Curse

delnaci · Mar 16, 2009, 06:05 AM // 06:05

How liable are they?

I keep seeing discussions about how they're useless and only good for PvE anymore.

I have been playing as a Paragon main, and I'm a bit discouraged right now..

Wish Swiftdeath · Mar 16, 2009, 06:12 AM // 06:12

You can roll a PvP char so it doesn't really matter.

Paragons also take very little skill so there's lots of time to learn another prof for pvp

subarucar · Mar 16, 2009, 06:52 AM // 06:52

Paragons are generally useless in PvP, Arenas dont allow them to make use of their shouts, in GvG and HA, Monks heal better, Rits support better, Wars & rangers damage better.
Generally anything a para is good for, another prof can do better, or it gets nerfed.
The only decent use i could think of would be for speed buffers in AB, using ["Incoming"] and ["Fall Back"]

Note the descrip for "Incoming" is outdated

Icy The Mage · Mar 16, 2009, 06:57 AM // 06:57

The bonus from leadership is really nullified in PvP, where you don't have as many people with you; The best way (imho) to currently play a paragon is through PvE-only skills, which cannot be (for obvious reasons) used in PvP. The spear is an okay weapon, but tbh, Dervishes, Assassins, Rangers and even Ritualists use it a lot more proficiently than a paragon.

Luminarus · Mar 16, 2009, 07:11 AM // 07:11

I dunno, I dont think they are that bad, its just that currently there are better options. The turret ranger outdamages them too much. If the turret concept itself gets nerfed into oblivion which will be hard, then MAYBE we will start to see them in gvg, again however the rangers ability to split makes it even more likely.

The main thing, is that most of the midline slots are taken up by the recently buffed OP skills, or just op concepts (Lingering Curse, Smite Monks, B-Surge, Fast Cast Water etc) such that the paragon is useless. They need some serious buffs to bring them inline with the powercreep. However, its difficult to do due to the inherent overpowerdness of shouts. Either too strong, or too weak.

Snow Bunny · Mar 16, 2009, 07:21 AM // 07:21

They were nerfed to a large extent.

IcyFiftyFive is wrong. Their Leadership attribute is no weaker in PvP than it is in PvE.

The problem is that they used that attribute, by spamming [go for the eyes!] and [watch yourself!] to power stuff like [song of restoration], [shields up!], [defensive anthem] and lots of spike attacks, like [vicious attack] and [spear of lightning].

They were used to create levels of defense that were a total slut to crack. Since you can't remove shouts, it was imbalanced.

Anet actually did something right and nerfed problematic skills instead of the attribute.

Ranged sword DPS with a high spike and unremovable party buffs, not to mention a permanent IAS ([aggressive refrain]?), recipe for terrible PvP imbalance.

Enjoy PvEing with the paragon, get better at something else for PvP though. Paragons don't see any PvP play currently, or at least not seriously.

Ben-A-BoO · Mar 16, 2009, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Well since the latest nerf to the BA-Turret ranger we do see some Paragon's getting play in GvG currently.

One of the main reasons is that Aegis made a comeback since the slight stance nerfs and new caster heavy midlines. Paragon builds have at least one utility spot that can be filled with [[mirror of disenchantment] (Leadership makes up for it in 8vs8 or 7vs7 situations).

Current builds I have seen so far (and variants of those) are based on the following templates (without runes ... usually 14 spear ~ 10 Command ~ 10 Leadership):

[build=OQWjUymJaOBZLMEuoKhD/ubBA]
Buffing an [[incendiary arrows] ranger with poison spread and [[rotting flesh] from a LC/FF Necro for AoE condition pressure and a ~ 20 sec cracked armor;

[build=OQWjUymJaOM4gsFuoSirwubBAA]
For Deep Wound Spam and extra KD Defense on the Prot Monk;

[build=OQWkIMlsZimTQ2CDhLqXAbc7WAA]
For Turret damage and good spike support with utility interrupt and Aegis control.

We'll see how long Paragons last in this meta... Since they are generally a broken class (as stated by Snow bunny here and many others before) with relatively few skills they are usually OP or worthless. Enjoy showing of your awesome Para FoW while the meta still allows you to...

gl & hf

Loki Seiguro · Mar 16, 2009, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Paragons are usually used in ranger spike. Just wiki the build. Other then that you can use paraspike which is quite difficult to play for some people as you have to keep chant and shouts up while spiking correctly.

As for your question: I woun't make a pve paragon just to pvp with as it isn't worth it.

Asplode · Mar 16, 2009, 06:00 PM // 18:00

How liable? Do you mean viable?

I mean, in terms of liability, they are fairly liable to taking tons of damage seeing as how the use of [aggressive refrain] results in a near-permanent cracked armor state, plus their stationary mode of damage makes them a rather big liability for sapping away your monk's energy.

As for viability, Paragons, along with the other three expansion classes are relegated to very niche applications, spending much of their GvG existence as a [defensive anthem] character with utility such as [power spike], [mirror of disenchantment], [rigor mortis] or so far as [shatter storm] or [expel hexes] in order to make them worth bringing.
However, even that is quite rare.
As for secondaries, there's the ["Go for the eyes!"] and ["Find their weakness!"] application on R/P's for 'pure' spike builds, and the A/P spike using [vicious attack] for ranged deep-wound.

As for HA, the most popular Paragon skill would be on secondaries; things such as ["Make Haste!"] and [song of concentration]; haven't really seen many paragons since Paraspike or Neo-IWAY died off, to be frank.
But then again I haven't HA'ed in months.

God_Hand · Mar 16, 2009, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Ahh... Paragons. My advice pertaining to the profession of Paragon is as follows:

I'll just sum up my post in saying that Paragons should never be used too seriously. The role they play is typically done better by one of the other professions. The Paragon's shouts & spear attacks both typically work better as a secondary profession. If you want to read more of my thoughts in depth, go on.

Round 1: You VS Wall Of Text... Ready... FIGHT!

First off, if you're trying to do damage with your spear, you basically NEED an IAS. Spear damage without an IAS is basically worthless. Unfortunately, your options on a Para are limited to Aggressive Refrain, which I've always found very awkward to work with, plus the Cracked Armor, and Soldier's Fury, which requires you to bring something along the lines of "Can't Touch This!", and it's an elite.

Unforunately, these are the only options available to a Paragon. So let's look into an IAS that might be a little better, huh? Unfortunately, your best bet is probably Frenzy, as Flail took a huge secondary nerf. Other than that, you might as well just go Paragon secondary.

Warrior/Paragon - Benefits from Flail, Strength, Lion's Comfort for adrenaline, and additional Armor

Ranger/Paragon - Benefits from Expertise, stances such as Natural Stride and Tiger's Fury, and the self-heal Troll Unguent

Assassin/Paragon - Benefits from Critical Strikes

Ritualist/Paragon - Benefits from Weapon of Aggression & Spirit's Strength

Now, about the Paragon's support capabliities. They're a support class, but IMO they support in very awkward, ineffective, or uncommon ways. Let's look at each line of attributes:

Command: Moderately useful. "Make Haste" is useful on NPC's that need to get somewhere quickly. "Never Surrender" can be used as a mini-heal when things get dicey. "Fall Back" and "Incoming" serve to increase your party's movement speed, and heal everyone as you move. "Go For the Eyes" increases everyone's crit chance on their next attack. "Find Their Weakness" lets an ally Deep Wound on their next critical.

Decent skills, but I can't help but feel that most of the skills are used primarily for NPC or Party movement. As far as healing goes, a Monk or Ritualist fares better. As far as damage increase, it's not that noticeable.

Leadership: If you're not using leadership skills, or the attribute itself, switch to secondary. It doesn't really offer THAT much energy. Leadership skills aren't too great. Noticeable mentions are Soldier's Fury, an IAS, Aggressive Refrain, another IAS, Focused Anger, which increases adrenaline gain by 0...120...160%, and Anthem of Flame, which causes burning on each party member's next attack skill.

I'd say the most noticeable skill in this line is Focused Anger. It's not a stance, so combining it with an IAS can let you crank out Blazing Spears and such pretty fast. Leadership also contains a self heal, Leader's Comfort, which in my opinion takes too long to cast, recharges too slow, and doesn't heal that much (140 maximum, you gain more health the more allies you are near)

Motivation: Of all the attribute lines on every profession in the game, this is the one you simply DO NOT put points into. Motivation sucks. It's main focus is healing, energy gain, and condition removal. It does this mainly through the use of chants that not only require each party member to undertake all-too-specific of an action to activate (use a Signet, use a Shout, use a Spell), but they all are either adrenaline fueled and worthless, or energy with an extremely long recharge time.

Stay away.

All this can be boiled down into this sentence. I can see what ANet was going for, but right now Paragons simply cannot execute due to a lack of blocking, lack of self-heal, lack of energy management on a split, requirements to delve into a secondary to find a workable IAS, and a completely useless attribute line. Garbage, your name is Motivation.

And Paragons? Your name is AB.

Reverend Dr · Mar 17, 2009, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Motivation is not as useless as people think it is. It just requires a far heavier investment than most teams are willing to make. But combine that with the inability for paragons to function well on a split, the reliance on higher numbers, and reliance on chain chants and motivation is just ill suited for anything outside of a para heavy HA build.

Bobby2 · Mar 17, 2009, 01:16 AM // 01:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

And Paragons? Your name is AB.

So I heard being able to split is a big deal in AB

Cirian · Mar 17, 2009, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Similar stories from me. I'm going to take the casual PvP angle, CM's - Jade Quarry and Fort Aspenwood. I'll make a brief mention of RA too, why not.

The big problem for PvP paragons is that CM's revolve around killing or saving NPC's, and possibly supporting a few (say 1-3) other party members in a skirmish, usually quite spread out. I've tried two routes with the Paragon in these PvP formats - damage, or support. In each case I will add a disclaimer... I was really having to scrape the bottom of the barrel to get something half decent out of the poor guys! So, apologies in advance.

On the support front, lets say you want to be a healer. All Motivation healing chants are party members only - they don't work on NPC's, so all you have is Signet of Synergy. That's IT!

Having said that, you can make a somewhat average (but heavily armoured) healer out of a P/Mo if you run signet heavy and use high/low energy sets and a 40/40 set with Word of Healing. With a Spear of Enchanting and a Motivation shield with +10 vs Earth, you can capture the true whammo spirit in Fort Aspenwood like so:

Whammagon - P/Mo

14 Motivation, 12 Healing Prayers

[skill]Word of Healing[/skill][skill]Signet of Rejuvenation[/skill][skill]Signet of Synergy[/skill][skill]Remedy Signet[/skill][skill]Purge Signet[/skill][skill]Spotless Soul[/skill][skill]Spotless Mind[/skill][skill]Cure Hex[/skill]

Yes, the "Paragon of Dwayna" is a hideous gimmick and wrong on so many levels, but it does the job surprisingly well in low areas like FA and RA. Half a bar of signets offer some immunity to usual shut-down methods, and when it comes to the crunch you just can't go wrong with a purge signet and a low energy set. Word is a beast, and you have 2 free signet heals. 2 pips of energy regen and the occasional dip into a 40/40 caster or high energy set really is all you need. It's not as good as a real monk, but it does the job and it's quite a tough punchbag; you can easily have 96/101AL vs everything. The funniest thing is standing next to casters with caster spear/shield sets, while also wielding your own caster spear/shield set as an actual Paragon. The irony is exquisite

Ok, moving quickly, very quickly on... damage.

Bottom line on damage - you need an IAS, period. The best two I could get my mittens on were Frenzy and Tiger's Fury.

Brave Paragon - P/W

14 Spear... Tactics/Command as desired.

[skill]Frenzy[/skill] + attack skills. Contemplate [skill]Healing Signet[/skill], [skill]Sprint[/skill], maybe [skill]Remedy Signet[/skill]. Think brave, I'm sure it'll be fiiiiiiine.

Maybe this could somehow work higher up, but in the lower areas er, no.

Pack Hunter - P/R

13 Spear, 12 Beast, 10 Motivation, 2 Leadership (for +1 return on pet shouts, should you take one

)

[skill]Tiger's Fury[/skill][skill]Blazing Spear[/skill][skill]Scavenger Strike[/skill][skill]Barbed Spear[/skill][skill]Charm Animal[/skill][skill]Run as One[/skill][skill]Signet of Synergy[/skill][skill]Heal as One[/skill]

At least in FA, this one kinda works. Scavenger Strike will fuel Tigers pretty much on its own, Barbed Spear is super spammy, Blazing can be any attack skill - Maiming is ok for cripple spam, and of course you have a speed boost as well as an IAS. You can sig your pet, which is neat because it heals both of you like your elite does. The raw DPS is you're ever allowed to really open up is around the 55 mark, but lets face it... a turret ranger is so far ahead in terms of range and utility, this sort of thing is really just for the sake of playing a Paragon.

TL;DR

It helps to be a masochist. Good Luck!

MasterSasori · Mar 17, 2009, 07:15 PM // 19:15

I use this in RA:

[awe][blazing spear]["go for the eyes"][shock]["can't touch this"][soldier's fury]["conjure lightning"]["resurrection signet"].

You can try using [swift javelin], [spear swipe], [merciless spear], [spear of redemption], ["fall back"].

It works well in AB, RA, FA.

Yes, I know there is no heal. You better be good.

Ex Death · Mar 17, 2009, 11:16 PM // 23:16

The power is yours is actually a pretty strong template because I'm fairly sure it works successfully with mending refrain which provides extremely powerful party defense while not giving up utility and damage. You can also fit in mirror and either spear of lightning + harrier's toss or spear of lightning + a mesmer interupt. This is the only paragon template in existence which provides a good balance of offense, utlity and defense. If lingering curse and smiters ever got nerfed I would possibly even consider running one of these.

Rhamia Darigaz · Mar 18, 2009, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

I use this in RA:

[awe][blazing spear]["go for the eyes"][shock]["can't touch this"][soldier's fury]["conjure lightning"]["resurrection signet"].

You can try using [swift javelin], [spear swipe], [merciless spear], [spear of redemption], ["fall back"].

It works well in AB, RA, FA.

Yes, I know there is no heal. You better be good.

omg SHOCK AND AWE.
the synergy... it is overwhelming.

tigros · Mar 19, 2009, 03:53 PM // 15:53

[Spear of Lightning][Vicious Attack][Go For the Eyes][Never Surrender]["Fall Back!"][It's Just a Flesh Wound!][Brace Yourself!][Resurrection Signet]

(used to have Flail before nerf) - is still lacking an IAS right now, but it's pretty good midline damage & support.

Bobby2 · Mar 19, 2009, 06:15 PM // 18:15

I'll throw mine into the mix as well

[go for the [email protected]][holy [email protected]][blazing [email protected]][merciless [email protected]][soldier's [email protected]][stand your [email protected]][fall [email protected]][lead the [email protected]]

Don't be lured by the False God that is [can't touch this], it sucks on so many levels...

Tamuril elansar · Mar 19, 2009, 07:20 PM // 19:20

don't think this thread was supposed for bad RA/FA/AB builds.

God_Hand · Mar 20, 2009, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

Whammagon - P/Mo

14 Motivation, 12 Healing Prayers

[skill]Word of Healing[/skill][skill]Signet of Rejuvenation[/skill][skill]Signet of Synergy[/skill][skill]Remedy Signet[/skill][skill]Purge Signet[/skill][skill]Spotless Soul[/skill][skill]Spotless Mind[/skill][skill]Cure Hex[/skill]

What the hell...?