Curse

Reverend Dr · Mar 04, 2009, 09:10 AM // 09:10

We are adapting to the changing of the guild wars meta.

Most of us are quitting.

Ex Death · Mar 04, 2009, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Oh and scruffy i never said all those overpowered shit shouldn't be nerfed, but nerfing them now without touching defense is just retarded.

Exactly. Assuming the supposedly overpowered offense which is being used - rend, turrets, primal rage, lingering curse etc. gets nerfed, what is going to happen next? With defense as it is, spiking will remain the only method of scoring kills except for the fact that spikes will be weaker than before thanks to the turret nerf. Pressure will be a complete joke because the ONLY viable pressure skill in the game is lingering curse which is a ridiculous direct counter to the overpowered party healing in this game. What will happen is that far more games will be going to 28 minutes because the only form of scoring kills (spiking) will be weaker and a lot more people are subsequently going to be complaining about the tie breaker. I will be thoroughly dissapointed if none of the overpowered offense nerfs are accompanied by overpowered defense nerfs.

You can debate about how much or how little monks have become stronger since the past but the fact is, party healing is by far the single greatest defensive improvement since back then, when only one copy of heal party was being ran ON THE FLAGGER as opposed to all the bullshit being used all over team builds right now. At the very least party healing needs to not be viable on midliners so they need to all pretty much be 2 sec cast times or reworked into the old LoD mechanics (80% health clause) so that running mutliple party heals is discouraged.

Snow Bunny · Mar 04, 2009, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Not to completely throw discussion off-target, but why aren't teams running [marauder's shot] instead of BA on turrets? The damage is a tad higher, and it frees up your elite.

-Pluto- · Mar 04, 2009, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigros

You guys should probably write a history of Guild Wars

.

It's funny to see how many people live in the past and how few actually look at the future as future, not as a mirror of the past...

In a case of natural disaster you would probably whine about the old better days and die because of your inability to adapt to change...

But keep at it, it's entertaining

.

Hey man, if I live in a post-apocalyptic wasteland someday, I see nothing wrong with bitching about the days when my water wasn't poisonous and I could see the sun, regardless of whether I adapt to the shitty conditions.

FoxBat · Mar 05, 2009, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Not to completely throw discussion off-target, but why aren't teams running [marauder's shot] instead of BA on turrets? The damage is a tad higher, and it frees up your elite.

It doesn't add burning?

Also, keen/sloth-hunters do more damage.

plastichead · Mar 05, 2009, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Not to completely throw discussion off-target, but why aren't teams running [marauder's shot] instead of BA on turrets? The damage is a tad higher, and it frees up your elite.

disables non attack skills. like flail.

Snow Bunny · Mar 05, 2009, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by plastichead

disables non attack skills. like flail.

[flail] -> [marauder's shot] -> [hunter's shot] -> [savage shot]

edit:

I've done a lot of testing. If you use [Expert's dexterity], at the 15%/+1marks version, the spike is comparable to BA in terms of damage in a second. The Burning from BA adds significantly more though.

I tried [prepared shot] though, and it adds some very nice emangement though.

plastichead · Mar 05, 2009, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

[flail] -> [marauder's shot] -> [hunter's shot] -> [savage shot]

so you hit 4 times to build up adren, engage flail, spike, wait 2 to 3 seconds before you can even begin building adrenaline again?

scruffy · Mar 05, 2009, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ex Death

With defense as it is, spiking will remain the only method of scoring kills.

this is incorrect, because teams will need to dedicate more characters to offense to score kills there will be less defensive characters, resulting in pressure being viable

Pressure will be a complete joke because the ONLY viable pressure skill in the game is lingering curse which is a ridiculous direct counter to the overpowered party healing in this game.

You have this backwards, party healing is the counter to degen hexes, lingering curse just impedes it. It is the only viable pressure skill today because defensive spike builds are so strong. Hence, nerf the spike and it will open up opportunities to pressure again.

What will happen is that far more games will be going to 28 minutes because the only form of scoring kills (spiking) will be weaker and a lot more people are subsequently going to be complaining about the tie breaker.

You are wrong, what will happen is people will go from using 3 offensive characters in their builds to 4 or 5 and then bam people will start dying again.

I will be thoroughly dissapointed if none of the overpowered offense nerfs are accompanied by overpowered defense nerfs.

I would rather nerf the obviously OP offense and then see what needs tweaking rather than guessing and nerfing everything all at once

You can debate about how much or how little monks have become stronger since the past but the fact is, party healing is by far the single greatest defensive improvement since back then, when only one copy of heal party was being ran ON THE FLAGGER as opposed to all the bullshit being used all over team builds right now.

People chained aegis and used tri-spec eles who had wards,blinds and water snares all at the same time

At the very least party healing needs to not be viable on midliners so they need to all pretty much be 2 sec cast times or reworked into the old LoD mechanics (80% health clause) so that running mutliple party heals is discouraged.

I disagree, a team should be able to use whatever type of build they want. However it should be balanced in a way that there is no superior build type or else you never get to see any of the other possible interesting builds and strategies.

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Kaon · Mar 05, 2009, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

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Scruffy you are now upholding the logic which i so heartfully hate. Basically your logic is this: "If we buff defense (or nerf offense whatever) then people will run more offensive characters to score kills." This is so incredibly flawed i have a hard time explaining it to you because it's crystal clear that this is wrong. Anyways i will try.

Actually, your statement isn't 100% wrong, there are very few instances where it holds. This is when defense skills that are brought on offensive characters get nerfed so a fully defensive character is required. Most famous was the ward against melee nerf going from 10e to 15e. Basically somewhere in the summer 2007 the choice was running an offensive P+me/e midliner or a defensive e/mo+me/rt midline. When ward was 10 energy the mesmer could easily take it so people preferred the offensive frontline. However when the ward was nerfed you could not really run it on it on a mesmer and required an ele to do it. This meant the E/mo+me midline had effectively become better than the p+me midline so the game got more defensive. This is the only situation inwhich your logic holds: when powerful defensive skills used on an offensive character get nerfed so that they now require a defense character to be effective. However this is only very rarely the case, in fact there are only very few examples. Now, on to breaking your logic.

When you make a build. You take the best skills. Regardless whether they're defensive or offensive. Say hypothetically as a midliner we have the choice of an offensive character like a ranger or a defensive character like a bsurger we simply pick the one that is best. Let's say that most teams prefer the ranger so they pick it. Now people are beginning to complain that rangers are overpowered, so he gets nerfed. According to your logic teams will now replace their offensive drop with say a third warrior because otherwise killing will be too hard. The thing is, a bsurger is still better than the third warrior so one team becomes smart, takes a bsurger, and rolls all the 3 warrior builds, partially because the 3 warrior builds have little defense. Other teams realize this as well, and everyone takes a bsurger. Only now everyone runs highly defensive builds that can barely kill each other. However they do not have any other options because replacing any of their defense with more offense is going to cost them games because the defensive skills are simply better.

WHEN YOU MAKE A BUILD YOU CHOSE THE BEST SKILLS REGARDLESS WHETHER THEY'RE OFFENSIVE OR DEFENSIVE. Nerfing turretrangers isn't going to make people run a third warrior, but rather a spike dom mesmer or bsurger. The third warrior will only be better than those 2 if monk defense is brought down severely.

The other way around: "More offense forces people to run more defense." No. Let's take the same example, only instead of everyone running a ranger in the beginning everyone runs a bsurger. Let's say the bsurger gets nerfed so the ranger becomes better. People are going to bring the ranger they will NOT bring a water ele and and another defensive char say ritualist, instead of their say dom mesmer. Why? Because a dom mesmer + ranger > water ele + ritualist if balance is done properly.

The problem with guild wars currently is that when the choice has to be made between an offensive and a defensive character the defensive character is almost always the better choice.

Oh and the reason people use burning arrow is because it adds 6*14=84 burning damage. Combine this with the raw bonus damage and you'll notice that the skill deals over 100 armor ignoring damage... Quite RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing insane.

tigros · Mar 05, 2009, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Pluto-

Hey man, if I live in a post-apocalyptic wasteland someday, I see nothing wrong with bitching about the days when my water wasn't poisonous and I could see the sun, regardless of whether I adapt to the shitty conditions.

Yeah, nothing wrong with it... it's just counter productive (or off topic, if you want) in a thread/topic looking at the future...

Snow Bunny · Mar 05, 2009, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Buff edenial and/or bring boonprots back, nerf [woh].

Nerf fast cast eles, so that primary eles have to be brought back. I liked shatterstone eles a lot.

Watching [StP] play was actually sort of nice - Celly's bsurge build was a welcome change to the legion of me/e clones.

Nerf offense hard, and nerf defense reasonably.

3/4 cast, 5e, 9r on PnH sounds good to my ears.

Burton2000 · Mar 05, 2009, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Celly's bsurge build was a welcome change to the legion of me/e clones.

What game do you play? The only build running me/e is rawr spike which no one besides rawr runs. B-surge is highly used at the moment.

Hp options could do with a boost imo. Buff to lod or other options please.

Ex Death · Mar 05, 2009, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

this is incorrect, because teams will need to dedicate more characters to offense to score kills there will be less defensive characters, resulting in pressure being viable

That is incredibly narrow-minded logic and Kaon has already explained why this is so.

Quote:

You have this backwards, party healing is the counter to degen hexes, lingering curse just impedes it. It is the only viable pressure skill today because defensive spike builds are so strong. Hence, nerf the spike and it will open up opportunities to pressure again.

This is one of the situations which works both ways but what I was implying was that the entire reason why lingering curse was introduced in the first place was because party healing is absolutely ridiculous at the moment as a defensive tool and so the skill would serve as an explicit counter. So how do you counter this skill? You bring even more party healing which simply shows how utterly retarded skill balance has been. This is just a clear example of when an offensive or defensive threat is deemed too powerful its counter is then buffed as opposed to nerfing the initial problem. This particular problem has absolutely nothing to do with spike damage and sorry but nerfing the spike won't bring physical and disruptive pressure back.

Quote:

You are wrong, what will happen is people will go from using 3 offensive characters in their builds to 4 or 5 and then bam people will start dying again.

I can't even begin to explain how utterly retarded and false this statement is. See kaon's post.

Quote:

I would rather nerf the obviously OP offense and then see what needs tweaking rather than guessing and nerfing everything all at once

You could just nerf the overpowered offense but the time between the subsequent skill balance will be incredibly boring and many games will be playing for tie breaker. It just depends really on the competence of the new skill balancer(s).

Quote:

People chained aegis and used tri-spec eles who had wards,blinds and water snares all at the same time

I don't really see what this has to do with my previous point about party healing being the greatest defensive improvement since prophecies. If you're trying to imply that eles back then were more defensive than the modern ele then you're dead wrong. Lets use the standard bsurger as an example. The modern bsurge has only one dedicated damage skill on his bar with the rest of the bar comprising pure utility(gale) and pure defense(blind, ward/party heal, warding). Compare this to the old prophecies/factions eles which always had at least one pure damage skill, but usually two (eg orb + lightning strike), with the rest of the bar being filled up with the same amount of defense as with modern eles (ward, blind, blurred, party heal). The key differences between the two eles is that the prophecies eles almost always had two water snares which also constituted damage (deep freeze, shard storm, ice spikes). So you can quite clearly see that in terms of defense on eles, very little has changed. If fact, they actually carried more offense than the current ones because a lot of their utlity could be used as direct damage.

Quote:

I disagree, a team should be able to use whatever type of build they want. However it should be balanced in a way that there is no superior build type or else you never get to see any of the other possible interesting builds and strategies.

You're actually contradicting yourself and you probably don't even realise it. I'm sure your definition of 'interesting strategies' would at least involve physical and disruptive pressure somewhere. This is, and always will be, impossible if party heals can be run on midliners with almost complete immunity to disruption (assuming people were to actually bring disruption). Which is why I proposed for all party heals to be at least a 2 second cast time or the old LoD. The fact is there WILL be a superior build type (spike) if nothing changes. Yes, it would most likely cut down on defensive midline variety however it would at least open up to pressure being a viable build type and potentially open up to other midline templates.

Snow Bunny · Mar 05, 2009, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burton2000

What game do you play?

Hp options could do with a boost imo. Buff to lod or other options please.

LoD is highly used at the moment as well, on the Mo/W in the midline.

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 05, 2009, 06:23 PM // 18:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

LoD is highly used at the moment as well, on the Mo/W in the midline.

and it's the only place it will be used, until either spirits+PWK get hammered, or overall offense is lowered and woh isn't needed as much to power bars to full, opps. When certain hexes get eliminated from the meta and RC can return on prot monks to help bar push instead of using PnH, you might see lod on a heal monk. Once that happens you'll again see a direct influx in defensive midliners(Bsurge)to try and lower the higher packets of physical dmg, and lack of single powerheal(woh). If all of that happened you might make certain people rejoice, because we'll be back to 2007 but with less layers of passive defense, less overall party healing on certain templates, and 2 semi fragile monks. Then we may bring the slightest amount of shutdown and proceed to monk stomp.

Ex Death · Mar 05, 2009, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burton2000

Hp options could do with a boost imo. Buff to lod or other options please.

Yeah heal party options are far too weak at the moment especially considering non lingering curse pressure is absolutely wreaking teams all over the place.

Warriors need more party heals so here's my suggestion for a change to watch yourself:

"Watch Yourself": 2a Remove armour bonus and recharge. All party members in earshot gain 200 health and for 30 seconds all party members gain +6 health regeneration.

Hopefully that should solve the issues we have at the moment of physical pressure being too powerful and make the game more fun for us all.

scruffy · Mar 05, 2009, 06:50 PM // 18:50

thank you for explaining your argument in better detail kaon, but i still think you are wrong

im not quite sure what build you had in mind when you said they would drop the turret ranger for a bsurge, so i will just ignore trying to make a comparison and instead i will say the general strategy used to beat a team who takes more defense instead of more offense

you said that the team who took less defense would lose, but thats not true, all you need is enough defense to stop their 2 warriors and their spike will be a lot less dangerous

the build of 1 ranger, 2 warriors, 1 mesmer, 1 ele, 1 rit, 2 monks would become viable again because the mesmer wouldnt be begging to get killed anymore

teams who took too much defense in the past always lost because they couldnt kill anything and the pressure would eventually build up

if worst came to worst what would happen is the team with more offensive characters would win at the tie breaker because they have more characters designed for doing damage/assisting doing damage

i hear on the qq forums someone said they are just going to keep nerfing ritualists though, which will only serve to be a buff to spike builds, anet cant get anything right rofl.

as to what ex death is saying about party heals being too strong, i would rather see the nerfs to offense first then see about the party heals

i would consider changing prot was kaolai to 2 second cast and a 20 second recharge, basically a longer recharging but double pumpable version of heal party since its attribute is much better.

also i would lower the health on the spirit of recuperation so that non-pew pew rangers can kill it quickly

this would basically make it a worthwhile strat to send the ranger up to harrass the flagger quite a lot because protective was kaolai and recup would be so fragile, not to mention the effects it would have on flag stand party heals, with things like dom mesmers floating around because they no longer get raped by pew pew turrets. i would also like to see crippling shot buffed to have no recharge, or back to a 1 second recharge

Snow Bunny · Mar 05, 2009, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Is there any serious objection to a revert to LoD? Or at least a good buff? As long as PwK is nerfed in tandem?

scruffy · Mar 05, 2009, 07:15 PM // 19:15

the problem with a buffed LoD is that distrupting it is worth too much, its like an artificial fix to the problem that there is too much damage floating around. once it gets dshotted you lose.