Curse

Neo-LD · Mar 17, 2009, 10:01 PM // 22:01

For what its worth Mitch, I've been having fun since I started playing again about a week ago, even though I was one of the loudest reward-player-skill ideologues in the community, back in the day. Lingering, PnH, and WE absolutely represent power creep, but overall it seems like they have cancelled eachother out to form a rather enjoyable metagame. From a monk's perspective, at least

Btw Hi Nel, whats up?

Still Number One · Mar 17, 2009, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Btw Hi Nel, whats up?

not much, nice to hear you're playing again.

Master Fuhon · Mar 17, 2009, 10:17 PM // 22:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

there is only so much you can teach yourself in this game.

Your post had some good points, but I'm going to elaborate on this point because I think it's the most important one. Everyone playing the same build is the end-game scenario, meaning dead game scenario. At that point everyone is a mirror image of you and you can't get better. In fact, you get worse because the mind decays when you can't learn new tricks.

People are different inside in many ways, yet the skills are oriented for them to all become crappy clones, barring a skill rebalance that is able to produce a non-clone for an extended duration. If you met another person like yourself and had to spend hundreds of hours with that person; if you had any semblance of sanity you would be bored by that person because you have already spent a lifetime experiencing the exact same things the same way. You would be entertained for a small time based on first discovery, just as looking in a mirror is entertaining to those without developed brains (babies and lesser animals). But after a certain point, you recognize that the thing you are looking at can only do the same things that you can. So you leave and look for a mirror image that does things that you cannot do.

When every build is the same; every match starts to play the same; every opponent grows towards being the same; every question is the same; every conversation is the same. For that reason, we don't need to play mirror image fantasies because we have documentable proof that it is not an enduring life strategy, and it would be failed game design as well. Look up story of narcissus if you need to know how it turns out; the only reason he persists in being fascinated is because the guy fails to be able to recognize that he is staring at himself. The ways it can persist in a game is when people are capable of playing the same build differently, or dumb enough to not realize it is the same. Otherwise, they will complain or leave with good justification.

scruffy · Mar 17, 2009, 10:29 PM // 22:29

i dont mind lingering curse, foul feast makes for an annoying meta though

Ex Death · Mar 17, 2009, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Even though the argument of newly buffed skills opening new opportunities and less staleness still stands, it restricts options just as much as it creates them. The buff to lingering curse clearly shows this, as not only is it a required necessity for any pressure build to function it has also meant that bsurge templates are pretty much obsolete at the moment.

New changes to skills are always exciting for the first few weeks no matter what but staleness will inevitably emerge after a couple of months unless even more changes are made no less than a month after a previous set of skill changes. If this were the case, the game would, without a doubt, be extremely fun regardless of what/how skills are changed, but would almost certainly not fit in with what most people's definition of 'balance' is.

So in conclusion people will always moan about the state of the game because, under hypothetical circumstances, if the game is balanced, it will most probably be stale and not fun after a few months, whereas if the game is fun with lots of different skill changes, the game will most probably not be balanced. It is for this reason that I don't give a shit about how game balance turns out in the end because guild wars will still be more fun than any other online game no matter how badly my personal opinion differs to the results of the skill balance.

Snow Bunny · Mar 17, 2009, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

And for that we've had to endure Incendiary Arrows,

Meh. Not going to lie, I thought that the nerf to that killed pressure builds.

If we have [incendiary arrows] today I actually think we'd have a more varied meta.

Trust me, you're never going to get this balance that everyone appears to idolize.

If you do, the meta will be stale. Unless you completely balance all the warrior elites, all the monk elites, and make necro/mes/ele/ranger elites all perfectly viable, you're going to have a very stale meta. Power creep has something to do with it, but sometimes I think some of the nerfs were in the wrong direction.

I agree that WE needs a nerf, but it should have been nerfed with PR. PR made playing warrior FUN, despite how imbalanced it was. IA for rangers was a really fun build to play, and during that period the game saw a serious rise in pressure builds, notably condition pressure - which is a really good thing. IA could have been nerfed less harshly - as it stands now, it's dead.

As much as Kaon dreams of the days when byob was viable for high-end play, you won't get that, unless you nerf a lot of shit. You'd even have to nerf skills considered balanced these days, like MSmash.

I actually sort of agree with Vanquisher here - the removal of VoD in some ways made spike better. Proactive splitting was important in the VoD days because killing off an archer or two meant enemy firepower at VoD was significantly less. Now a proactive split to your base has very little threat. Unless it's a full on gank, you can reactively split a bit of offense to either force them out or pressure their lord as well.

A buff to [melandru's arrows], [quivering blade], [rotting flesh], [incendiary arrows], and some self-preservation split skills, like [mystic regeneration] or [natural healing], along with a general, yet moderate buff to traps in general would promote more varied builds. I don't want a huge buff to all of them, especially considering QB was buffed fairly recently, but a buff enough to make them viable close to the same level as the old staple skills. Coupled with a nerf to PwK, Recuperation, and Warrior's Endurance, and you might have a much more enjoyable (and varied) meta.

I almost always agree with the nerfs necessary for balance. But sometimes, you nerf too much and the game becomes stale. I know that you can 'whoru' me Mitch, and put me in my place, but just consider the fact that certain skills, like IA, occasionally need to be kept a bit stronger to promote different playstyles.

I Jonas I · Mar 17, 2009, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Meh. Not going to lie, I thought that the nerf to that killed pressure builds.

If we have [incendiary arrows] today I actually think we'd have a more varied meta.

Although not as bad as the pew-pew rangers, IA rangers dumbed down the skill needed to play ranger just like WE and PR dumbed down the skill needed to play warrior. I'm glad they nerfed IA so it no longer sees play.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Mar 17, 2009, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

If we have [incendiary arrows] today I actually think we'd have a more varied meta.

You mean people would be running the exact same builds except a lot of people would probably run an IA ranger instead of a Mel Shot one?

Quote:

Trust me, you're never going to get this balance that everyone appears to idolize.

If you do, the meta will be stale. Unless you completely balance all the warrior elites, all the monk elites, and make necro/mes/ele/ranger elites all perfectly viable, you're going to have a very stale meta. Power creep has something to do with it, but sometimes I think some of the nerfs were in the wrong direction.

The game has been quite close to this balance several times, most recently after VoD was removed, the first elite buff update had some strong elites but most of them could be worked around.

I quite enjoyed the meta in August/September and to a lesser extent October, split builds, pressure builds and spike builds all saw a decent amount of play (although the most common build, dual rangers, could be seen as both spike and pressure due to sloth hunter's shot and turret ranger's in general being quite broken).

What do you think will lead to more build diversity, every single build requiring to use a handful of broken skills (Lingering Curse, PnH, WE, Foul Feast) to work or a bit more freedom in skill choices and actual playstyles due to smaller differences between the strengh of skills (in play).

Quote:

I almost always agree with the nerfs necessary for balance. But sometimes, you nerf too much and the game becomes stale. I know that you can 'whoru' me Mitch, and put me in my place, but just consider the fact that certain skills, like IA, occasionally need to be kept a bit stronger to promote different playstyles.

IA wasn't overly problematic, but it did dumb down rangers, in fact it was probably the least problematic of the skills I mentioned. The Melshot bar people run now essentially does the same except it's a bit less spammy/mindless and a bit more versatile.

I D E L E T E D I · Mar 17, 2009, 11:59 PM // 23:59

For whats its worth, I agree with Polly here that the game needs drastic meta changes every once in a while to keep the game fresh and interesting. WE fits in nicely with the slight power creep thats been happening and imo is fine as it is really, changing it will most likely kill it.

And IA was a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing awesome skill, i loved it. It punished bad positioning and it wasn't ridiculously overpowered, but fit in well with the slight power creep.

But Lingering and PnH, make all these other skills look pale in comparison. It has to die, PnH will most likely die with Lingering if it gets nerfed since PnH is only really needed against Hex heavy teams and there are better skills for condition removal.

Jatt · Mar 18, 2009, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

The period of time in which my guild was rank 1 was the closest the game has been to balanced. This can be seen by the fact that I am the best, and I was winning.

But really.. why are we even still talking about this? Master Fuhon had it right all along.

Asplode · Mar 18, 2009, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

[nH] style keyboard smashing build

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asplode

...inevitably ends in a clash of opinions which cannot be resolved anyway.

Case in point: people who call other builds keyboard smashing and their own builds honorable.

Snow Bunny · Mar 18, 2009, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

You mean people would be running the exact same builds except a lot of people would probably run an IA ranger instead of a Mel Shot one?

Pre-nerf turret rangers would have been taken over an IA ranger. Poison spread would just be cleaned up by an FF necro or Recovery.

Quote:

I quite enjoyed the meta in August/September and to a lesser extent October, split builds, pressure builds and spike builds all saw a decent amount of play (although the most common build, dual rangers, could be seen as both spike and pressure due to sloth hunter's shot and turret ranger's in general being quite broken).

That was a meta of spike builds. Split all but died off. Dual rangers with serious spiking power does not constitute pressure.

Quote:

What do you think will lead to more build diversity, every single build requiring to use a handful of broken skills (Lingering Curse, PnH, WE, Foul Feast) to work or a bit more freedom in skill choices and actual playstyles due to smaller differences between the strengh of skills (in play).

Never stated I didn't wish for the skills aforementioned to not be nerfed. On the contrary, I want them to be nerfed. But the IA nerf was a bit too harsh. Instead of 3 targets and 5 recharge, they could have made it 2 targets and 3 or 4 recharge. That way it might see some play. Small buffs and big nerfs lead to build diversity. You nerf PnH and the monk backline will be the way it's been for some months now - WoH+RC. Small buffs - small but noticeable buffs to boonprots and LoD, in a way to make them equally viable, would be good. A small nerf to WoH to accordingly put it on the same level as boonprots and LoD would make the three of them viable.

If you don't make small buffs, then the meta might be balanced, but it will be stale.

Quote:

IA wasn't overly problematic, but it did dumb down rangers, in fact it was probably the least problematic of the skills I mentioned. The Melshot bar people run now essentially does the same except it's a bit less spammy/mindless and a bit more versatile.

It dumbed down rangers a bit but have been nerfed less harshly. A revert to cripshit as well might be good.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Mar 18, 2009, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jatt

But really.. why are we even still talking about this? Master Fuhon had it right all along.

It's not the most balanced state the game has been in, but it IS the most balanced state the game has been in in the past year (maybe even year and a half).

There were imbalanced skills, theyeven dictated the meta to a certain extent, but it was still possible to win without using them (see StS vs BdV final).

After NOW won the october monthly the meta game changed a lot and just about everyone started running extremely gimmicky spike builds, sup managed to win the next monthly with split mainly because Wurms was in the rotation.

Then in december hexes and smites dominated everything but rawr build, and it's basically been like that ever since.

But I'm sure you'll disagree with me, after all rawr didn't win any monthlies from August to November, and the game is only balanced if rawr wins right?

zling · Mar 19, 2009, 05:04 PM // 17:04

funny how you people claim that a dynamic meta and true balance can't live together... perhaps you misuse the term "balance".
when I and I'm sure other people here reffer to "true balance" we mean no power creep at all. no overpowered skills, no underpowered skills, every skill around the same level but with different effects thus allowing variants. variants=dynamic meta, no overpowered skills=balance, the combination of the 2=true balance.

lets take the Warrior profession as an example: pre [primal rage] and [warrior's endurance] buff Warriors had many viable builds. from Crip Slash and DSlash to Shock Axe to Dev Hammer and Magehaunter to even YAA and Coward. now I'm not saying it was perfect, far from it, however it's better than pre nerf(and perhaps even post nerf) PR, the odd Hammer War and especially WE that everyone and their mother seems to run now. however even if WE will be put back in line but problem wouldn't be entirely solved. the fact that every non WE bar has either sever+gash+S&M(sword), disember(or evis)+executioner's(or body blow)+distrupting(or agonizing)(axe) and dev(or magehaunter)+crushing(or pulervising)+bash(hammer) and all got frenzy+rush(besides flail+enraging of hammer) shows something about the regular Warrior skills. the tactics line, most strength skills(besides flail+enraging, body blow and almighty bull's), and all other weapon skills(not mentioned above) are entirely ignored, which presents the core of the "true balance" problem.

now with other less versatile(3 different weapons) professions it's even worst. I do mean: professions(non core professions), attributes(blood magic, illusion magic, earth magic, beast mastery, tactics, etc) and skills(axe twist, none shall pass, expert's focus, arcing shot, chain lightning, energy blast, swirling aura, divine intervention, spell shield, heal area, heal other, mend ailment, pensive guardian, defile flesh, envenom enchantment, ulcerous lungs, fetid ground, soul feast, chaos storm, wastrel's demise, persistence of memory, and many many more skills) that are never used at all.

now, I know it's hard to make all elites not to mention all skills playable, however if even half the total skills and elites will be viable thus see play, than we'll get a lot closer a true balance.

Master Fuhon · Mar 19, 2009, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Power creep is feasible to add to a game, it’s just an extremely advanced concept to work with. Abilities don’t have the same numerical values to begin with, and it’s hard to compare things like speed to damage.

What makes this worse, skills do not scale with the same equations, nor do players. As you increase the power of some, they predictably increase linearly. Others are exponential. The best example of this I find to be Primal Rage. I’ll try to explain why. First off, I don’t have a deep math background so my terms might be off.

Kiting does not scale according to linear benefits; it doesn’t save 50 or 100 or 150 damage. It has exponential benefits. The earlier you pre-kite something, the less likely you are to take damage at all. No kiting makes you take full 500 damage. Kiting late makes you take 250. Pre-kiting since the start, you maybe take 50. Because kiting scales exponentially instead of linearly, being able to negate kiting will reverse the exponential trend, giving it an appearing of being an exponential increase. I think critical hits are just a multiplier on linear scaling, like saying it scales linear but faster.

IAS on the other hand, it has a linear DPS increase and an exponential compression increase. The more attack skills you can fit in the faster your damage rate scales. So by activating an IAS, you scale linearly. By fitting as many attack skills into that time frame you scale exponentially; also stacked conjures and things like that function similarly to activating all attack skills in a damage chain.

The TLDR version is exponential increases are powerful and you don’t have to know math, you just have to copy what good warriors do. Try to consider this when you discuss Warrior’s Endurance or any combinations of skills. You’ll notice it in any game as it introduces attack/cast speed increases in a consistent fashion. It’s typically broken on a class that never burns out, either energy or adrenaline wise.

But if it isn’t obvious enough, being able to activate skills so closely together because of recharges or adrenaline/energy refill rates (aka spamming) is strong. Knowing how strong is difficult, because as I would expect, reversing exponential trends would have a greater effect on the way those skills work. That's probably why you see Charge/Incoming on flaggers.

Still Number One · Mar 19, 2009, 07:08 PM // 19:08

when talking about "balance" there are a few people who mean they want every skill in the game to be on equal footing putting diversity in builds. For those of us who realize that task is pretty much impossible considering the number of skills in this game and the amount of effort being put into skill balance, we define balance as having every play style equally effective. Meaning spike, pressure, and split play should all be playable. That would spice up the game a lot more than just buffing random skills because we face different play styles, rather than just new spikes every month. Spiking pretty much has been and probably still is a lot more effective than pressure and split play right now. Pressure is trying desperately to make a comeback, and split is pretty much almost non existent (even though split is all my guild runs because I deem it as the most fun).

Dronte · Mar 19, 2009, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Insane energy gain with frenzy for a warrior!.. oh my god how imbalanced that is.. you need energy for healing breeze spam, i know!

btw, its a balanced skill. nothing bad with it. But if it gets nerfed I'll be the first to QQ about how imbalanced eviscerate is. or cleave.

zling · Mar 19, 2009, 07:18 PM // 19:18

"That's probably why you see Charge/Incoming on flaggers."
hmmm, what? are we playing the same game?

but anyway, while I agree with your so called "math", or at least your logic, it doesn't change the fact that there are too few usable skills in this game compared to unusable skills. it doesn't matter exactly how much damage [primal rage] allows you to get through(anti kiting) because by using a combination of [frenzy] and [rush] you pretty much get the same thing, it just requires more skill and leaves you more vulnerable at times. well not exactly the same, [primal rage] is elite for a reason, but the point remains... the point is though that there are plenty of skills that could be made usable and other skills that could be toned down to be in line with the rest.

and how exactly is power creep a good thing? it forces people to use certain skills because they're just too good to be without. if we actually get a "true balance" which we won't, hopes up for GW2 but I doubt it will happen even there, than power creep will serve no purpose at all. until than it's what we have, whether we like it or not

***edit***
just saw this post, after I made this one, so...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dronte

Insane energy gain with frenzy for a warrior!.. oh my god how imbalanced that is.. you need energy for healing breeze spam, i know!

btw, its a balanced skill. nothing bad with it. But if it gets nerfed I'll be the first to QQ about how imbalanced eviscerate is. or cleave.

I really hope you're kidding, cause if not than you're just a retarded troll... so anyway, yeah Warrior needs the 1337 [mending] and [healing breeze] to use energy, right... cause Warriors dont have [power attack][protector's strike][bull's strike][frenzy] and [shock]/[dash] for actually useful energy skills

and of course it's balanced, it lets Warriors spam their skills constantly without any drawbacks. dealing the same amount of damage as other "normal"/"balanced"/"insert other word here" builds, just a lot more frequently cause you don't rely on adrenaline but unlimited energy. so yeah, it's balanced alright

P.S neither [eviscerate] nor [cleave] are imbalanced. no idea how you can even compare the power of these 2 skills with the stupidly overpowered [warrior's endurance]. ever watch a GvG lately? guess not cause if you did you would have had your answer right there... basically you don't see any [eviscerate] nor [cleave] bars, rather you only see [warrior's endurance] and the odd post nerf [primal rage] and a Hammer Warrior here and there...

Dronte · Mar 19, 2009, 07:46 PM // 19:46

The point of my post was: before the PR buff noone had a real problem with WE. PR buff had come with QQ-s about it, it got nerfed. Then the problem is WE. If it gets nerfed ppl gonna find another useful warrior elite (like evisc, then later cleave when its smashed) and want it to be nerfed.
You dont have to spam bulls nor shock/dash btw, I really think power attack is a simple problem. Bit less dmg or longer recharge and we are fine. Dont have to ruin a good elite skill.

Phe Belladona · Mar 19, 2009, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dronte

The point of my post was: before the PR buff noone had a real problem with WE. PR buff had come with QQ-s about it, it got nerfed. Then the problem is WE. If it gets nerfed ppl gonna find another useful warrior elite (like evisc, then later cleave when its smashed) and want it to be nerfed.
You dont have to spam bulls nor shock/dash btw, I really think power attack is a simple problem. Bit less dmg or longer recharge and we are fine. Dont have to ruin a good elite skill.

why areyou lying when there are "Nerf WE!!!" threads on this very forum for ppl to check dated before primal got buffed?