Curse

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 19, 2009, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dronte

The point of my post was: before the PR buff noone had a real problem with WE. PR buff had come with QQ-s about it, it got nerfed. Then the problem is WE. If it gets nerfed ppl gonna find another useful warrior elite (like evisc, then later cleave when its smashed) and want it to be nerfed.

It's actually been bitched about much more than PR. Yet the skill still lives.
back in Oct 08

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ce#post4323750

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...rs+endur ance

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...rs+endur ance

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...rs+endur ance

Edwards · Mar 19, 2009, 08:13 PM // 20:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dronte

The point of my post was: before the PR buff noone had a real problem with WE. PR buff had come with QQ-s about it, it got nerfed. Then the problem is WE. If it gets nerfed ppl gonna find another useful warrior elite (like evisc, then later cleave when its smashed) and want it to be nerfed.
You dont have to spam bulls nor shock/dash btw, I really think power attack is a simple problem. Bit less dmg or longer recharge and we are fine. Dont have to ruin a good elite skill.

People were complaining about WE before PR was buffed.

zling · Mar 19, 2009, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dronte

The point of my post was: before the PR buff noone had a real problem with WE. PR buff had come with QQ-s about it, it got nerfed. Then the problem is WE. If it gets nerfed ppl gonna find another useful warrior elite (like evisc, then later cleave when its smashed) and want it to be nerfed.
You dont have to spam bulls nor shock/dash btw, I really think power attack is a simple problem. Bit less dmg or longer recharge and we are fine. Dont have to ruin a good elite skill.

[warrior's endurance] has nothing to do with [primal rage]... and as I said in my previous post you're just plain wrong, it seems like you weren't kidding so see the 2nd option

P.S the "If it gets nerfed ppl gonna find another useful warrior elite (like evisc, then later cleave when its smashed) and want it to be nerfed." is what everyone here calls "power creep" nothing will change that as long as Izzy continues over buffing random elites than giving them a massive nerfbat into unusefuldom a few months later. not much we can do about it besides hoping he will finally change his wrongful ways before GW2 comes out

Master Fuhon · Mar 19, 2009, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

"That's probably why you see Charge/Incoming on flaggers."
hmmm, what? are we playing the same game?

I’ll give you that point even though you don’t really get any points in what you said (simplistically comparing Frenzy + Rush to PR again, pretending that Rush is an on demand skill and that having IMS/IAS up at once doesn’t still stack better with SoH/Judge’s Insight). It’s not fair for me to imply something is a build just because it’s being played around with, even though I meant that’s how people are attempting to apply theory. There’s no determination that theoretical skill functions will work effectively in practice. If I called something a flagger, I would be jumping ahead at what Foul Feast, Peace and Harmony, and builds that don’t split as well into 1v1 matchups are dealt with by. For now, it is a flagger with snare meta. The team speed boost flagger and spike assist only flaggers that people are running have yet to prove that they surpass this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

and how exactly is power creep a good thing? it forces people to use certain skills because they're just too good to be without. if we actually get a "true balance" which we won't, hopes up for GW2 but I doubt it will happen even there, than power creep will serve no purpose at all. until than it's what we have, whether we like it or not

That isn't power creep, it's something else (look up the word before arguing about it). Anyone else could tell you that the major reason why one skill is better than another is that there is a methodical practice of buffing one skill into use followed by the severe reduction of that skills usage. This is probably done, because there is only a small number of independent minded skill testers who are able to both reason for themselves and demonstrate how useful certain skills are. However, there is a second group of independent minded players who fundamentally disagree with this being done; we just want skills attempted to be equalized as close as possible so we can play what we want to whenever we want to, not waiting for the monthly skill balance that puts such underused skills into effectiveness.

Greedy Gus · Mar 19, 2009, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Wow, just type the skill name instead of inserting the wiki mouseover. It's unreadable when trying to scan less important posts.

zling · Mar 21, 2009, 02:10 AM // 02:10

I didnt say PR wasnt good, nor that Frenzy+Rush combo=PR, all I said was that the effect of Frenzy+Rush is SIMILAR to the effect of PR, of course it's less effective, as PR is an elite. my point was that WE is a lot worse than PR pre nerf and especially post nerf.

and last time I checked, when people talk about power creep they reffer to the constant uber buffs followed by massive nerf bats of random skills. I dont know, it's just what everyone reffers to when talking about it :\

Master Fuhon · Mar 21, 2009, 03:35 AM // 03:35

This is how increase attack speed scales:
-50% AS = 10 attacks in 20 seconds
-25% AS = 12 attacks in 20 seconds
1.33 second attack = 15 attacks in 20 seconds
+25% AS = 20 attacks in 20 seconds
+50% AS = 30 attacks in 20 seconds

I don’t have math on how kiting scales, but I went out to the Isle of the Nameless and chased the Master of Survival with the skills that start on the premade warrior pvp character. With no speed boost up, I couldn’t catch her to hit unless she stopped.
With charge up 33% speed boosts, I could count to something close to 2 seconds in my head (I have no stopwatch around me).

So, the simple act of kiting a warrior with a 33% speed boost up slows his attack rate to something roughly close to -50%. That’s 5 less attacks in 20 seconds, by running away from something that is faster than you.

New rough estimates
Hitting stationary = 15 attacks in 20 seconds
+33% IMS chasing +0% IMS = 10 attacks in 20 seconds
Equal chasing speed given head start = 0 attacks in 20 seconds

Look at that progression curve, something running away from you at the same speed as you are running towards it is INVINCIBLE when it starts running before you get to it.

Now let’s combine this crappy math with both equations at the same time, so you understand that PR is different from Rush/Frenzy switching. These are not the exact numbers as PR because I haven’t put that much effort into these tests.

Hitting stationary = 20 attacks in 20 seconds
+25% IAS/33%IMS chasing 0% = 12 attacks in 20 seconds
+25% IAS/0% IMS chasing 0% = 0 attacks in 20 seconds

What does this prove? If you didn’t snare or knockdown that target so that the warrior could get to it without IMS, the warrior will generate no damage; even with a theoretically broken IAS in the game. But this has become a fundamental part of warrior play; the days of random arenas full of runners are not there to teach these lessons. This is why a warrior has crutched on Bulls and Shock for so long.

What did the math show that PR could do? The best you could have hoped for pre PR was +33% IMS to earn 10 attacks in 20 seconds on a kiting character. Afterwards, you can see that with +25%IAS/+33%IMS (not exact PR figures) you would have gotten 12 attacks in 20 seconds. Understand that I am calling these attacks, when these are 50+ damage criticals that warriors could have never gotten. And each time you make the simple act of catching up to something to Bulls or Shock, you jump to 20 attacks in 20 seconds, so it helps to be able to use that run stance as a bit more than a cancel.

Jatt · Mar 21, 2009, 04:32 AM // 04:32

How did you get so smart Master Fuhon? did you get a degree in debate from Harvard? i really need to know.

dusanyu · Mar 21, 2009, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asplode

Take the flaming back to QQ if you will, Mitch.

Anyway, more to the point: even if it were a stance with a speedboost, you essentially work to free up a skill slot by overwriting your run stance with it, which in turn ends up functioning as a buff.
Theoretically this would mean that you'd barely be able to maintain protstrike + power attack on recharge, but let's be realistic here: you cannot practically use those skills on recharge to begin with, anyway, so it's a very minor loss in exchange for an open skill slot.

Is it just me or has the general attitude of the pvp community made an obnoxious shift from "How can we change our strategy and general approach to GvG in order to win?" to "How can we try and change the game to suit our desires?"
It's hardly productive, rarely ever well thought out, and inevitably ends in a clash of opinions which cannot be resolved anyway.

Yeay some one Backs up what i was trying to day Thank you asp!

Master Fuhon · Mar 21, 2009, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jatt

How did you get so smart Master Fuhon? did you get a degree in debate from Harvard? i really need to know.

Skills are developed by those who know how skills are developed. One person has a clear path; he walks forward never knowing what else there could be. Another person has an obstruction in the way; he needs to develop an adaptation just to walk the same path.

Ivy League education and college structure do this for people who are not able to do it for themselves. If you are given the clear path, you need someone to add the obstructions. If you are given the obstructions, someone placing more obstructions on your path will cause your development to skyrocket if they aren’t designed to break you. Some obstacles are designed to produce failure, because an adaptation to failure itself has to be made in order to succeed.

Ivy League schools and debate teams are not necessary parts of anything that exists. Not knowing what I’m going to be when I grow up means I go to a state university instead. Also, don’t look to me to learn techniques of debate because I spend the time trying to find actual answers: both wrong and right ones. My style is at least ancient Greek in origin; walk into town and argue. Back then it supplemented what was taught at the university.

zling · Mar 21, 2009, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

This is how increase attack speed scales:
-50% AS = 10 attacks in 20 seconds
-25% AS = 12 attacks in 20 seconds
1.33 second attack = 15 attacks in 20 seconds
+25% AS = 20 attacks in 20 seconds
+50% AS = 30 attacks in 20 seconds

I don’t have math on how kiting scales, but I went out to the Isle of the Nameless and chased the Master of Survival with the skills that start on the premade warrior pvp character. With no speed boost up, I couldn’t catch her to hit unless she stopped.
With charge up 33% speed boosts, I could count to something close to 2 seconds in my head (I have no stopwatch around me).

So, the simple act of kiting a warrior with a 33% speed boost up slows his attack rate to something roughly close to -50%. That’s 5 less attacks in 20 seconds, by running away from something that is faster than you.

New rough estimates
Hitting stationary = 15 attacks in 20 seconds
+33% IMS chasing +0% IMS = 10 attacks in 20 seconds
Equal chasing speed given head start = 0 attacks in 20 seconds

Look at that progression curve, something running away from you at the same speed as you are running towards it is INVINCIBLE when it starts running before you get to it.

Now let’s combine this crappy math with both equations at the same time, so you understand that PR is different from Rush/Frenzy switching. These are not the exact numbers as PR because I haven’t put that much effort into these tests.

Hitting stationary = 20 attacks in 20 seconds
+25% IAS/33%IMS chasing 0% = 12 attacks in 20 seconds
+25% IAS/0% IMS chasing 0% = 0 attacks in 20 seconds

What does this prove? If you didn’t snare or knockdown that target so that the warrior could get to it without IMS, the warrior will generate no damage; even with a theoretically broken IAS in the game. But this has become a fundamental part of warrior play; the days of random arenas full of runners are not there to teach these lessons. This is why a warrior has crutched on Bulls and Shock for so long.

What did the math show that PR could do? The best you could have hoped for pre PR was +33% IMS to earn 10 attacks in 20 seconds on a kiting character. Afterwards, you can see that with +25%IAS/+33%IMS (not exact PR figures) you would have gotten 12 attacks in 20 seconds. Understand that I am calling these attacks, when these are 50+ damage criticals that warriors could have never gotten. And each time you make the simple act of catching up to something to Bulls or Shock, you jump to 20 attacks in 20 seconds, so it helps to be able to use that run stance as a bit more than a cancel.

congratulations, you've just proven how broken [primal rage] was and still is(even though it's underused ever since the *slight* nerf).

however, ask yourself this: what did Warriors do before that absurd [primal rage] buff? that's right, [frenzy]+[rush]! did they kill? of course! so, what does that tell you? that Warriors can still kill even without the ridiculous [primal rage] it just takes more skill to do it, from the entire team not just the Warriors... I heard knock downs, snares and positioning are Imba!

I Jonas I · Mar 21, 2009, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jatt

How did you get so smart Master Fuhon? did you get a degree in debate from Harvard? i really need to know.

hahaha

(12 characters)

NoXiFy · Mar 26, 2009, 04:53 PM // 16:53

DRAMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Ok, WE is imba. That is all, leave it at rest; not like anet will nerf it anyway. Helps bad guilds get top 500 if their caller has a mic.

Killed u man · Mar 26, 2009, 05:04 PM // 17:04

And I stick by it:

[Warrior's Endurance], [Frenzy] + [Rush] > [Primal Rage] ever was...

On the case now:

WE is overpowered, and should be nerfed. Playing my crazy warrior is quite fun tough, there is nothing better than spamming [Golden Fox Strike], [Golden Fang Strike] and [Death Blossom] on recharge, escp when you're killing every second combo orso ^^

Changing it back to stances makes it useless tough. Simply recuding the energy gain to 2, and not having 100% uptime could scale it into "balancedness" really.
Start with 90% uptime, and keep scaling it downwars untill it reaches a state of equilibirum, I don't see what the balance team doesn't get that?...

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 26, 2009, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Changing it back to stances makes it useless tough. Simply recuding the energy gain to 2, and not having 100% uptime could scale it into "balancedness" really.
Start with 90% uptime, and keep scaling it downwars untill it reaches a state of equilibirum, I don't see what the balance team doesn't get that?...

In my eyes the skill at it's current power belongs back as a stance filling niche builds, just like steady stance did, although they killed that one off too. Could play around with the numbers like you've stated but doubt the balance team can achieve anything like they have in the past right....

Snow Bunny · Mar 26, 2009, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

S
Ivy League education and college structure do this for people who are not able to do it for themselves.

Or you weren't able to get into them yourself.

Also,

Killed u man. PR was always better than WE

Master Fuhon · Mar 26, 2009, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Or you weren't able to get into them yourself.

The quote you pulled out was really meant to be understood under context. I'm bitter that undergraduate education has the status of a high school diploma, and a quality education is overpriced and unaccessible compared to how it was when college first came out. I took the free ride, and I mentioned my reasoning in my post.

Ivy Leagues are trending towards pass/fail, I believe for the reason that money is playing a bigger issue in everything right now. From what I understand, they still offer high quality graduate programs. Everyone I was taught by in college went to unrecognized undergrad programs, and finished their Masters/PhD at a well known school.

The exact context of my quote was that 17 year olds often won't know how to educate themselves. People who get educations don't even realize the processes they use to learn (socratic method, etc). I gave him the typical answer based on the assumption that only Ivy Leagues produce quality. It's designed to irritate Ivy Leagers, but it doesn't warrant back-and-forth argument.

dies like fish · Mar 26, 2009, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Inaccessible

Master Fuhon · Mar 26, 2009, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by dies like fish

Inaccessible

That's a really lame attempt to insert an "I" into a conversation being had with another "U". But grammatically correct.