Curse

FoxBat · Jan 14, 2009, 07:16 PM // 19:16

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Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

What's that gonna do, you still will be able to burning arrow+insta hunters, just your next interupt won't be instant.

~70 less dmg on a spike w/out savage?

Phe Belladona · Jan 14, 2009, 10:14 PM // 22:14

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Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Running a highly defensive spike lets poorer players stay in the match longer.

Staying in the match longer =! better chance of winning.

Minimalistic offense doesn't even do what you are touting it does.

actually for a spike build staying in the match longer does increase your chance of winning... very obviously.

lutz · Jan 14, 2009, 10:48 PM // 22:48

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Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Running a highly defensive spike lets poorer players stay in the match longer.

Staying in the match longer =! better chance of winning.

Minimalistic offense doesn't even do what you are touting it does.

Have you even read the original post?

First of all the "highly defensive spike" you're referring to actually packs a lot of offense thanks to buffs to Burning Arrow and Hunter's Shot, as well as decent offensive skills available to highly defensive characters (e.g. Caretaker's Charge, Ancestor's Rage, Steam, etc.).

The "highly defensive spike" you talk about can put out a decent amount of pressure against other teams which is why it is so imbalanced. This pressure primarily comes from Burning Arrow (which does 200 damage per use) and the spike damage comes from the high damage compression available on all characters.

lutz · Jan 14, 2009, 10:58 PM // 22:58

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Originally Posted by Ex Death

Nerfing the Burning Arrow->Hunter's Shot->Savage Shot won't be enough. Obviously hunter's shot is the main problem because of the 1 sec cast but all the 1 sec cast skills will need to be nerfed by removing the cast time. NOT by reducing the numbers (as was done previously) because at 14 marksmanship and with read the wind it will inherently produce massive spike damage no matter what the numbers are. Scaling flail properly is also necessary.

If only hunter's shot is nerfed most probably people will simply run something like:

Sloth Hunter's->Penetrating/Power shot->Punishing shot

This still keeps the same utility as the current bar, essentially swapping savage shot for punishing and has similar spike damage.

Maybe a fix for hunter's shot (as not to destroy the skill for normal ranger bars) would be to remove the cast time and + damage and make it apply unconditional bleeding. Careful consideration for the length of bleeding and recharge of the skill would need to be applied but this should promote more pressure.

Punishing Shot doesn't do 200 damage like Burning Arrow does.

I should probably make it a requirement, before responding to this thread, to read the descriptions of ALL THE SKILLS THAT ARE MENTIONED. You know, so people know what they're talking about before they respond.

Ex Death · Jan 14, 2009, 11:26 PM // 23:26

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Originally Posted by lutz

Punishing Shot doesn't do 200 damage like Burning Arrow does.

I should probably make it a requirement, before responding to this thread, to read the descriptions of ALL THE SKILLS THAT ARE MENTIONED. You know, so people know what they're talking about before they respond.

I think you completely missed my point. In no way did I imply that burning arrow does similar damage to punishing shot. Rather that the aforementioned combo of Sloth Hunter's->Penetrating/Power shot->Punishing shot is similar spike damage to the current Burning->Hunter's->Savage and would provide an adequate alternative if hunter's shot is nerfed. If anything, you should re-read other's posts more thoroughly.

Further to my previous post I would just like to make the point that if ranger 1 sec casts are removed this would have to include Melandru's Shot also (which is a shame). Otherwise it could be slotted in as an alternative to Hunter's Shot in the spike combo and would provide even more utility to the already overpowered bar (cripple).

lutz · Jan 14, 2009, 11:50 PM // 23:50

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Originally Posted by Ex Death

I think you completely missed my point. In no way did I imply that burning arrow does similar damage to punishing shot. Rather that the aforementioned combo of Sloth Hunter's->Penetrating/Power shot->Punishing shot is similar spike damage to the current Burning->Hunter's->Savage and would provide an adequate alternative if hunter's shot is nerfed. If anything, you should re-read other's posts more thoroughly.

Further to my previous post I would just like to make the point that if ranger 1 sec casts are removed this would have to include Melandru's Shot also (which is a shame). Otherwise it could be slotted in as an alternative to Hunter's Shot in the spike combo and would provide even more utility to the already overpowered bar (cripple).

If you wanted a pure spike, you might as well play ranger spike.
The post is about a build that can pressure as well as spike, and has massive defense.

I'm pretty sure you haven't read the initial post.

Phe Belladona · Jan 15, 2009, 01:43 AM // 01:43

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Originally Posted by lutz

If you wanted a pure spike, you might as well play ranger spike.
The post is about a build that can pressure as well as spike, and has massive defense.

I'm pretty sure you haven't read the initial post.

you're talking about rawrspike.. it only pressures if faintheartness is your only defense cause you want to run hexspam midliner. it doesnt pressure builds that dont sacrifice all their defense for a 4min face rape match with lingering. its a spike build when/if lingering gets nerf'd everyone will go back to FC Water and realise its just a spike and go back to asking for a Rend nerf. tbh the game has stacked OP'd thing ontop of each other so much it cant go back ever.. Primal gets nerf -> WE which is still OP'd but just not as OP'd as Primal lol

rawr have created the most airtight victory engine build i think you could with whats available, their focus is stay alive, then packs just enough to kill. its impressive just a shame its boring as hell to play and thats the reason the game shouldnt be balanced around it. if you think its cause ppl care about "oh noes honour!" its not.. its cause ppl want to have FUN when they play their GAME, yeh say "haha you'll never win gold with a dom mesmer" but ppl enjoy dom mesmer and thats a good thing.

so yeh pewpew rangers are OP'd need something done with 1sec activations and flail down to 1sec 0strength (also deals with assassins a bit) and just tone down BAs damage, Lingering 10 energy and both lingering and suffering -3 degen at 13+, Lyssa's aura reapplies when you cast a mesmer spell and make its duration scale duration 9 secs at 11 (make it hard to keep up on nonmesmer bars even if they have Waste Not) Rend Enchants i saw something quite good making it a Hex which works similarly to Spotless Mind and removes an enchant every 5 seconds because everyone KNOWS its OP'd to remove 6 enchants for 5 energy and "whats left over" attribute investment. PBlock needs to be brought down to allow ppl to actually run nonFC midliners 15sec recharge 6 second disable 10 energy i think isnt too terrifying. oh and make PoD remove 2 enchants max and deal 47 damage per monk enchant removed to bring the doom spike of rubbishness into line. Palm Strike needs 8 sec recharge. and.. oh smite monks and oh ffs there is too much. yeh i'd give up.. oh i forgot stop warriors being the fastest profession the game has ever known its just retarded, and nerf WE too..

im done for now there will ofc be things that need addressing for these changes but im tired, feel free to point out alterations but please dont pretend certain skills are balanced because you abuse them and like the results

EDIT: I would happily take Diversion if it was elite - Shatter, Diversion, PLeak, Pdrain, Insp Enchant, EBurn, Shame, Res... the domination lines power doesnt come from its elite unless all you're able to do is PBlock and fail at all other skills

God_Hand · Jan 15, 2009, 09:01 PM // 21:01

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Originally Posted by moriz

PnH and escape are actual elites. in the case of escape, it is only marginally more powerful than natural stride and eats up an elite slot. PnH cannot be run on a ranger for obvious reasons.

even though you can't use mend touch on a turret, you still have the almighty dshot, so my point still stands.

of course, if you and mitch are arguing that these skills are NOT extremely powerful and what really made the old ranger template work, then it's /facepalm time for me.

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Originally Posted by Edwards

People say that dshot is arguably worthy of elite status because it would probably still see play as an elite--not in this meta of course, but in a more balanced-friendly one.

Whereas if mending touch and nat stride were made elite, they would NEVER be brought into PvP EVER. Yes, they're powerful, but they're not elite-worthy.

Exactly, because, once again, we have things like Escape, Lightning Reflexes, Dismiss Condition, Ant Sig, Mend Ailment, etc.

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Originally Posted by arienrhode

Natty stride is one of the better non-elite skills but it's nowhere close to elite worthy. It's seriously terrible terrible as an anti-spike and protect skill stance compared to lightning reflexes, which is slightly broken stance imo. [/B]D-shot would only be elite worthy if it was unblockable, not to mention the ranger class would be worthless without it[/B]. How about making diversion an elite and seeing how well dom works?

-75% to block is like having both Nat Stride & Guardian on. It makes a lot of difference when someone's trying to pound away on you. Escape is affected by Exp, unlike Nat Stride, which is WS. Most Rangers will prioritize Exp & Marks over WS. Also, NS ends if you get hexed or enchanted, so if you get VoR thrown on you, you're screwed.

For pure speed? Just stick with Nat Stride.

-Thank God someone shares my views on D-Shot

-They'd just take VoR.

Tamuril elansar · Jan 16, 2009, 07:59 AM // 07:59

nerf on dshot would mean ranger will never see play again, except for the r/d's ofcourse.

Marxon Aurion · Jan 16, 2009, 08:29 AM // 08:29

This obviously depends on the weight of the nerf. I don't see any reason to nerf dshot though. Btw, Hi Tam, if I'm not mistaken.

Anyway, dshot is not the problem and will not be. The problem is as many said the DPS+spiking power. Aftercast for hunter's shot would be a nice idea, so you cannot squeeze 3 attacks in one spike. Also in terms of skill, dshot and savage under Read The Wind and Flail make mesmer interupts almost obsolete (except that a savage/dshot can be blocked and stuff), because if I'm not mistaken the interupts hit even faster than those of a mesmer.

makosi · Jan 16, 2009, 10:21 AM // 10:21

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Originally Posted by Tamuril elansar

nerf on dshot would mean ranger will never see play again, except for the r/d's ofcourse.

This indicates underlying bigger flaws of the profession as a whole. I don't like the common argument, "plz keep dshot cuz my ranga will b lonely," because two wrongs don't make a right. They needn't nerf Dshot in to the uncharted realm of Spawning Power skills but, instead, scale the disable with Expertise or increase the energy cost to 10 so that players can't throw Dshots around recklessly and get lucky interrupting the likes of Reversal of Fortune.

Then there's the argument that interrupts are essential to defend your team against threats and nuisances like Diversions, anti-melee hexes and even Crushing Blows. I agree but your warriors are still taking Distracting Strike, KDs, your ranger(s) has/have Savage or your dom mesmer bar has a combo of Pdrain, PBlock, Pleak, Cry.

Having an overpowered solution (Dshot) to overpowered problems (Palm Strike, Diversion etc.) is, once again, making the game more stale, predictable and mundane.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 16, 2009, 11:23 AM // 11:23

How did this thread turn into 'dshot is overpowered' without anyone from rawr posting?

rohara · Jan 16, 2009, 11:50 AM // 11:50

the turret ranger is problematic, but i think a nerf to RtW and/or adding an aftercast on +dmg bow attacks would take care of it adequately. i don't agree that rangers should be rendered incapable of doing damage - imo, the problem is with the rate at which they do damage.

i think the current big f'in problem is lingering curse, and to an extent, mark of insecurity. i think there should be hard anti-prots and anti-heals in the game, however, lingering curse has no business being AoE + ~30 sec duration + incredibly spammable. it makes for hex-and-forget degenerative play. no single skill should have the potential to make an entire team suffer so badly, for so long. this skill needs to be almost completely reworked.

i think MoI would be fine with just a nerf to the duration and/or spec - make it so you really have to spec to make it worthwhile, so that flag runners and whatnot can't go in minimally tri- or quad-specced (is that a word?) and be imbued with that kind of spike assist power along with an insane amount of defense and offense.

as a flagger, and probably the voice of a minority, i like the utility MoI brings to the table and would kinda hate to see it nerfed into non-use. having some moderate stance and enchant hate on a split (or defending against a split) without having to bring the entire midline along is nice, and in this meta and considering the current tiebreaker mechanic, almost necessary.

and while i'm at it...i think gvg is, once again, in desperate need of an overhaul. i don't enjoy a 28 minute stalemate OR a 28 minute "GG". 20-25 minutes would do it, jeez. tourneys, even 4 round ones, are painfully long. this tiebreaker mechanic is absolutely ridiculous...a team shouldn't be punished for defending their lord. that's kind of the whole freaking point of gvg: live lord = win, dead lord = lose. of course he should be protected. all this mechanic has led to is insane kamikaze rushes at 25 minutes, the outcome of which is often quite unjust. i don't want the old VoD back, because fortressway was not fun either - but this is the polar opposite of fortressway and is just as equally awful. something like basing the tiebreaker on match-wide morale, party health, and NPC health would make much more sense and be much more fair. if a team does everything right, ie. score more kills, get more boosts, protect the base, perhaps even score NPC kills - they should win fair and square. an important mechanic such as the tiebreaker shouldn't be an abusable mechanic, period.

ChopChop · Jan 16, 2009, 09:08 PM // 21:08

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Originally Posted by rohara

i think the current big f'in problem is lingering curse... i don't enjoy a 28 minute stalemate... painfully long.

So, on one hand you complain about a template (lingering) which cannot split, stall, heal, interrupt, spike, snare and has very little defense, its just a pressure gamble.
While in the same breath you complain that matches last too long.

This is the reason Anet gets nowhere with player input, people do not even know what they want them self, on one hand they do not want any skills which kills them, yet on the other hand they also do not want any builds which they can't kill.
Thus we are in a catch 22 situation, if you to be able to end matches before 28 minutes, and if you want to be able to pressure out the infamous 'rawr build', then solid pressure skills such as LC much exist in the game.
But if such skills do exist that also means they can be used to beat other teams who are not prepared for them, such as 'balanced builds', this then in turns lead to pretty much the entire Euro community desiring the skill to be nerfed, and we yet again return to a situation in which nothing can kill rawr build.

And then you think GvG needs an overhaul.
I am one of the people from rawr who have tried to give izzy (anet) the most input on the game and skill balance, what changes should be made to shorten matches, and I try my best to only call for nerfs to skills we (rawr) use, simple because we don't whine about skills being too powerful as long as they have a counter.

But you see the irony is, its the other people, who are 'honorable' who 'play balanced', that are keeping our play style alive, by depriving the game of pressure, they make it extremely easy to design builds which are hard to counter.

Here are some examples

Aegis nerf, argued for by me, argued against by others. (wanted more than what did happen)
Party healing nerf, argued for by rawr, argued against by others. (didn't happen)

BA buff, argued against by rawr, argued for by others. (did happen)
Caretakers buff, argued against by rawr, argued for by others (didn't happen).

The list goes on but most of the interesting stuff are about skills from previous metas and previous 'rawr builds' (which apparently is a term describing our current build.

Also this is the part where I generally point out that over 25 skills from 'rawr builds' have been nerfed, and yet people still complain, this to me only shows that the real problem is people do not understand what really affects the game.

But most importantly, I do not need to defend our play style, you do it for us

wilson · Jan 16, 2009, 10:03 PM // 22:03

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Originally Posted by ChopChop

awesome stuff

Call me whatever you want but reading your post is highly inspiring. There isn't many people left who have the knowledge to actually give valid arguments in their posts.

Thanks!

House Silvermoon · Jan 17, 2009, 04:50 AM // 04:50

i would agree a bit with chop chop because when things seem a little overpowered people seem to overreact and whine for nerfs. then everything in the game gets nerfed or smiter's booned by izzy and the same people complain again. maybe no one really understands or knows what gw should look and play like.

valence · Jan 17, 2009, 07:33 AM // 07:33

The OP pointed out the defense that can be taken into a single build is due the insane output of certain templates, most notable the turret ranger. LC is not the answer to turrets. I dont even see why it is brought up.

the 'euro' community is not asking an answer to insane templates, instead those templates should be fixed.

the moment ranged damage got their insane buffs through history, rawr templates, fortress templates or whatever they are called had their chance to exist. Note; during VoD those templates relied on VoD (and not their omega spike part till VoD dmg buff). It seems that these 2 builds are seen as 1 the same build while 1 build needs to compress 600dmg, the vod one around ¿480?.

If only L-Orb was the epitome of a spike skill <3

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jan 17, 2009, 08:48 AM // 08:48

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Originally Posted by ChopChop

So, on one hand you complain about a template (lingering) which cannot split, stall, heal, interrupt, spike, snare and has very little defense, its just a pressure gamble.

It's not really a pressure gamble, unless you play against a team with an insane amount of party healing and/or hex removal, it's pretty much garanteed pressure.

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While in the same breath you complain that matches last too long.

I think his complaint was more based around the length of ATs and tiebreaker play in general, which is less of an issue atm as most people seem to run brainless wipe builds.

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Thus we are in a catch 22 situation, if you to be able to end matches before 28 minutes, and if you want to be able to pressure out the infamous 'rawr build', then solid pressure skills such as LC much exist in the game.
But if such skills do exist that also means they can be used to beat other teams who are not prepared for them, such as 'balanced builds', this then in turns lead to pretty much the entire Euro community desiring the skill to be nerfed, and we yet again return to a situation in which nothing can kill rawr build.

You know as well as I do that buffing offense generally leads to people running more defensive builds, skills like Lingering Curse are not the way pressure should be and you're arguing under the assumption that 'rawr build' should stay as it is, if the damage compression on turret rangers and caretakers rits would get properly dealt with, I very much doubt 'rawr build' in it's current form would be that effective, you would have to devote more skill slots to offensive skills if you want to score kills 8v8, or resort to tiebreaker play, in the former example this would likely mean that the build would become more vulnerable to pressure.

But you see the irony is, its the other people, who are 'honorable' who 'play balanced', that are keeping our play style alive, by depriving the game of pressure, they make it extremely easy to design builds which are hard to counter.

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Party healing nerf, argued for by rawr, argued against by others. (didn't happen)

Uhmm? The only party healing discussion I recall since after LoD got nerfed was the motivation paragon, which if I'm not mistaken was argued AGAINST by rawr.

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BA buff, argued against by rawr, argued for by others. (did happen)

No one argued FOR this.

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Caretakers buff, argued against by rawr, argued for by others (didn't happen).

The only time this skill was even brought up IIRC was a complete rework, reducing the damage to mindblast like levels (tbh, I don't even think Caretaker's is problematic, Ancestor's Rage is).

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The list goes on but most of the interesting stuff are about skills from previous metas and previous 'rawr builds' (which apparently is a term describing our current build.

VoD and post-VoD can't really be compared static defense was really good back then cause it was very easy to stall till VoD and force an 8v8 encounter by running flags with warriors etc.

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Also this is the part where I generally point out that over 25 skills from 'rawr builds' have been nerfed, and yet people still complain, this to me only shows that the real problem is people do not understand what really affects the game.

And other skills which the current 'rawr build' uses have been buffed, when Izzy decides to pull a bunch of random elite buffs out of his ass every few months it's kinda hard to work on game balance, even in the long run.

You defending skills like Lingering Curse and Mark of Insecurity (which no one in their right mind would argue aren't overpowered) is almost as laughable as observing you play hammer warrior.

Forgotton200 · Jan 17, 2009, 09:32 AM // 09:32

ChopChop · Jan 17, 2009, 11:03 AM // 11:03

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