70
Dismember: 34 +DW
Agonizing :57

Note the above taken From a Single Spike on a +60 Barrel in the Isle of the nameless so your millage may very also seance the Tests were preformed on a Barrel and not a live person Bulls Strike Damage was omitted

quod erat demonstrandum
Eviscerate is Stronger in Spiking than Primal

IMMORTAlMITCH · Feb 07, 2009, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChopChop

My observation is that Evicserate does more spike damage and is easier to land spike kills with.
Primal does more pressure and has less 'instagib' potential.

Primal is better for skirmish fights, evics is better in spike builds, which do you want to promote more?

Primal is better for Polly prison splitting and running flags with warriors, which do you want to promote more?

kalzu · Feb 07, 2009, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by dusanyu

Well Just to Point out What Chop Chop Was saying i hit the Isle of the nameless and smaked the 60 Armor barrels around a bit using 4 different builds

Build 1 Traditional Shock Axe with Agonizing Chop (20/20 Axe 15^50 +20)

Auto attack : 13-37
Executioners : 63 Damage +DW
Evis.:72 Damage
Agonizing: 32 Damage

Build 2 Primal rage Shock axe (20/20 Axe 15^50 +20)

Auto attack : 13-37
Executioners : 63 Damage
Dismember: 30 Damage +dw
Agonizing: 32 Damage

Build 3: Conjure + Eviscerate
Auto attack: 20-64
Executioners: 70
Eviscerate: 108 +DW
Agonizing :57

Buld 4: Conjure PR
Auto attack: 20-64
Executioners: 70
Dismember: 34 +DW
Agonizing :57

Note the above taken From a Single Spike on a +60 Barrel in the Isle of the nameless so your millage may very also seance the Tests were preformed on a Barrel and not a live person Bulls Strike Damage was omitted

quod erat demonstrandum
Eviscerate is Stronger in Spiking than Primal

Wait, what??
Evis->exe is more damage than dismember->exe???

On a more serious note. Now that Izzy pretty much nerfed the retardedly OP'd crap that might've had a chance of taking rawrspike down, he might want to tone rawrspike down as well. 'Cause, you know, no matter how much tactical depth and skillful play it brings to the table it's still pretty damn boring to play.

And yeah, I've no idea what this thread should be about.

Lord Nibiru · Feb 07, 2009, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Ritualists should be deleted from Guild Wars, or banned from GvG.
They are the only real problem.

Master Fuhon · Feb 07, 2009, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChopChop

evics is better in spike builds

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChopChop

Fact remains, primal warriors do not deal significant damage to stationary targets, and thus are also among the slowest warrior templates at taking down NPCs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dusanyu

Eviscerate is Stronger in Spiking than Primal

The beginning of killing something starts when the decision is made in a player's mind. There are many kinds of builds that shorten the gap between when the player makes that decision and when he deals that first strike of damage (ranged damage dealers, shadow steps, run speed increases). In the case of the NPCs surrounding the Guild Lord, the decision is sometimes made out of radar range. Whether or not you strike a bit harder matters less to a defending character; the defending character reacts mostly on whether the attack has been telegraphed beforehand when he makes his decision. Even if what you say is right, all issues involving skills are debatable on these grounds.

If we are talking about spike, we do not have to be so conventional as to make it 1-2-3 spike. We should be realizing the unconventional, the attacks that the defense does not see coming. A spike that brings a character from 75% to 0% and takes 3 characters is going to be more disguisable than a spike that brings someone from 100% to 0% and takes 4 characters, even though mathematically they look the same. The warrior contributes a valuable role to the spike in that he disguises his role by dealing 25% of the damage to as many vulnerable targets as possible. The Eviscerate warrior, while being the more powerful individual spike, does not necessarily make the better team spiking character. I believe that the better team spiking characters would individually be determined based upon an ability to disguise their attacks.

I can talk more about NPCs because there are fewer variables. On demand run speed boost is only comparable to what Sprint/Enraging Charge do. If the Eviscerate warrior has Rush, he doesn't have the same opportunities to run in and kill, he might prefer to chain the kills off of having rush available. A good number of kills happen when there is no one back in time to defend, without the run speed boost it could be a close call with someone else at the base. Knowing that a close call might happen is enough to discourage someone from trying to finish a kill, especially if they expect to be snared to death.

I know there are some people who play the game right now and look at a past warrior bar with Sprint and think “that guy was dumb he could have saved energy using Rush, all players today know more about the game”. Playing 8v8 removed some of the thinking involved in skirmish, and Primal Rage eliminated most of the thinking that was left. A warrior might not be ranged character NPC killing fast (as long as it's a char with speed boosts), but NPC killing speed is not strictly measurable in damage when it comes to all practical applications. Maybe run speed boosts were never in the range of balance to encourage this discussion.

If someone wanted to give interesting math, figure out at what distance a PR warrior can run to a target and kill it before a variation of an Eviscerate warrior can. At least that could possibly generate some results on how run speed compares to damage on a warrior bar. Utility is far more difficult to generate math on, I’m only capable of using intuition to try to place a value judgment on those types of skills.

ChopChop · Feb 07, 2009, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Primal is better for Polly prison splitting and running flags with warriors, which do you want to promote more?

If your going to troll you will need to show more intelligence than that.

Its no great secret that I prefer a game where players actually die, it is also no great secret that I run primal because it helps me achieve that more easily,and lastly it is also no secret that I am against pure instagib spikes used to achieve those player deaths.
I seem to remember killing quite alot of people all over the place last we played, the fact that your primal warrior only managed to be a flag nuisance is your problem not mine.

As far as primal being good for warriors running flags, see last point, if a warrior is holding no shield, takes double damage and you consider that a problem then I pity you.

As far as Fuhon goes I am not entirely sure what your argument is.
Are you saying primal is bad or overpowered because it is more powerful than eviscerate?
Or are you saying that primal is good because it is more powerful than eviscerate and supports a less spiky play style.

My opinion is the latter, I want primal to be the warrior elite of choice because of the 3 it is the one with the weakest spike but the most utility, makes for more interesting games.

Also unlike you I believe that primal does not take the intelligence away from playing, split play always requires individual decision making, and actually having a solid speed buff means you are less tied to a certain position thus have more opportunities to move about on the map, which eventually leads back to the character needing to make more decisions about where he should be.

Compared to primal a WE or evics wars life is easier, he can't really move away from the stand much and when he does he will be slow so he gives up more 'stand time' and the other team have plenty of time to react, often meaning he only splits in situations that are very clear and easy to decide in.

Master Fuhon · Feb 07, 2009, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Eviscerate is weak because everyone learned the sound it makes and how it was going to be used on a spike. I gave my opinions on spiking, and how the metagame can shift towards more covert spiking instead of obvious spiking. In a discussion on covert vs. obvious spiking, I think the players have the tools in game to deal with brainless obvious spiking. Good players would have already been using Eviscerate to covertly spike if such a skill were not so inflexible based on design. Complaints about turrets and shadowstepping are about someone switching targets and unloading without much time to react.

Primal Rage is good because people don't have the knowledge on how to deal with it yet, but it also gives the player some advantages he doesn't even have to think about. 8v8 warriors who were packing Rush as purely a cancel suddenly developed the knowledge to utilize PR for on demand running tasks. The recharge is still good for giving mobility to an otherwise 8v8 designed character.

A warrior running across entire maps isn't generating a meta game where things die, strategically that is not what you do with the best damage dealer in the game. It's a benefit that 8v8 didn't need, not in a game where split is tapering off. The 8v8 metagame is purely the problem with things dying, teams will not lack the defensive skills that keep things alive in an 8v8 fight. All damage buffs will likely be countered by fitting more defense in. Things used to die because of a well orchestrated agressive rush where the defending team was forced to break and chased something. Right now defensive teams are staying composed, easily sending back help, and maintaining defense webs.

I've stated I think it is a better tool for spiking although the math is difficult on the subject. This is partially related to dismember being on fast recharge, but it's also related to warrior damage patterns. A bunch of hits is called pressure, but it each individual hit is a weak spike. Remove the flat line of the graph (time spent moving between targets), and you have a high pressure machine that people do not recognize as a disguised portion of a spike. It does not matter that someone can use the build for pressure, if the damage generation is high enough, for all practical purposes it's just as good as a spike when you choose to compress the damage to fit into any window.

The difficulty increase to playing PR warrior over Evis warrior came with an increase in power given by the skill. If someone is still playing like an Evis warrior, they were made more effective as I have tried to explain in my disguised spike analogy. If someone is choosing to do other things with the skill, they have been made far more effective. As people have already complained about, PR warriors are defending bases and running flags. Why would that type of meta be oriented towards things dying?

Robster Lobster · Feb 07, 2009, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Axe warrior's are already very versatile. That Primal Rage makes Axe/Sword warrior's more versatile isn't necessarily untrue, but a 5e gale instead of shock would also make them more versatile, so would a 1/2s activation on D-chop - that doesn't mean that these changes should be made.

There's a lot that I don't really like about Primal Rage. On the warrior side of things I think it devalues various aspects of play that many people consider skillful.Squidget wrote a post a while ago where he talks about using position to push teams together in order to increase pressure by reducing the distance needed to travel between targets. Any value gained from this is reduced significantly by Primal Rage being the elite of choice, as swapping targets becomes very easy. This ties in with stance management, I think a lot of people would consider usage of Frenzy and Rush to be fairly important for good players, Frenzying at the wrong time on a target could end up with them kiting away and forcing you to cancel, whereas staying in Rush too often means you're not going to be doing as much damage. Primal Rage obviously removes this skill from the game. Also, Bull's strike seems to be much easier to hit when in Primal Rage, and consequently it becomes much harder to deal with on the other end. Bull's Strike is one of the more interesting skills in the game, and the mindgames and strategies it can create form a very interesting dynamic that seems to have been unnecessarily changed for the sake of Primal Rage.

I also think that Primal Rage really hurts the level of play from all other players in the match. Kiting is the big issue for me, one of the most important and fundamental skills in the game becomes very ineffective against Primal Rage, and the amount of damage it can now mitigate is significantly lower. Splitting for non-Primal Rage warrior's is also a lot more difficult, as a Primal Rage warrior can very easily control the entire map, without really sacrificing anything at stand.

I really don't like the effect that Primal Rage is having on the game, and I think warrior's were already a pretty balanced class before it was changed, with several different options, and some other potential for changes to increase diversity (I think a buff to Final Thrust could push more Sword warrior builds into the game for example).

Master Fuhon · Feb 07, 2009, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Agreed on those points.

I'd go farther and say that Dismember is a more powerful skill than people would recognize, and at this moment we know the top two non-hammer warrior builds (WE and PR) would both be using it. The magic of the warrior spike is the deep wound. Eviscerate just made is so blatantly obvious that the deep wound was there so people learned to adapt around that. This is another thing killing off sword and the minimal effects of bleeding induced pressure.

But right now, I don't know if it's because Dismember has a low recharge or because people are falling asleep when dealing with warrior spikes. But probably going 3 years back you would have seen complaints about deep wound, and right now we are having a discussion on +dmg being more powerful in a spike. It's going to take alot of +dmg to make up for applying deep wound. It's also an added bonus of Dismember that people aren't still in awe of the power of Deep Wounding something in pvp.

I am adding that any warrior bar can be spikey because of Deep Wound application, and the followup skill that activates it (and the closeness of any other skill dealt afterwards). The other bonus Primal Rage adds is the adrenaline building from not being as kitable, which Bull's Strike gives another type of warrior. That really makes it a faster charging Deep Wound on the standard Axe bar that people already loved to run.

Edit: Just read the Squidget post, amazing, and just what I was thinking about as far as strategy is concerned and needed put into words. Last of Master used to get them to pull apart with his agressive rush, they would come together to beat on Soul Wedding. It's certainly one of the better things to watch when a team knew how to do that.

Wild Karrde · Feb 08, 2009, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChopChop

Its no great secret that I prefer a game where players actually die, it is also no great secret that I run primal because it helps me achieve that more easily,

Also unlike you I believe that primal does not take the intelligence away from playing, split play always requires individual decision making, and actually having a solid speed buff means you are less tied to a certain position thus have more opportunities to move about on the map, which eventually leads back to the character needing to make more decisions about where he should be.

Compared to primal a WE or evics wars life is easier, he can't really move away from the stand much and when he does he will be slow so he gives up more 'stand time' and the other team have plenty of time to react, often meaning he only splits in situations that are very clear and easy to decide in.

bolded parts...
So.... Primal makes your job easier... but if you were a WE or Evis your job would be easier..... huh.

PR also gives more lenience towards a poor split decision because of the freedom to move about the battlefield more.

ChopChop · Feb 08, 2009, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wild Karrde

bolded parts...
So.... Primal makes your job easier... but if you were a WE or Evis your job would be easier..... huh.

PR also gives more lenience towards a poor split decision because of the freedom to move about the battlefield more.

Whats there not to get?
Primal = easier to achieve kills by maneuvering and skirmish play.
WE/Evisc = eaiser to make decisions on since it has less utility and is more tied to just calling spikes.

Also good teams punish you for poor split decisions, the fact that you have to make more on a primal warrior doesn't make it 'easier'.

why don't we flip this thing around though, what skills would you rather see your opponent use?
Personally I *want* teams to use primal warriors because it leads to less spike showdowns and more interesting play.
Trying to balance the need to present a kill threat at the stand with a constantly changing split and staying on top of the flag running game is much more involving and interesting than having stationary warriors spike each other at the stand.

But then again do not take my post as an attempt to change your opinion, you already got what you want, this latests patch moved the game back to pretty much what it was 3 months ago.
It made pressure much weaker, killed off a few pressure only templates and created more spikeable targets, thanks for the buff to our build Andrew Patrick!

If you really want to change the game then arguing about mindless changes to hum sig, primal, lingering etc. does nothing.
The big changes that are needed is a nerf to the amount of healing that party healing skills such as koala pot and divine healing etc. can output then you will see a real meta shift.

Give people a reason not to use rit flag runners and something will change, sadly not by much since most viable templates have been killed off by popular opinion that any build which doesn't feature 2 warriors, a ranger, a mesmer and 2 monks, is inherently overpowered.
This limits the game enormously for no gain other than when less different templates work then people have less to complain about.

Whether anyone cares what my opinion is really doesn't matter to me, I am not trying to defend anything I do or any skills I use, we have been through enough cycles of nerfing whatever rawr won with that I have disengaged myself from caring about the state of the meta, if you you are anet wants what I would consider a fun game then you can listen, if not then I don't mind spiking my way through another mAT.