Curse

Edwards · Mar 15, 2009, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whenitrainsitpours

However we've gotten a taste for PR so Shock Axe is stale.

Actually, Shock Axe is as fun as ever. The problem is that people are now used to playing bars that make it way easier for them to be effective and get kills. WE is spamming 123, tab, 123, tab, 123, tab, 123... and getting kills because the bar is overpowered. Playing Shock Axe effectively takes considerably more skill. So bad players say that Shock Axe is boring and ineffective because they can't c-space their way to victory. Things like faking spikes, good positioning, good target selection and swapping all go out the window with builds like PR and WE, because you can spike easily every five seconds, and eventually, the other team's monks won't be able to keep up.

Krill · Mar 15, 2009, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

E denial, when was the last time you actually saw a Mesmer in say GvG use [energy surge][energy burn] or other E denial skills? or wait, are you talking about the meta from like 2 years ago?

Energy burn isn't meta but it certainly does still see play as a form of e-denial and a spike assist skill, but it's obviously not going to do anything to WE warriors besides help spike.

The only decent e-denial for any martial class is spirit shackles, which is difficult to cast and not likely to stick long. During the meta when everyone was running WE and ED rangers it did see some play, but that was before PnH was buffed.

zling · Mar 15, 2009, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bong Bro Zac

anet need to QUIT nerfing everything players find good... maybe they should buff the TON of skills that are completely useless and maybe make elite skills what they should be.. ELITE. There are obviously some very overpowered skills... yet a lot more are underpowered and completely useless which is why we have "meta-builds" cause there are so few great skills to choose from.. imo EVERY single skill in the game should have a useable and competent balence to it but very few do

if everything will be overpowered than every game will be a "rock paper scissors" match, aka build wars. this game is guild wars not build wars, thank you very much.

a better solution will be to nerf all these overpowered skills back in line with the other, mediocre, skills. that way everyone will actually have some versatility on what to run, because there's nothing that's clearly overpowered therefore not running it will be sub par. it will also mean that the builds themselves won't be as big of an issue, but rather player and team skills, which is a good thing Imho.

moriz · Mar 15, 2009, 09:40 PM // 21:40

newsflash: dumb people think smart people are dumb!

nobody is asking for things to be nerfed to uselessness, but to have them more in line with other, decent skills. there's a difference between the two, and it's a difference you cannot fathom, apparently.

zling · Mar 15, 2009, 09:42 PM // 21:42

ummm, what part of "mediocre" don't you understand?
mediocre is not useless nor sucky, it is usable just not uber...
here are some "mediocre" skills that these overpowered skills should fall in line with:
[frenzy]
[sprint]
[rush]
[crushing blow]
[sun and moon slash]
[coward]
[devastating hammer]
[eviscerate]
[executioner's strike]
[power spike]
[energy burn]
[energy surge]
[migraine]
[shield of deflection]
[shielding hands]
[reversal of fortune]
[weapon of shadow]
[victorious sweep]
[mystic sweep]
[anthem of flame]
[crippling anthem]
[anthem of weariness]
[spear of lightning]

I hope you get the point by now... incase you still don't, these mediocre skills have seen quite a lot of gameplay, some more than others, all are very usable yet not overpowered that they're must haves in any build. not even [frenzy]+[rush] combo with [primal rage] and stuff around, not to mention that [flail]+[enraging charge] is a better combo for hammers, so you always have a choice...

Phe Belladona · Mar 15, 2009, 09:44 PM // 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

E denial, when was the last time you actually saw a Mesmer in say GvG use [energy surge][energy burn] or other E denial skills? or wait, are you talking about the meta from like 2 years ago?

oi! dont dis surge and burn all the cool kids run it, tho tbh pblock is just worth more cause of lingering and resolve. but just waiting for hexes to gtfo!

Bong Bro Zac · Mar 15, 2009, 09:52 PM // 21:52

i never said some skills were not balenced..lol nice list i agree most of those skills are balenced but compare the number of skills people consider useless to the number of skills people consider overpowered...maybe they need to buff those useless skills and we would have some more viable counters to these uber skills. WE is a very good skill and it may need some pvp nerf but nothing too harsh maybe 2 energy every hit and lower max energy. and by worst mods meaning if you dont have something constructive to say it should be deleted... maybe thats why only the assholes stick around guru

zling · Mar 15, 2009, 10:01 PM // 22:01

now you've finally seen the light! that's exactly what I and a few more posters in here said all along. since this thread is only about [warrior's endurance] than we're mainly discussing this skill, and more specifically how to nerf it SLIGHTLY without completely killing the skill like Izzy loves doing.
and if you look around in other threads you'll also see some good suggestions of buffing useless skills back in line and nerfing overpowered skills into the same line. that way there will be a true balance like so many people want!

Whenitrainsitpours · Mar 15, 2009, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwards

Actually, Shock Axe is as fun as ever. The problem is that people are now used to playing bars that make it way easier for them to be effective and get kills. WE is spamming 123, tab, 123, tab, 123, tab, 123... and getting kills because the bar is overpowered. Playing Shock Axe effectively takes considerably more skill. So bad players say that Shock Axe is boring and ineffective because they can't c-space their way to victory. Things like faking spikes, good positioning, good target selection and swapping all go out the window with builds like PR and WE, because you can spike easily every five seconds, and eventually, the other team's monks won't be able to keep up.

Hmm...WE is 123 tab...however only 2 skills can be spammed jaja.

Yes, I know Shock Axe takes skill but 8 adrenaline for a deep wound is not as effective as WE applying deep wound for 5 adrenaline with only 2 adrenaline skills on the bar. Also, spiking with a Shock Axe bar is easier to catch. When their monks see you just attacking for a bit without using your adrenaline skills. When you unload Eviscerate, they can SB and stop the rest of the spike.

Also, saying you can spike every 5 seconds with either PR or WE is exaggerated since it doesn't happen. PR couldn't be kited and could be cancelled easily and jumped back in very easily. However, if your rangers aren't complete garbage, you should be able to Dshot Power Attack which should be easier than Dshotting WoH.

Edwards · Mar 16, 2009, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whenitrainsitpours

Hmm...WE is 123 tab...however only 2 skills can be spammed jaja.

Yes, I know Shock Axe takes skill but 8 adrenaline for a deep wound is not as effective as WE applying deep wound for 5 adrenaline with only 2 adrenaline skills on the bar. Also, spiking with a Shock Axe bar is easier to catch. When their monks see you just attacking for a bit without using your adrenaline skills. When you unload Eviscerate, they can SB and stop the rest of the spike.

Also, saying you can spike every 5 seconds with either PR or WE is exaggerated since it doesn't happen. PR couldn't be kited and could be cancelled easily and jumped back in very easily. However, if your rangers aren't complete garbage, you should be able to Dshot Power Attack which should be easier than Dshotting WoH.

How is any of this relevant?

Also, if you're arguing dshot as a counter, you're arguing for a nerf.

dusanyu · Mar 16, 2009, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Maybe it is you who is scared to adapt to a change to Warriors' Endurance?

It's not like making this game less brainless will do damage to people that aren't completely terrible or don't want to improve to get their way.

Nah I Don't Even use the bloody thing, the Bar Severely lacks the Spiking power and Utility of Shock Axe. The bloody Fact remains that there is Stronger Bars used By assassins that are just as spamable do more damage and have more utility and yet we Dont see the QQ threads about this now do we?

Now that being Said my Stance on WE is based on the fact that I am Dead tired of the fact that every time Warriors Get an option of a Bar to use other than the "Two Stand Byes" People QQ about it! lets say you get your nerf of PR what is the next stop on the QQ train Conjure spells? Distracting Chop? AR rating for warriors too high?

Tyla · Mar 16, 2009, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by dusanyu

Nah I Don't Even use the bloody thing, the Bar Severely lacks the Spiking power and Utility of Shock Axe. The bloody Fact remains that there is Stronger Bars used By assassins that are just as spamable do more damage and have more utility and yet we Dont see the QQ threads about this now do we?

I suppose you didn't notice you sacrifice the utility of Shock for the power of Power Attack and Protector's Strike for greater spiking power that doesn't require charging and has a recharge of 3?

Warriors' Endurance is more powerful than Palm Strike, mostly because if you don't hit Palm Strike you've got no double-strike, whereas you've still got your other shit on a Warrior.

Quote:

Now that being Said my Stance on WE is based on the fact that I am Dead tired of the fact that every time Warriors Get an option of a Bar to use other than the "Two Stand Byes" People QQ about it!

PR was just a sped up Eviscerate. WE is a cheapo (but stronger) Dervish. Spam attack skills for a shit ton of damage and win, even if you're that terrible.

[uote]lets say you get your nerf of PR what is the next stop on the QQ train Conjure spells? Distracting Chop? AR rating for warriors too high?[/QUOTE]
You're very funny. How does an IAS/IMS even compare in strength to Conjure, D-Chop and AR?

I D E L E T E D I · Mar 16, 2009, 08:56 AM // 08:56

A 4 page thread on WE? Out of all the things that need fixing, this really is one of the minor onces.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Mar 16, 2009, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by I D E L E T E D I

A 4 page thread on WE? Out of all the things that need fixing, this really is one of the minor onces.

It's not that minor tbh, nowhere near the magnitude of Lingering Curse or Peace And Harmony, but still.

The main problem I have with WE is that it's super brainless, any retard can play it and be effective with it (especially now they get buffed with SoH and Judge's)

Whenitrainsitpours · Mar 16, 2009, 10:30 AM // 10:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

It's not that minor tbh, nowhere near the magnitude of Lingering Curse or Peace And Harmony, but still.

The main problem I have with WE is that it's super brainless, any retard can play it and be effective with it (especially now they get buffed with SoH and Judge's)

Wrong. With PR, you always got the IMS boost with either PR or Rush, IAS was the only thing you may not get 100% of the time. However with WE, you either get the IMS or IAS so the WE bar definitely takes more skill than the PR bar even if the WE bar doesn't take much.

I D E L E T E D I · Mar 16, 2009, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

It's not that minor tbh, nowhere near the magnitude of Lingering Curse or Peace And Harmony, but still.

The main problem I have with WE is that it's super brainless, any retard can play it and be effective with it (especially now they get buffed with SoH and Judge's)

But WE is not really the problem in my oponion( which counts for little when it comes to balance issues, just like all the other Top Calibre Players in this thread ), its the brainlessness of the bar that is, which pretty much comes down to the spamibility of Power and Prot Strike.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Mar 16, 2009, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whenitrainsitpours

Wrong. With PR, you always got the IMS boost with either PR or Rush, IAS was the only thing you may not get 100% of the time. However with WE, you either get the IMS or IAS so the WE bar definitely takes more skill than the PR bar even if the WE bar doesn't take much.

So how does that make me wrong? Where did I compare it to PR? Primal Rage was obviously more broken than WE (although it felt more like playing a warrior) but WE is the most brainless warrior bar since steady stance fear me spammers.

Vanquisher · Mar 16, 2009, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

if everything will be overpowered than every game will be a "rock paper scissors" match, aka build wars. this game is guild wars not build wars, thank you very much.

Wrong. This game is very much rock paper scissors, and always has been. Incidently, it should always continue to be so if there is to be any form of what you're defining as 'balance'.

Think about it - you are playing a split build. You come across a team spike build. You gain an advantage the longer the match goes on (as is with split builds), but if the spike build can beat you quickly enough you lose (as should be the case). Similar split vs. pressure. Pressure vs. spike is the odd one out, because what actually happens with spike builds is one or two slots dedicated to the kill objective, with 5 or 6 dedicated to staying alive. This is where one of the fundamental problems with spike comes into play (should require more slots on the bar than it actually does, a la old Obs Flame, which dedicated 3 slots to the spike). One of the problems with Obs Flame however, was the ability to add in Wards and over team-preservation skills with no real sacrifice. While self-preservation is/should be/should have been required on caster spike builds more than it is/will be/was used, the trade-off wasn't effective enough, hence the incredibly thin line between 'overpowered' caster (or even normal template) spike characters and the more kindly looked upon 'balanced' template characters.

The simple fact of the matter is every build should have an advantage against others, which should run in a pattern, much as rock-paper-scissors. Hex should have the advantage over "rainbow" and "caster" spike, and initial advantage over split (in terms of 7/8 vs. 5/6, but gradually decreasing over time), and be about on par with heavy-physical builds (in terms of the ability to shut-down physicals to an extent, but also be dealing with the fact they're full of vulnerable casters), while condition based builds should have the advantage over 'some' spikes, 'some' hex builds (generally condition-centric builds rely on heavy physicals), and initial advantage over split. As both are a form of pressure, both should lose their advantage to split as games wear on, as they should to spike to an extent (realistically they can be outlasted, but due to their high investment in attack, they should be far more able to score kills consistently than spike).

Meanwhile, spike should gain advantage over time vs. pressure (both hex and condition), and non-condition physical pressure. Inversely, it should lose it's initial advantage vs. split, as pressure can be applied to the Lord in a timely manner, thus reducing the spiking ability. Same with pressure vs. split.

"Balanced" should, by that end, suffer against all builds, but due to the diversity in play, be able to utilise all three different structures (split, spike, pressure) to effectively be on par with the other three.

In short;

Spike should:

Have an initial advantage vs. split.
Have an initial disadvantage vs. pressure.

Pressure should:

Have an initial advantage vs. split.
Have an initial advantage vs. spike.

Split should:

Have an initial disadvantage vs. pressure.
Have an initial disadvantage vs. spike.

Problems therefore occur as follows;

One style has skills that give it too much of an advantage.
Victory or Death needs to be re-introduced with a makeover to make split more attractive in terms of the end-game, which can be reached with good play, but not to easy to stall for and abuse.
Bar composition allows for oe style to be too powerful in terms of countering others (ie. imbalance in skills and the use in conjunction with one another).

Neo-LD · Mar 16, 2009, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Vanquisher what are you talking about, spike has the initial advantage over pressure since it can score kills from the first moment of contact. If the initial spikes succeed, subsequent spikes will be easier, and the spike team will wipe the pressure team while encountering virtually no resistance since various parts of the enemy offense are always down. However, if the spikes fail, the spike team accomplishes nothing, and advantage swings to the pressure team as the spike's defense runs out of energy.

/tangent. Please return to your regularly scheduled thread.

Vanquisher · Mar 16, 2009, 06:34 PM // 18:34

The spike vs. pressure one goes both ways. The reason I place emphasis on pressure having an initial advantage is the fact that, as you say, spike builds generally can be more selective in their targetting, ie. spiking the same person out over and over far more easily than pressure builds, where you look to kill whoever is most vulnerable at x moment.

However, the concept of pressure is that of quick wins, while spike allows more utility and defensive measures in builds, which, from a balance perspective, puts forward that pressure should be most efficient early in matches. Unfortunately, it does take some time for that pressure to develop, so maybe it should be more spike > pressure > spike, all in a very quick period of about 2/3 minutes, before spike > pressure once again due to the lack of defensive allowances in pressure-centric builds.

But then again, most pressure focused builds will look to have disruptive measures to stop spikes destroying them before they can get any solid pressure foundation going, as well as using them to unlock the other teams defensive measures, which gives them windows.

In terms of build structure I stick by my initial point that pressure should have the beginning advantage over spike builds, due to the longevity spike builds have incorporated into them that pressure builds do not.

Remember though, this is purely an opinionated 'should', and is by no means reflected within the game.