Curse

Jensy · Apr 07, 2009, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Guildmates and I were laughing at the thought of the outrage that would occur if they fixed it so that FC doesn't effect anything other than mesmer skills in PvP...

C'mon, we can't be the only ones bored of seeing the 999th FC water mesmer x_x

Neo-LD · Apr 07, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

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Originally Posted by Cirian

[skill]Peace and Harmony[/skill] - Elite Skill. 5e, 0.25s cast, 15s recharge. For 3 seconds, all damage on target ally is reduced to 0.

See what I did there? It's target ally Ether Prism without the energy gain! Simply put, PnH as it is does not belong in GW... nor is tweaking the numbers workable. PnH must die die die, and be reborn (again) as something totally different. Every time I look at he current PnH, I have to /facepalm... it's just unreal. So, another change.

In this case, I'm proposing an unstrippable spike saver that isn't much good against pressure - 3s out of every 15 looks ok to me.

PnH is overpowered but its not a lost concept. Some combination of nerfs to its recharge, cast time, and #of-things-removed will tone it down to the right level. Your suggested overhaul, though, is completely terrible. Monks already have an elite filling that niche - Aura of Faith.

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[skill]Word of Healing[/skill] - if the bonus heal kicks in, you lose 3e.

WoH is partly why pressure doesn't work so great, and might have something to do with this feeling I have about prot losing importance over raw healing. Raw healing takes less skill than prot... so it shouldn't be rewarded. The current WoH just feels way too good, so when it delivers massive 200+ heals I think it should become more expensive to punish bad protting.

Horrid idea. Word is the only red-bar spell in the game efficient enough to keep up with modern offenses. If it ever becomes shut down, that team is instantly in crisis. Not only would nerfing it be a bad idea in general, but your specific change hurts the one skill-rewarding part!

Also, pressure isn't dead. Watch observer and see how almost no team can survive 8v8 for longer than 5 minutes (usually they struggle to make it to 2).

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[skill]Weapon of Warding[/skill] Revert.

Honestly... it's 10e and 1s cast, so the effect should be good for the investment - it's hardly god-mode. Prot = good.

Lets not forget the dang thing is unremovable. Its still perfectly reasonable as it is now.

Burton2000 · Apr 07, 2009, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Maybe make PnH cost 10 energy to make it more in line with other elite hex removal like divert hexes and blessed light? Dunno if that would hit it hard enough though.

Of course if we nerf pnh lingering has to be nerfed as well but thats obvious. To be honest im sick of this smite,hex meta and the sooner these overpowered elites are nerfed the better.

Neo-LD · Apr 08, 2009, 12:15 AM // 00:15

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Originally Posted by Burton2000

Maybe make PnH cost 10 energy to make it more in line with other elite hex removal like divert hexes and blessed light? Dunno if that would hit it hard enough though.

10e is a death's touch for monk spells. No one can afford that for anything other than a spike saver. BLight is unused for a reason.

zling · Apr 08, 2009, 01:03 AM // 01:03

I think PnH is a special case, it will still be worth it on 10 energy. compare to to BL for example, 1 hex+1 condition vs all hexes+all conditions, nice heal vs hexes+conditions end 90% faster for like 3 seconds.
PnH>BL even at 10 energy... PnH Monks will start to bring GoLE, that's all...

honestly the nerf needs to be a lot more severe, but so do VoR, LC, etc as others have mentioned...

Neo-LD · Apr 08, 2009, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Well you're comparing to a pretty bad monk elite, what do you expect? This would be fair imo:

5e 3/4c 10r Removes 1...4 hexes and/or conditions. Residual enchantment thing unchanged.

Makes it slower and interruptible, available less often, and makes it possible that PnH might miss something, if buried deep enough.

zling · Apr 08, 2009, 01:24 AM // 01:24

I mentioned BL only because you did in the post above me, so blame yourself...
and no your new version is still way overpowered. how deep can you burry the DW? it will require at least like 3 chars: ranger(mel shot not magebane), blind bot(bsurge or glyph+steam), weakness(necro or maybe ele with enfeeble, not a Hammer war cause than the weakness will be under DW not above) not to mention the person that actually brings the DW. so that's people focusing on a single target just to make sure the DW sticks. now if this isnt saying GET READY, SPIKE INCOMING than I dont know what is...

and to think that all it will take to remove everything will be PnH and 1 single condi removal, say dismiss...

nope, sorry, not good enough...

Magikarp · Apr 08, 2009, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Horrid idea. Word is the only red-bar spell in the game efficient enough to keep up with modern offenses. If it ever becomes shut down, that team is instantly in crisis. Not only would nerfing it be a bad idea in general, but your specific change hurts the one skill-rewarding part!

Lets not forget the dang thing is unremovable. Its still perfectly reasonable as it is now.

That's because WoH and PS are the only two direct healing skills on the bar -_-. You could say the same thing if you replaced WoH with Glimmer..

As for WoW.. I disagree. Refer to all the previous responses from everyone else for my view.

Neo-LD · Apr 08, 2009, 04:02 AM // 04:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

I mentioned BL only because you did in the post above me, so blame yourself...
and no your new version is still way overpowered. how deep can you burry the DW? it will require at least like 3 chars: ranger(mel shot not magebane), blind bot(bsurge or glyph+steam), weakness(necro or maybe ele with enfeeble, not a Hammer war cause than the weakness will be under DW not above) not to mention the person that actually brings the DW. so that's people focusing on a single target just to make sure the DW sticks. now if this isnt saying GET READY, SPIKE INCOMING than I dont know what is...

and to think that all it will take to remove everything will be PnH and 1 single condi removal, say dismiss...

nope, sorry, not good enough...

I mentioned BLight because the guy above me mentioned it. In any case, my version of PnH wouldn't be all that awesome at digging out deep wounds on spike. Very much inferior to RC, actually.

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Originally Posted by Magikarp

That's because WoH and PS are the only two direct healing skills on the bar -_-. You could say the same thing if you replaced WoH with Glimmer..

Glimmer can't keep up. Word is the only thing that can and thats why its universally taken.

lutz · Apr 08, 2009, 08:11 AM // 08:11

The only reason why Word is the only thing taken on a team is because it is so strong, that it can singlehandedly keep teams up when paired with Patient Spirit.

It isn't necessarily a huge issue now, but I wouldn't be against rebalancing it. It may encourage more balanced monk bars instead of only one monk bringing direct heals.

Cirian · Apr 08, 2009, 05:44 PM // 17:44

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Originally Posted by zling

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Originally Posted by Cirian

[skill]Hex Eater Vortex[/skill] - 10e, 1s cast, 5s recharge. Change the aoe enchant stripping of enemies part to an aoe hex removal from allies part, perfectly countering hexes like Lingering and Suffering.

Just as an aside, it's pretty rude that Smite Hex > HEV.

I thought that was what the Monk elite hex removals were for... generally Mesmer hex+condition removers are offensive not defensive, hence keep the functionality as it is, maybe tweak the numbers, ranges or whatever. and ugh, Smite Hex>Hev? the key to HEV is the AoE enchantment removal from enemies not the damage...

HEV would still do damage, so it's still an offensive spell. Also having a second class with aoe hex removal (and mesmers traditionally do hex removal too) seems a good idea to counter aoe hexes in general.

My other comment about SH>HEV: SH has a bigger aoe, cheaper, same recast, not elite and delivers a tiny heal. HEV costs more, smaller aoe, elite, no tiny heal (lol, it all counts), but it removes some random enchants, which I agree is pretty good but that got it nerfed pretty hard. The damage of both is also quite close. HEV used to be a lot stronger than it is now, and overall I think it's ever so marginally worse than SH all things considered.

Going back to my proposal, I think viable aoe hex removal is something that's missing from the game so that's why I'm suggesting it. The only aoe hex removals I can think of off the top of my head are Windraw Hexes (awful) and Hex Eater Signet (awful).

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Originally Posted by zling

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Originally Posted by Cirian

[skill]Divert Hexes[/skill] - 5e, 0.75s cast, 12s recharge. Remove 0...2 hexes from all nearby allies.

Divert and Withdraw Hexes are both candidates for a change like this... it's an aoe Expel Hexes that needs an investment. There are no crazy extras like conditions removed or bonus healing, because that was always far too good... and it'd be insane on an aoe. It's priced such that even if you're only removing 1 hex, it's ok, but when there's multiple, it'll shine.

I sort of like this change, only problem being that it's AoE to the Monk's location, which on the 1 hand requires bad positioning to be effective and on the other encourages the likes of HA Smiteballs, both of which are bad. if it's a targetted AoE hex removal it will be better Imho.

Oh, whoops... I should have been more specific. Yeah, you cast on a target, it's not a pbaoe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

[skill]Peace and Harmony[/skill] - Elite Skill. 5e, 0.25s cast, 15s recharge. For 3 seconds, all damage on target ally is reduced to 0.

so basically the old [life sheath] just with a time instead of damage counter? there's a reason why the old [life sheath] was never used... oh and the only reason people use the new [ether prism] is because of the energy gain, it lets Eles spam Monk/Rit skills more than a primary Monk/Rit can do... the anti spike is just a sought after bonus which makes it superior to other elite energy management skills.

Ether prism is just for the energy gain? You could have fooled me...

The invulnerability is seriously nice. It's a nice package overall actually.

The PnH thing, yeah that was off the top of my head and I'm not sure what I want from it. Just not the current version, or anything like it. Look, even if it just removed all hexes and conditions and didn't leave that crazy enchant effect behind, it would still be way too good for 5e, 1/4s cast and 7s recharge. It's nuts! Anet would be better changing Divert and/or Withdraw somehow if they want an uber hex solution, PnH should be unrelated to conditions and hexes imo. Some kind of prot effect would be nice.

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Originally Posted by zling

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Originally Posted by Cirian

[skill]Word of Healing[/skill] - if the bonus heal kicks in, you lose 3e.

so basically make it a Healing Prayers version of [zealous benediction]? how about reverting it to its old self? the good old prophecies [word of healing] still saw the light of day, not as much as today obviously but it wasn't unused like the good old prophecies [peace and harmony] or other completely trash elite.

well actually reverting it completely will make it almost inferior to skills like [gift of health] so perhaps a middle ground between the old and the new.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Horrid idea. Word is the only red-bar spell in the game efficient enough to keep up with modern offenses. If it ever becomes shut down, that team is instantly in crisis. Not only would nerfing it be a bad idea in general, but your specific change hurts the one skill-rewarding part!

Haha! I knew this would be controversial but I had to get the ball rolling with some sort of suggestion.

I took a look over the monk heals the other day and WoH and Patient really pop out so far ahead of everything else like Ethereal Light, Healing Whisper, Orison (obviously). Even stuff like Dwayna's Kiss and Words of Comfort, which used to be used, look decidedly trashy these days. Gift of Health is still amazing, but it's balanced with hefty trade-offs, unlike Word or Patient.

It's plainly power creep to deal with increased offensive power yes, but I don't like the idea of buffing a couple of healing spells to deal with a damage problem that then throws a whole basket of other balanced healing spells out of the window y'know? I'd rather the red bars stuff be fairly even and look for ways of making pre-protting better.

The idea I had for Word was to have it heal extra if your target needed it, but you have to pay for it rather than it being free. The motive there is to put the emphasis on protting - if the target doesn't need the extra healing because the monk protted better, the monk doesn't need to pay for the extra heal.

Xyon the Greatest · Apr 08, 2009, 06:59 PM // 18:59

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Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Not to completely throw discussion off-target, but why aren't teams running [marauder's shot] instead of BA on turrets? The damage is a tad higher, and it frees up your elite.

Because 7 seconds of burning is almost 100 damage alone... not to mention perma burning em...

Xyon the Greatest · Apr 08, 2009, 07:05 PM // 19:05

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Originally Posted by God_Hand

[Wastrel's Worry] - 6 recharge, or half damage, or 10 energy

6 recharge would be perfect...

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[Visions of Regret] - half damage, or hostile skills only

Hostile Skills only would be perfect

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[Lingering Curse] - remove degen, increase recharge, or 15-20%

Remove Degeneration would be okay, but a lil more nerf than that

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[Weaken Knees] - remove degen

No, then [Shameful Fear] would be almost better than it.

Hanging Man · Apr 08, 2009, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by pansy malfoy

Guildmates and I were laughing at the thought of the outrage that would occur if they fixed it so that FC doesn't effect anything other than mesmer skills in PvP

That would be absolutely awesome.

Bye bye stupid FC eles muhahahaha

Neo-LD · Apr 08, 2009, 10:59 PM // 22:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cirian

Haha! I knew this would be controversial but I had to get the ball rolling with some sort of suggestion.

I took a look over the monk heals the other day and WoH and Patient really pop out so far ahead of everything else like Ethereal Light, Healing Whisper, Orison (obviously). Even stuff like Dwayna's Kiss and Words of Comfort, which used to be used, look decidedly trashy these days. Gift of Health is still amazing, but it's balanced with hefty trade-offs, unlike Word or Patient.

It's plainly power creep to deal with increased offensive power yes, but I don't like the idea of buffing a couple of healing spells to deal with a damage problem that then throws a whole basket of other balanced healing spells out of the window y'know? I'd rather the red bars stuff be fairly even and look for ways of making pre-protting better.

The idea I had for Word was to have it heal extra if your target needed it, but you have to pay for it rather than it being free. The motive there is to put the emphasis on protting - if the target doesn't need the extra healing because the monk protted better, the monk doesn't need to pay for the extra heal.

1. You have a strange notion that if monks prot well enough, all the red bars will magically grind to a halt. It just doesn't work that way. Even with perfect protting (which is never achieved by human players, anyways) red bars move, a lot, because so many things go under Spirit Bond, over Shielding Hands, through Guardian, etc.

2. How would you recommend protting degen? Pure red bar isn't the most inspiring mechanic in the game, but it is a required one.

The conclusion you must be coming to is that if you want greater variety in monk backlines, the solution is either to scale back offense (at which point a nerf to word would be acceptable) or raise other skills up to word's level.

valence · Apr 09, 2009, 12:14 AM // 00:14

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Originally Posted by Neo-LD

The conclusion you must be coming to is that if you want greater variety in monk backlines, the solution is either to scale back offense (at which point a nerf to word would be acceptable) or raise other skills up to word's level.

Note when you scale single damage package up, you get a 3-2-1 feast. WoH's healing should be relative to the health players have, same for damage.

Max health (and armor) depends how good spikes can be. Give everybody 2.000 health and in theory you can still pressure, but spikes are just a nono. The balance between this is a very thin line, and in GW always favoured spikes (even after the first day GW was on the market).

Krill · Apr 09, 2009, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

The conclusion you must be coming to is that if you want greater variety in monk backlines, the solution is either to scale back offense (at which point a nerf to word would be acceptable) or raise other skills up to word's level.

If hexes and PnH are put in check there may be room for some other elites on prot monks, but no, WoH isn't going anywhere because it's simply too good. Prot wise I think Aura of Faith is the greatest skill nobody uses, such great utility preventing damage and restoring red bars. I disagree with buffing other healing elites up to WoH level though, WoH should be tuned down slightly and healing burst should be buffed slightly.

I also disagree that 10e makes a monk elite useless, people actually did use to run blessed light, shield of deflection and shield of regeneration.

Reverend Dr · Apr 09, 2009, 08:35 PM // 20:35

AoF is great, but it is too versatile without being specialized enough.

On a spike SB saves more damage. For small prot guardian saves more (50% vs slightly less) damage and lasts longer. Against RoF, Aura isn't spammable enough. It doesn't red bar itself and requires something else to fill that role.

It just doesn't shine compared to other options. Now it does work great in supporting any other prot or heal, but that is more often than not going to end in a waste of energy. Only after all other options are no longer terribly useful will it be considered for prot.

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Originally Posted by Neo-LD

the solution is either to scale back offense (at which point a nerf to word would be acceptable)

This is prettymuch the case. I would love to see a nerf to word, or perhaps I would love to see that word could be nerfed. Word is too powerful.