Curse

Kaon · Mar 03, 2009, 12:38 PM // 12:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Offensive buffs you've missed
Ranger templates in general have been buffed.
Warriors have been buffed, PR, WE
Hexes such a empathy,vor, weaken kness, lingering, defile, WOD,
Enchantment removal problems rend, POD, rip
cracked armor

I did put rangers in. The standard ranger template is barely buffed because the poison doesn't deal any damage anymore because everyone has RC. Primal rage only slightly improves warrior damage and when you compare this to old eviscerate and gale i know what i would take. Hexes isn't really offense, they add a lot of defense too and are generally a shitty mechanic. Not to mention hexes used to be SOOO much more powerful, 3r 40s duration faintheartedness, old mantra of persistance? I did put enchantment removal in the list off buffs, and cracked armor is just RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing shit.

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Since when was spirit bond buffed, last I knew it was nerfed.
Defensive nerfs you've missed

The moment it was introduced in the game. It is one of the most overpowered skills in the game.

Quote:

SB
SOD
D anthem
motivation line on paras
Shields up
Watch your self
Incoming

Those skills were utter shit, but they have never been in the game when it was good: prefactions, post-factions, and post-SoD lod era.

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Stances were always a problem, don't think they've been buffed in a long time, it's just the warrior stances have never been nerfed.

Stances have always been a problem, but wild blow got nerfed and warrior stances got buffed severely. Once there was the problem of distortion, but the stances right now are SO MUCH MORE powerful, yet you don't hear anyone complain. Why? Because everything is so broken anyway there's more important issues to focus on.

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I just can't agree with offense being weaker atm over defense. All I see is dual ranger builds spiking crap every 8 seconds or less. Hex teams destroying people in under 4mins even though PNH is being used and certain people claiming party healing is too strong.

People have always been destroyed quickly, but if you just put the list of buffs and nerfs next to each other you'll notice how RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up the game has become, mostly because of defensive nerfs. You forget that if both teams have the power to destroy each other straight away games will swing inbetween teams more instead of making a slow but sure victory for one team.

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I think though that going back to having to use either LOD or heal parties for team healing would either place such skills to be used at stand, so they can be interrupted, or make people use runners that can't do everything very well like Rit templates can now. Nerf spirits that can just plopped out of range, increase cast time on POT.

The september/october 2007 era was the best post nightfal meta we've ever had. It wasn't nearly as good as the prophecies and post-factions meta, but it was good. Untill izzy nerfed lod and buffed WoH and guardian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

kaon is dumb and bad at the game, according to him PnH monks are invincible

This is a fact, it has nothing to do with thinking. They are one of the strongest self surviving characters in the game, only heavy disenchant will take care of them. You calling me stupid just makes you look bad. I know more of this game and its competitive history than anyone else.

You know scruffy, you are arguing without knowledge. I'm pinpointing to the golden era of guild wars, but you have never played then, so you don't understand at all what i mean. Let me just describe what the defense back then consisted ENTIRELY of:

2 boonprots. They had no stances, no spiritbond, no WoH, a very shitty guardian, and only 3 pips of regen. One single warrior could almost solo a boonprot if he stood still.
A support character with BLINDING FLASH, not bsurge, ether prodigy, a very shitty heal party, and sometimes aegis.

Then everyone had 480-540 health, and warriors would deal much more damage than now, and a mesmer had the ability to solo a monk.

Shit died. Quickly. It was fun. War Machine won the GWWC with byob. EvIL got beaten out the 2nd GWFC qualifyer with byob. Offense ruled the game.

MaaKotka · Mar 03, 2009, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

2 boonprots. They had no stances, no spiritbond, no WoH, a very shitty guardian, and only 3 pips of regen. One single warrior could almost solo a boonprot if he stood still.
A support character with BLINDING FLASH, not bsurge, ether prodigy, a very shitty heal party, and sometimes aegis.

Then everyone had 480-540 health, and warriors would deal much more damage than now, and a mesmer had the ability to solo a monk.

Shit died. Quickly. It was fun. War Machine won the GWWC with byob. EvIL got beaten out the 2nd GWFC qualifyer with byob. Offense ruled the game.

I remember that boonprot time being a bit different. Kills were forced via heavy pressure which consisted mostly of heavy energy denial or via forcing enemy team to do mistakes, either forcing bad positioning or forcing bad splits. Boonprots were really good at single target healing/protecting and ep/hp spam cleared party wide damage. Teams could't bring too much middle line defence because if they did, they couldn't kill anything and heck it wasn't even needed because boonprots were so good when coupled with hp spamming ele.

On topic: I think most offence must be toned down. It is crazy how much teams can afford to bring defense and still get kills.

Zabe · Mar 03, 2009, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

kaon is dumb and bad at the game, according to him PnH monks are invincible

I am starting to believe he is just really bad at warrior because he doesn't realize that when you get down to it there are only a few things left that have a legit chance to stop a kill

Weapon of Warding: rigor, target swap
Stances: rigor,wait til its over,swap
Guardian: rend, rigor, swap
Protective was kaolai: party healing isnt going to stop the onslaught of unhindered spikes
Word of Healing: monks can heal people, woopedy doo
Armor, shield sets, vitae runes: this is a legit buff to defense but is not as effective to builds with shellshock
Spirit bond: since they cant preprot with it anymore whenever rend is recharged it prevents people from dying but it isnt efficient
All hex removal: how is this a defensive buff? most teams use hex removal for cleaning warriors, hex builds cover their hexes anyways which forces the other team to waste their elite on a stronger hex removal or they get rolled unless they spike the other team down really fast...
Peace and Harmony: this skill blows, i would rather have RC and just let a midliner take expel or something if you really need hex removal
Blinding surge: this is one of the only legit defensive buffs you have mentioned
Heal Party: when was the last time someone used this? its a terrible skill atm
Self Heals: people dont use self heals except lol lord damage lol rangers

the only skills that prevent me from wiping your team in 2 minutes are these

weapon of warding
blind
stances

the problem is that physical damage is too strong, which makes skills like rend and rigor mortis (and blind removals to a lesser degree)better than they would otherwise be because they are direct counters to the only defenses that teams have available to them atm.

You have to remember that Kaon talks about BYOB situations and BYOB situations only.

Thats also huge problem when he calls out that shit like Lingering Curse isnt overpowered. And no, single PnH/Expel cant cut that shit off.

But I still dont get how Kaon thinks that warriors back in prophecies dealt alot more damage. Who the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO cares about single eviscerate damage being higher when with Primal Rage you neglect one of the most skill rewarding things in game, kiting. If you try to kite against primal rage warrior, you just end up getting autocritted all the time, and in overall, this does stack alot more up than your 20-30 eviscerates used per game.

I Jonas I · Mar 03, 2009, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Pew Pew rangers need a nerf badly. What more proof do you need than this:

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i7...hots/gw407.jpg

http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i7...hots/gw408.jpg

Krill · Mar 03, 2009, 02:36 PM // 14:36

PnH is a terrible skill, but without it hex pressure would be so incredibly retarded...imagine how powerful builds with VoR, LC, Soul Bind and / or Weaken Knees would be without the PnH counter. Even against PnH hex builds do quite well, pretty sure dP and Wipe both ran VoR + 2 necros in the mAT.

xDementia · Mar 03, 2009, 02:39 PM // 14:39

In response to Kaon,

You keep saying warriors have only been slightly buffed. Please take a look at old hammer warriors with frenzy/rush instead of flail/enraging charge and show us how it is only a slight buff. Sword bars have become a lot better as well. Now if you compared old axe templates with old gale, exhaustion swapping bug and old imba eviscerate that used to be autocritical dmg if my memory serves me well, then you're right the current axe template is only slightly stronger.

Now you are talking about shitty old guardian and how fragile boon prots were... maybe you need to be reminded old guardian used to be 5 secs unscaled duration, 2s recharge, scaled block around 40% with 10-11 prot. While it's true it's 2 seconds less duration and 10% less block, it recharges twice as fast. Boon prots could pack distortion and/or contemplation of purity which had a huge synergy with old boon that had a super low recharge, mantra of recall at some point and that made him pretty much immune to a lot of things.

You're right most hexes back then had longer durations but that's not the point. It's all about the quantity of playable hexes that have a strong crippling effect that are vital for a team to remove. There are more now because there are more skills in the game/powercreep. Good thing teams can only pack a very limited amount of them. Now if you really want to win the argument we could talk about the old diversion and how imba it was.

Regarding conditions, I agree with you condition pressure and rc can't cohexist. Don't you think every team having to run a rc because they are so afraid of how easy it is to inflict conditions today compared to the old days only proves how strong they really are right now?

On a side note, distortion was a lot more interesting than the current set of stances because people had to sacrifice a lot more to use it even with smart weapon switching.

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 03, 2009, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDementia

Regarding conditions, I agree with you condition pressure and rc can't cohexist. Don't you think every team having to run a rc because they are so afraid of how easy it is to inflict conditions today compared to the old days only proves how strong they really are right now?

They have before, it's just now obtaining Party heals are easier and cheaper over old heal party, now pretty much any midliner can take a POT and keep its power creep-ed template, where as before you were pretty much limited to sacking two slots for heal party+glyph lesser and the character choice was limited to eles, less dmg on those templates and ele spells overall much more prone to interrupts.

I'd say right now in the meta there's a spot in which condition pressure could make a comeback, because hexes are at the level of power they are, and the need to still pack pnh or else you auto lose to hexes, could make that style of play fit right in. You'd still have to eliminate those damn spirits, maybe even tone down POTs healing points and increase its cast time. Things like foul feast need to be hit though also, and you could actually force build wars even more with Monk Elites mattering much more PnH/RC, and how much party healing you choose to take.

Kaon · Mar 03, 2009, 06:24 PM // 18:24

It appears that first of all i must eliminate a myth from this world. The myth that boonprots were extremely powerful and almost as powerful was what we have now. As i will now demonstrate this is absolutely ridiculous.

Even in that time, WoH monks and Rc monks were still used. Some guilds would use them because they could handle e-denial better, but they were also used en masse in tombs and in 3 monks builds (= iB build). Woh monks back then were about as powerful as boonprots, only they would have slightly less self survivability and get raped by shame and interrupts. Hence boonprots were a bit safer and therefore more popular. If you were going to replace your boonprots anyway some teams would take an rc prot and i wohmonk, for the prot the same rules apply as the wohmonk.

So we have established that boonprots were about just as powerful as old wohmonks. Or better put: a 1woh 1rc monk backline was just as powerful (against pressure even better) as a 2boonprot backline (who were better on their own and against spikes).

Now all i have to do is prove that the current 1woh 1rc backline is more powerful than the old one. I shall put forward this list of skills:

WoH is twice as good as it used to be. Currently the most overpowered skill in the game.
Guardian lasts 50% longer and blocks 20% more attacks. so its like 75% better than its old version.
Spirit bond is retardedly powerful this skill makes you invincible to any damage above 60.
Patient spirit allows the woh to have an extra heal
current warrior stances are much better than old distortion, in fact most monks didnt bring distortion but like old gole, because distortion was just bad on a monk.
hex removal has improved incredibly.

Therefore current monkline >> old monkline. And since old monkline == boonprots current monkline >> boonprots.

CURRENT MONK BACKLINE IS SOOOOO MUCH MORE POWERFUL THAN BOONPROTS EVER WERE.

I could prove this another way around by saying this: Boonprots at a moment got replaced by blessed light monks, because they could run assassin stances. It is obvious that our current backline is many times more powerful than blessed light monks, therefore current backline>>>> boonprots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDementia

You keep saying warriors have only been slightly buffed. Please take a look at old hammer warriors with frenzy/rush instead of flail/enraging charge and show us how it is only a slight buff. Sword bars have become a lot better as well. Now if you compared old axe templates with old gale, exhaustion swapping bug and old imba eviscerate that used to be autocritical dmg if my memory serves me well, then you're right the current axe template is only slightly stronger.

You basically say it yourself at the end. But another reason why i call it a slight buff is because when you compare it to the monks that got twice as good the warrior buff is practically non-existant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDementia

Now you are talking about shitty old guardian and how fragile boon prots were... maybe you need to be reminded old guardian used to be 5 secs unscaled duration, 2s recharge, scaled block around 40% with 10-11 prot. While it's true it's 2 seconds less duration and 10% less block, it recharges twice as fast. Boon prots could pack distortion and/or contemplation of purity which had a huge synergy with old boon that had a super low recharge, mantra of recall at some point and that made him pretty much immune to a lot of things.

It's duration is 2 seconds less, with enchantment mod that is 3 second less. the block was 38% or 42% depending on your attributes. If you do the math behind it you'll notice the new guardian really blocks almost 70-80% more, not to mention it requires less spec. As i said boonprots had one major advantage and that was their invulnerability to shame (although cop and boon to rid it cost you valuable energy) and their their great self survivability. Current monks have lost the first advantage but are much better at surviving and powerhealing. Besides shame got nerfed and gets interrupted quite easily now anyways.

Distortion was only very rarely run on monks, because it just wasn't that good, except against a ranger or adrenalinespike build. The stance itsself was 5 energy and then every attack would tick 3 more off. It's more economical to just heal yourself up. Next to the fact that this cost a valuable skill slot.

On conditions I would like to say this: Because boonprots aren't run anymore, people run rc, which means conditions get removed easier than before. This means that the cripshot with poison cover gets removed with 1 spell and that blinding flash doesn't get covered with poison doesn't do much either. I think it's a sad thing but not something to be dramatic about. What is interesting to note though is that instead of nerfing rc or putting boonprots back, what izzy did to make conditions better was just buffing condition skills like bsurge. A perfect example of izzy's retardation of how everything has become exponentially more powerful, ultimately destroying the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

PnH is a terrible skill, but without it hex pressure would be so incredibly retarded...imagine how powerful builds with VoR, LC, Soul Bind and / or Weaken Knees would be without the PnH counter. Even against PnH hex builds do quite well, pretty sure dP and Wipe both ran VoR + 2 necros in the mAT.

We did well against those builds before pnh as well didn't we? And if those skills are the problem then FIX THOSE SKILLS. Do not buff defense because it hurts the entire game.

Quote:

But I still dont get how Kaon thinks that warriors back in prophecies dealt alot more damage. Who the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO cares about single eviscerate damage being higher when with Primal Rage you neglect one of the most skill rewarding things in game, kiting. If you try to kite against primal rage warrior, you just end up getting autocritted all the time, and in overall, this does stack alot more up than your 20-30 eviscerates used per game.

Warriors dealt more damage because: Less (powerful) stances, weaker midline, and there was barely aegis anyway. You could literally sit on someones face and crack him especially if your ranger cripshot him. Zealous weapons would give mad energy because you'd hit so much. Right now zealous barely gives any energy bonus.

Back then there were only 3 things which could protect you from dying:

distortion if you had it.
prot spirit
guardian.

This means you could really train down a target because there was no way for the opponent to make it invincible yes you would deal only 50-40% of your maximum damage, but that could still be enough to crack the important target. Right now if everyone focuses on the same target, guardian, weapon of warding, and spirit bond will reduce the damage to not even 10%. There literally is the ability to make someone godmode.

pah01 · Mar 03, 2009, 06:29 PM // 18:29

You guys don't remember anything.

Warriors did do more damage now than then. This isnt saying that Primal Rage wouldnt have been broken as RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO back then tho, Primal Rage is retarded now, back then it would have been beyond broken.{even tho gale would have reduced the need for super IMS a fair amount}

Why? Gale locked people in place and you could frenzy at will. Cripshot @ 10 energy back then was considered broken and now its not even played. Everything that prevents warrior damage now is much more powerful than it was in those days.

Blinding Flash + guardian in those days was much much less than what defence is today.

So please stop talking out of your asses and listen to someone who was good back then.

Joe

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 03, 2009, 06:46 PM // 18:46

There's still no comparison to boon prot meta and todays monks and overall power state.

Back in the boon prot days, you had less dmg across the board, skills that took time to build such as evis axe warriors, and a midline that without a doubt packed absolutely no dmg compared to todays midline. Rangers did no dmg back then, now they tear your ass apart and arrows move twice as fast. Kiting mattered a shit ton more then also.

Back then any kind of pressure-spike was created by galing off target boon prot, spiking the other, and using tons of E-denial. 2xwar
ranger with no dmg
dual mes or mes+ele with b flash 2x snares, heal party

Back then in my eyes Defense>Offense, just like how you're are claiming things today are KAON, except back then creating prime killing windows were much smaller and easier to see coming. Boon prots pretty much powered bars to full using the correct 2 skills during a circumstance, COP made certain mesmer skills laughable, and frontline still has to avoid, ward melee, b flash, ice spikes, shard storm, and the need to build and have targets kded for anything to happen.

Your ultimately just down-playing your own train of thought and argument that defense is stronger than offense, when the reality is todays dmg is out of whack and as a result you have OP b surge and OP monks as a result. Tone the damn dmg back, then start fiddling with defense. Then again who gives a shit, we have what a 2 person LIVE team that is working on increased storage space and HOM for the PVE'ers, good luck getting anykind of sizable balance, and good luck on getting the dev team to hit the right skills.

scruffy · Mar 03, 2009, 07:24 PM // 19:24

kaon you keep saying that monks are stronger now than they were back then, if that's the case why is it that monks nowadays have almost no say in the equasion of what lives or dies and they rely on stances and blinds and weapon of warding to keep the team alive

i know the answer, i'm just trying to see if you will admit it

oh and btw i've been playing since beta(not that i need to justify myself to you)

incase you are still wondering what the reason is : larger amounts of damage can be compressed into smaller and faster packets than the game has ever seen before

conjure
hundred blades
strength of honor
judges insight
(the previous four may or may not be stacked with sun and moon slash)
mirror of ice
ancestors rage
distracting strike
1s activation bow attacks
shell shock
and the list goes on

so as i was saying earlier, the problem is that people need to compensate for the retarded amounts of damage that teams can do on a regular basis by bringing a bunch of defensive casters(which also have damage compression problems, funnily enough)

there really isnt much defense at all compared to the tools you have to achieve kills, in fact defense is so laughable that the worst thing that can happen to me in-game is my crushing blow gets dshotted(which i suggest more rangers to do since its not exactly hard to do, and is extremely effective)

Snow Bunny · Mar 03, 2009, 08:29 PM // 20:29

Ok, so bring back boonprots.

But why does PnH have to die so badly?

Don't get aggressive Kaon, think about it -

This is a meta where hexes are easily counterable by PnH. Conditions are as well, but spiking offense is strong enough that conditions are almost unnecessary, aside from DW. Hexes are horrible to play against, and I'd rather have a skill that insta-counters them than have to play against hexway.

It's power creep against power creep, but I'd rather have both hexes & pnh nerfed together as opposed to simply pnh.

Nerf offense and enough defense to kill the fast casting water mesmer. I think bringing back water eles, proper rangers, and dom mesmers would be really good for the game.

I agree with your other points, just not pnh.

zling · Mar 03, 2009, 08:29 PM // 20:29

you guys are still missing a MAJOR issue, runes!
back in the old days everyone and their mother ran superior runes(well everyone besides monks that is) now nobody runs them at all, even in PvE(excluding farmers here)!!!
spiking down targets with 600+ hp is a lot harder than targets with 400+ hp, remember that.
oh and remember that superior absorption runes were more expensive than even ectos? who cares about them nowadays...?

so, inorder to fix the current baed aess meta you gotta assess the problems correctly:
too strong offense->
which leads to->
more room on most skill bars->
which leads to->
massive amounts of defense->
as well as->
nobody running superior runes thus everybody has ~600 hp->
which leads to->
overpowered offense not strong enough to get kills->
which leads to->
rawr spike->
which leads to->
stale meta and everybody whining about rawr :\
and there's always the ongoing issue of vets leaving->skill reduced->moar buildwars

so, now that we've identified the root of the problem we need to find solutions, right?
so, here is a simple yet elegant way to fix this b**ls**t meta:
1. tone down all(or at least most) damage skills by around 20-30%
2. buff attribute bonus for 12-16 range.

both of these changes should make superior runes worthy again.

3. scale *all* primary attribute skills properly, so they cant be run efficiently on secondaries.
4. buff underpowered primaries to supplement their class in a better way while limiting their use as secondaries.

this change will nerf the most complained about template, turret ranger, as well as a few others. it will also limit hybrids in general and gimmick off class builds such as R/W thumper, R/D scyther, R/P spear chucker, W/P spear chucker, W/D scyther, A/D scyther, FC nuker, FC hexer, Ele healer, etc

5. nerf off class speed boosts, by either toning them down or giving more severe penalties when running off class.
6. nerf speed boosts that can be constantly maintained with relative ease.

this will mostly hit overpowered flag running builds, mainly the Rit/A and the older Rit/D variants but also others like Mo/X flaggers. however some of these builds will remain viable, just weaker, and there will still be other options, mainly Ele/x but also perhaps more offensive minded runners like Rangers and Warriors? yes they'll need to drop the flag while fighting but this could add some more tactics to flag running and splitting...
it will also make kiting viable again, yes [primal rage] is the main skill I was looking at for #6 but it's not the only problematic IMS, [storm djinn's haste][flame djinn's haste] and [signet of mystic speed] are other such examples.

7. nerf a lot of uber fast casting spells, mainly but not limited to hexes. as well as a complete hex overhaul. these need to remain viable but not as overpowered as some of them are now, mainly [lingering curse][rigor mortis][pain of disenchantment] and the like...
8. nerf some of the interrupts, mainly crap like [magebane shot] which rarely sees daylight now only because of [burning arrow] and [melandru's shot] turrets. but also tone down the mesmer interrupts, mainly those with 12 second recharge.
note that it will also affect the monk's defensive spells, be it hex removals such as [peace and harmony] and the uber [spirit bond] and *newly*(compared to the old days) buffed [guardian] and [word of healing] as well as some other skills.

these changes will hopefuly bring back the importance of SMART interrupting. a lot more spells to interrupt while less harm done by each interrupt(talking about the side effects here).

a side effect of this is that spikes in general will be harder to pull off, cause all those fast spells, be it caster spikes or support spells like [rigor mortis] and [rend enchantments] won't be as fast any more, therefore easier to shut down(interrupt). it will also bring back real mesmers to GvG not these FC water eles, as fast casting will suddenly be crucial.

9. rework all 4 expansion classes. right now the only expansion class that sees regular play is the ritualist, and that is due to it's overpowered hybrid ability and long range spirits.
10. perhaps limit the number of skills usable by a secondary profession.

these changes will again hit off class builds as mentioned earlier, and will hopefuly create a niche for every class. not sure how exactly to rework these classes, nor do I think it's very realistic(yes a huge understatement, I know) so I'll just leave it at that. maybe they will at least do it right in GW2, but again I doubt it...

***edit***
after this long post I forgot to include the bottom line

so, the bottom line for all these proposed changes is as I expect most of you understood by now is to weaken the skill bars in general and strengthen actual player skill. this will cause things like positioning, kiting, splitting, timing pushes, timed retreats, etc will become even more important not to mention powerful. it will also bring back all types of builds to validity, the 3 build archetypes I have in mind here are spike, pressure and shutdown. right now it's only spike, or mainly rawr spike+alternatives/counters...

Kaon · Mar 03, 2009, 10:25 PM // 22:25

I did put runes in my original post. Oh and scruffy i never said all those overpowered shit shouldn't be nerfed, but nerfing them now without touching defense is just retarded.

Hundbert · Mar 03, 2009, 11:36 PM // 23:36

I'm just curious why shield bash is on some people's nerf lists?

Did it suddenly become super strong? As far as i can remember it hasn't changed much over the past years

Puebert · Mar 04, 2009, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hundbert

I'm just curious why shield bash is on some people's nerf lists?

Did it suddenly become super strong? As far as i can remember it hasn't changed much over the past years

Powercreep.

Its always been good, but now cause of the meta, its great.

Apok Omen · Mar 04, 2009, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

I did put runes in my original post. Oh and scruffy i never said all those overpowered shit shouldn't be nerfed, but nerfing them now without touching defense is just retarded.

I believe this is false logic. If you nerf offense and keep defense the way it is, then it would result in a few more slots being used for shutdown instead of defense/party heals. In a "nerfing defense/buffing offense" situation, however, more slots will be used for defense instead of offense/shutdown in order to keep up with the other team's damage while pumping out your own.

Unfortunately, Izzy made a huge mistake in shifting the metagame. As previously and nostagically mentioned, boonprots were able to aleviate only some of the pressure and had to really on the midline to help them out (BFlash/HP spam from Eprod Eles, Blackout from Me/x and x/Me, Cripshot) All these templates were able to shutdown the only threatening offense on the opposing team: Warriors. The only midline damage that was used was Eburn+Esurge+Shatter from Messes and LOrb from Eles, and those were used as spike-assists. And for some reason or another, Izzy thought that the game ha too much defense. And he was right, but this was dealt with by appropriate, match-ending shutdown.

However, he possibly thought that the meta was growing stale and needed a power-shift(creep). And voila! (I think we have all experienced this memory of NF enough)

In this more fastpaced meta, monks are dependant upon midliners more than ever. And with interrupts (which is a form of shutdown that has to have a long recharge) becoming more popular with the recharges of most of them being decreased (which is a result of the community asking for buffs to their precious interrupts), bringing GoLE+Aegis is more of a risk than bringing stances. So, shutting down monks, which was supposed to be a difficult-yet-matchending strategy, has become even more difficult with less reward.

In conclusion, nerf offense, nerf recharge on previously buffed Mesmer interrupts (PB, Powerleak [revert energy loss effect back to its original form after nerfing recharge], Pdrain, etc.), THEN work on defense.

scruffy · Mar 04, 2009, 05:44 AM // 05:44

stance monks are actually weaker to shutdown because they dedicate their second profession to resisting melee rather than casters

but who in their right mind is gonna run an energy denial build when you can just take a turret, rend and rigor mortis and gunshot people down every 8 seconds

Apok Omen · Mar 04, 2009, 07:14 AM // 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

stance monks are actually weaker to shutdown because they dedicate their second profession to resisting melee rather than casters

but who in their right mind is gonna run an energy denial build when you can just take a turret, rend and rigor mortis and gunshot people down every 8 seconds

Exactly, but that is because death is the best form of shut down

Once offense is nerfed accordingly, however, shutdown will have a greater meaning than now. Also, stance monks are ran for the sole purpose of negating sheer physical damage when getting spiked. Rend+rigor is just plain unfortunate and, as I and many others have stated, should be looked at.

The main point of shutdown is to make it count, not spam it on recharge (interrupts/strips). And shutdown has to be counterable by the target chosen to be shut down (energy hiding, waiting out shame/diversion [or remove them with pre-veil]...) Spamming interrupts and strips just punishes them while they are preparing their defense.

tigros · Mar 04, 2009, 08:32 AM // 08:32

You guys should probably write a history of Guild Wars

.

It's funny to see how many people live in the past and how few actually look at the future as future, not as a mirror of the past...

In a case of natural disaster you would probably whine about the old better days and die because of your inability to adapt to change...

But keep at it, it's entertaining

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