Curse

Raul the Rampant · Mar 01, 2009, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

I think most people agree that not only is Primal Rage very strong, the mechanic is very bad for the game in a number of ways. Kiting, positioning, quarter stepping, split play and effective Frenzy/Rush management are all damaged by Primal Rage being in the game.

The mechanics behind Primal Rage have been in the game from the start via frenzy and rush; neither of those is new. Fortunately the double damage penalty that is currently there provides some hope for fixing it before it does too much more damage. If you use it wrong (like not cancelling it) a good team will still stomp your face in; the same applies if you overextend and get snared. Even so, I'm not arguing that it's not overpowered as it currently is (because it is); I am simply saying that making the IAS and movement boosts low enough that they become useless is not the way I would address it.

As for game mechanics that make tactical sense irrelevant... shadow stepping was a new mechanic that made all of those concepts less relevant. Weapons spells that provided blocking/regen/heals that have no way of being removed were a new mechanic that made all of those concepts less relevant. Layer upon layer upon layer upon layer of passive defenses provided by paragon shouts made all those concepts less relevant. The stupidly high damage and auto-crits against moving targets that a scythe can pump out was a new mechanic that made all of those concepts less relevant. These are the reasons overpowered crap like Primal Rage and RaO come into being; once these other mechanics were brought in it became necessary to fight fire with fire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

Why should defensive stances in tactics become more viable for warriors? What interesting changes would that bring to the game?

Why shouldn't they be viable for warriors? Maybe it would open up some new ideas for splits or something. We can change them and see if people find a use for them or keep posting on here about how the meta is stale and boring. I already pointed out how the duration changes would make them essentially useless in even the roles they currently have... if that's what is desired then go ahead and [Smiter's Boon] them. I see an attribute line that doesn't get used and I'd like to fix that if possible; apparently we disagree in that regard, which is fine.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

In the past, when people wanted to pressure, they would spread poison using savage shot in between normal attacks. This had several downsides, it was energy intensive to do for a long time, and it meant your interrupt might be recharging when you needed it. Hunter's shot is much more effective in pretty much every single way. I don't think this level of powercreep is good for the game.

Taking the unconditional bonus damage away from Hunter's Shot then makes it a slower recharging, more easily dodged (non-elite) version of [Quick Shot]. A straight attack (not a skill) would then provide the same benefit against a stationary (casting/attacking) target as Hunter's would. Adjust the energy cost then to compensate for the conditional damage and bleeding if it's that much of a problem. Or give Quick Shot another minor perk. I just feel that Hunter's and Melandru's were intended to be used against kiting foes or adding a little extra kick to a hammer spike (not to a turret level, but not irrelevant either), and would prefer if they still remained viable in that sense.

Xerum · Mar 01, 2009, 03:36 AM // 03:36

I want to see entire line of skills removed from each profession.
Warrior-tactics, Rangers-beast mastery, Necromancer-blood, Mesmer-illusion, Monk-smiting, Elementalist-earth, Assassin-deadly or shadow, Ritualist-communing, Dervish-earth, Paragon-motivation.

Eliminate those with possibility of moving 1-3 skills to other attribute line. Month after balance remaining skills.

Razz L Dazzle · Mar 01, 2009, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Since its a wishlist:

Warrior: even with KD clause a few of the stances would still need fixing
"Stances can no longer be activated while Knocked down"
Primal Rage: reduce duration 10 seconds @ 13 strength
MageHunter Smash: KD and does +18 dmg while enchanted..Elminate unblockable KD while enchanted.
Steelfang slash- remove the recharge

Mesmers:
"Fast casting affects mesmer skills only"
Power Leak 10 1/4 12 ... target foe loses -10 energy @ 14 spec domination
Energy surge/ burn 10 2 20... target foe loses -10 energy @ 14 rather than 15.

Necromancer:
Soul reaping- For each necromancer hex you complete you gain +1....3 energy in return
For each successful minion you create you gain +4...7 energy
in return.
Spec @ 2 +1 energy
Spec @ 5 +2 energy
Spec @ 8 +3 energy
Spec 11 and above +4 energy
Lingering Curse 10 nrg 1 cast 10 recharge....25% less healing
Foul Feast 3/4 cast
Rip Enchantment 5 nrg 1 cast 15 recharge
Enfeeble 5 nrg 3/4 cast 5 recharge ...last 12 seconds at 14 curse.
Rigor Mortis- For X seconds target foe cannot block melee attacks.
Mark of Subversion 10 nrg 1 cast 25 recharge
Reckless Haste- 10 nrg 1 cast 12 recharge...Same and change Foe attacks 15% faster. Curses blurred vision
Faintheartedness- 33% slower attack speed
Gaze of Contempt: Change to.. Remove all non- monk enchantments
Rend Enchantments:
@ 1-3 curses foe loses 1 enchantment and you lose 100-75 health
@ 4-7 curse foe loses 1 enchantment and you lose 70-55 health
@ 8-11 foe loses 2 enchantments and you lose 50-38 health per
strip
@ 12-16 foe loses 2 enchantments and you lose 35-27 health

Elementalist:

Air
Gale 10 nrg 1 cast 8 recharge.... 3 second KD
Windborne speed 10 energy 1/4 cast 5 recharge.....@14 Air lasts 8 seconds

Water
Water trident- 5 nrg 3/4 cast 4 recharge.... also does 1...3 seconds of burning.
Icy shackles- revert to previous form

Monk:
Castigation signet: 20 second recharge lower dmg. @12 smite 25 dmg
Strength of Honor: physical melee attacks do +11 dmg at 12 smite.
Peace and Harmony: 5 nrg 3/4 cast 7 recharge
Smite Hex/ Condition: Nearby foes Lower dmg slightly

Ranger: Nerf the turret and super condi spread.
Burning Arrow 10 nrg 5 recharge.... max 5 second burn reached at 10 marks... + dmg scales +10 @ 10 marks..... +14 @ 14 marks
Read the wind- + 4-8 Piercing damage
Hunters- 5 nrg 5 recharge - Unconditional bleed.. +dmg while KD'd or moving.
Mel shot- 5 nrg 8 recharge- Unconditional beed... +dmg and cripple while KD or moving
Debilitating shot- 10 nrg 8 rechage....-8 nrg @ 10 marks
Punishing shot- 10 1/2 8 recharge...Foe is interrupted ..causes exhaustion if it interrupts a spells
Keen Arrow and Sloth hunter's-- remove the first + dmg and keep the conditional damage. Don't like the idea of double armor ignoring + dmg.

Ritualist:
Resilient weapon ... reduce duration by 3-4 seconds at high spec
Caretakers.... 5 nrg 1 cast 6 recharge...remove the you gain health condition
Recuperation... lasts max 15 seconds.

Paragon: I'd like to see Aggressive refrain be used more the way a ranger enters a battle up puts up his preparation

Paragon has 65 base armor

Aggressive Refrain-- 10 energy 1 cast 12 recharge.... lasts max of 11 seconds at 10 leadership renews on end of chant or shout. No cracked armor.
Anthem of Flame - Shout lasts 15 seconds...1...2 seconds of burning on attack skill 5 energy 8 second recharge ends on attack skill
Antem of Weariness- chant lasts 12 seconds... still has 1 second cast
"Go for the Eyes"- get rid of recharge
"Lead the way"- Shout 5 energy 10 recharge....ally moves 25% faster for 4-7 seconds.
Disrupting throw- unblockable.

Ex Death · Mar 01, 2009, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

That's only really the case if certain defensive options are strictly better than the current ones, and make defense stronger in spite of the other defensive nerfs suggested. For example, the new Ward I proposed would fit fairly well on a B-Surge, but to fit on the current B-Surge template, it would need to drop Warding and Kaolai, which can be stronger in split situations, and are still powerful 8vs8.

Assuming your proposed change to ward against melee did infact replace kaolai + warding on bsurges, surely that would mean that this defensive option would be better? If it wasn't better than the current kaolai + warding what would be the point in buffing it in the first place? I don't really understand your motives for adding more defense to the game. Is it just for more variety? It certainly wouldn't be for the fun factor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

Also, there are still plenty of ways to make running multiple party heals unattractive, long cast times really hurt their viability at flagstand and push them onto runners for example.

This is probably one of the biggest issues at the moment. The fact that we have these powerful 1 second cast time, quick recharging monk party heals (divine healing x2, LoD) means that they can be slotted on midliners with little to no threat of disruption. If we want pressure to exist we need every single party heal in the game to be at least a 2 second cast time so that they are only viable on flag runners.

pah01 · Mar 01, 2009, 06:57 PM // 18:57

This thread has actually turned out alright with a couple of great ideas.

There is something that has been said recently that needs to be understood however by those making the forum posts. When skills are strong the player skill is less important and vice-versa.

Almost all of the problems in this game have stemmed from the developers(read Izzy) releasing or buffing skills to silly power levels. So the best thing to do for at least 2-3 months would be to nerf quite a lot without smiters booning/ether renewaling a skill.

Some of the important issues have already been pointed out.

Robster Lobster got most of the important issues exactly right in his post.

[Primal Rage]

Best Idea so far was to make this an IMS version of Battle Rage.

The only thing I disagree with him on is the nerf to the cast time of [PwK].
The reason is that the game needs to settle first before you start to fiddle with party healing.

Stances

I am against tinkering with these before the issues with turrets/rend are sorted.

Other damage compression problems

1. Distracting strike.
2. Rit caretakers and ancestors rage need looking at.

Joe

Apok Omen · Mar 01, 2009, 08:06 PM // 20:06

I think the problem with these threads is not that they are not intellegent or conclusive enough, but that they need the proper advertising. So, let me be the first to use the most attentive advertisement in the history of man:

S E X !

That is all, for now.

Master Ketsu · Mar 01, 2009, 10:44 PM // 22:44

I am sick today, and its a Sunday, which means I have assloads of time right now so...

General Nerfs:

[read the wind] -fix the bug.
[flail] - 3 seconds at zero strength.
[hunters shot] - scale down the damage by 25%.
[wounding strike] - 4 second recharge. Deals 50% less damage if it hits a foe already suffering from a condition.
[palm strike] - 6 second recharge
[word of healing] - scale down the non conditional heal amount by 50%. Increase the conditional heal amount by 33%.
[Peace and harmony] - Max 4 hexes and conditions, reduce recharge to 5, increase cast time to 3/4.
[foul feast] - 3/4 cast time.
[Wail of doom] - 3/4 cast time.
[plague sending]- 5 energy.
[visions of regret] - expires 25% faster if it hits a foe already suffering from a hex or condition. Change to "Undertow Type A" ( See Below )
[primal rage] - 25% IMS and 20% IAS. Take 33% more damage as opposed to double.
[shield bash] - Only disables the attack skill if it is successfully blocked. Knockdown still occurs regardless.
[lingering curse]- Takes 150% longer to recharge if it only hits 1 target.
[defile defenses]- Change to "Undertow Type A" ( See Below )
[death blossom]- scale + damage down 20% ( does not effect AOE damage )
[crushing blow]- scale + damage down 20%
[Blades of Steel]- scale + damage down 20%
[Moebius Strike]- scale + damage down 20%
[Falling Spider]- scale + damage down 20%
[falling lotus strike]- scale + damage down 20%

Skill moves:

[parasitic bond] - Move to blood.
[Feast of Corruption] - Move to Death.
[insidious parasite] - Move to blood.
[foul feast] - Move to blood.
[Recall] - Move to critical strikes. 50% failure chance 4 or less.
[wastrel's collapse]- Move to critical strikes. 50% failure chance 4 or less.
[aura of displacement]- Move to critical strikes. 50% failure chance 4 or less.
[Shadow Meld]- Move to critical strikes. 50% failure chance 4 or less.
[shadow walk]- Move to critical strikes. 50% failure chance 4 or less.

General Buffs:

[siphon speed] - decrease cast time to 1/4, reduce recharge to 18.
[Quick shot] - Unblockable
[life sheath] - Heals FOR X amount of health upon hit, as apposed to UP TO.
[Divine boon] - Return to Pre-nerf functionality ( while this build was broked in the meta of long long ago, the power creep that has occured since then should allow for this build to return and not be OP anymore )
[Mantra of recall]- Return to Pre-nerf functionality.
[withdraw hexes]- Remove the additional recharge time. 50% failure chances with Divine favor 4 or less.
[horns of the Ox] - deals an additional +5...25 damage if your target was moving. ( obviously would only effect first strike )
[black lotus strike] - return to Off hand status
[punishing shot] - Remove the + damage. Dazes for 1...5 seconds if it interrupts a spell, and blinds for 1...5 seconds if it interrupts a skill that is not a spell.
[guardian]- 3 second recharge
[incendiary arrows]- 4 second recharge
[chaos storm]- Adjacent -> Nearby
[Elemental Resistance]- Scale down the negative physical armor by 40%.
[physical resistance]- Scale down the negative elemental armor by 40%.
[power flux] -5 energy
[simple thievery]- Your rank in the stolen skill is equal to your rank in domination magic ( Max 12 )
[flare]- Deals 20...64...75 fire damage.
[Lava Arrows]- Deals 20...64...75 fire damage.
[Lift Enchantment]- Removes 1...2 enchantments.
[Enduring Toxin]- 2...5...7 degen
[Mark of Death]- Recharges 75% faster if target was using a skill.
[Sadists signet]- 4 second recharge
[Golden Skull Strike]- 1/2 attack time. 5 energy, 5 second recharge. Fails if your target is not using a skill.
[Way of the Fox]- recharges instantly if any foe adjacent to your location dies while you are enchanted.

Functionality changes that are neither buffs or nerfs:
( These are mainly designed to change these skills in such a way as to increase the amount of player skill needed to use them effectively, without screwing them too much )

[Shadow Fang]- 15 energy, 20 second recharge. Add Condition: No effect if your target is not using a skill.
[shadow prison]- 5 energy, 15 second recharge. Add Condition: No effect if your target is not using a skill.
[Dark Prison]- 10 energy, 20 second recharge. Add Condition: No effect if your target is not using a skill.
[deaths charge]- 18 second recharge. Add Condition: No effect if you are above 60% health.
[shadow walk]- remove attack skill disable time. 10 second recharge. Add Condition: ends prematurely if you take damage.
[beguiling haze]- energy: 10, recharge: 12, Add Condition: No effect if your target is not using a skill.
[aura of displacement]- 5 energy, 30 second recharge. "this skill recharges instantly if your target was casting an enchantment spell"
[atrophy]- 15 energy. Lasts 33% longer if your target was moving.
[blessed light] - 5 energy. Lose 9....3 energy if it removes a hex.
[Conjure phantasm]- Costs 5 Less energy. Change functionality to "Undertow Type A" ( See Below )
[conjure nightmare]- Costs 10 Less energy. Change functionality to "Undertow Type A" ( See Below )
[Backfire]- Costs 5 Less energy and recharges 25% faster. 2 second cast time. Change functionality to "Undertow Type A" ( See Below )
[barbs]- 1 second cast time. Change to "Undertow Type A" ( See Below )
[Faintheartedness]- 5 second recharge, 5 energy, lasts 1...6 seconds. "This skill refreshes every time target hexed foe uses an attack skill" Change to "Undertow Type B" ( See Below )
[empathy]- 4 second recharge, 5 energy, lasts 1...6 seconds. "This skill refreshes every time target hexed foe uses an attack skill" Change to "Undertow Type B" ( See Below )
[Insidious Parasite]- Costs 10 energy. Change to "Undertow Type B" ( See Below )
[Blurred vision]- Recharges 25% faster. Change to "Undertow Type B" ( See Below )
[ice spikes]- Recharges 25% faster. Change to "Undertow Type B" ( See Below )
[deep freeze]-Costs 15 energy. Change to "Undertow Type B" ( See Below )
[disrupting stab]- Changed to generic dagger attack. Counts as an Off hand attack if it interrupts a skill.
[fox fangs]- Change to generic dagger attack. Remove + damage. Add functionality "If you strike a foe that is using a skill, all your other dagger attacks are recharged"
[Expose Defenses]- 10 second recharge. Change functionality to "Undertow Type A" ( See Below )
[Siphon Strength]- 3 second recharge. Change to "Undertow Type B" ( See Below )
[repeating strike]- Changed to generic dagger attack. Removed disable time. Counts as a lead attack and is disabled for 5 seconds if it hits a foe that is using a skill.
[Shadowy Burden]- 5 energy, 5 second recharge. Change to "Undertow Type B" ( See Below )
[Shameful fear]- 5 energy, 5 second recharge. 1 second cast. Change to "Undertow Type B" ( See Below )
[Amity]- 10 second recharge. For 1...3 seconds foes adjacent to your location cannot attack. This hex renews itself if its target is moving when it ends. ( PVP ONLY )
[Zealous Benediction] -"You gain 12 energy if your target was below 33% health"
[Feast of Corruption] - 10 energy, 8 recharge,. 1 second cast. Change to "Undertow Type B" ( See Below )
[Reckless Haste]- 5 energy, 8 recharge lasts 1..4 seconds. "This hex renews itself every time target hexed foe uses an attack skill".
[Rend enchantments]- 3/4 cast time. Change to "Undertow Type B" ( See Below )
[Shadow of Fear]- 10 energy, 3 recharge lasts 1...5 seconds. "This hex renews itself every time target hexed foe uses an attack skill".

Engine Functionality changes

AOE damage - Cannot overlap duplicates of the same skill from the same team. Attempted Overlaps cause both to be canceled/instantly ended. (

)

Shadowsteps - Remove aftercast ( read all my nerfs to shadowsteps to find out why )

"Undertow Type A" - "For 1 second this does nothing. if target foe is Not moving after 1 second that foe is *Insert original functionality of skill here* otherwise, the skill fails."

"Undertow Type B" - "For 1 second this does nothing. if target foe is moving after 1 second that foe is *Insert original functionality of skill here* otherwise, the skill fails."

For type A a Red Lock on Symbol would appear as a status Icon. Blue for type B.

Note that Undertow does not change the skill type from Hex or enchantment or whatever once the *original functionality* sets in motion, it just changes how the skill can be avoided in a way that forces players to pay more attention to the screen and less attention to skillbars. It also does not stack, meaning no spiking can be done with any skill that has it.

Flame away.

Apok Omen · Mar 01, 2009, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

I am sick today, and its a Sunday, which means I have assloads of time right now so...

General Nerfs:

[read the wind] -Couldn't agree more
[flail] - Wouldn't change anything; still allows time to complete spike
[hunters shot] - It's not just the added dmg, it's the fact that it is cheap and fast
[wounding strike] - The real problem is the enchantments being put on Dervs, not the conditions.
[palm strike] - Couldn't agree more
[word of healing] - Meh
[Peace and harmony] - It's not just the amount of hexes/conds it removes, its the fast activation time and quick recharge, too
[foul feast] - Fine
[Wail of doom] - Meh, although I could stand to it being reverted
[plague sending]- Meh
[visions of regret] - I would have no regret; Dom messes have alot of variety
[primal rage] - Would rather see it reverted
[shield bash] - Or decrease duration to 1...8..10 or something like that
[lingering curse]- Or revert
[defile defenses]- Change to "Undertow Type A" ( See Below )
[death blossom]- Meh
[crushing blow]- There is no problem with CB
[Blades of Steel]- Meh
[Moebius Strike]- Meh
[Falling Spider]- Meh
[falling lotus strike]- Pretty sure people don't use this for the dmg..., but okay

Skill moves:

[parasitic bond] - People use it for the cheap and fast cover hex, not the health gain
[Feast of Corruption] - Interested in seeing your point in this
[insidious parasite] - Could make Blood more viable
[foul feast] - Meh
[Recall] - Okay; nice nerf to capways in HB
[wastrel's collapse]- Would hardly make a difference to Sin Primaries, unless this is an intended HB nerf
[aura of displacement]-Meh
[Shadow Meld]- Meh
[shadow walk]-Meh

General Buffs:

[siphon speed] - Meh
[Quick shot] -Still would seldom see the light of meta, but w/e; Elite Called Shot is elite Called Shot
[life sheath] - Fine
[Divine boon] - Recharge to 5 seconds and its fine
[Mantra of recall]- Fine
[withdraw hexes]- You either havent learned anything from PnH or you really hate hexes
[horns of the Ox] - Fine
[black lotus strike] - Fine
[punishing shot] - Dazed/Blind every 5 seconds.... No thanks
[guardian]- Fine as is
[incendiary arrows]- Couldn't agree more
[chaos storm]- So monks will have to take 3 extra steps, eh?
[Elemental Resistance]- Meh
[physical resistance]- Meh
[power flux] -Panic=better elite, anyway...
[simple thievery]- Meh
[flare]- Gogo, Flareway
[Lava Arrows]- gogo flareway
[Lift Enchantment]- Meh
[Enduring Toxin]- Meh
[Mark of Death]- Meh
[Sadists signet]- Meh
[Golden Skull Strike]- Curious to see how the Fail effect would be accomplished...
[Way of the Fox]- Meh

Functionality changes that are neither buffs or nerfs:
( These are mainly designed to change these skills in such a way as to increase the amount of player skill needed to use them effectively, without screwing them too much )

[Shadow Fang]- Interesting
[shadow prison]-Interesting
[Dark Prison]- Interesting
[deaths charge]- Would have to have good communiction with monks
[shadow walk]- Wanding says 'Hi'
[beguiling haze]- Interesting
[aura of displacement]- Interesting
[atrophy]- Still wouldnt be used
[blessed light] -Will never happen; this mechanic has been proposed for over 2 years, with impressive arguements, too
[Conjure phantasm]- Meh
[conjure nightmare]- Meh
[Backfire]- Meh
[barbs]- Meh
[Faintheartedness]-Meh
[empathy]- Meh
[Insidious Parasite]-Meh
[Blurred vision]- No
[ice spikes]- Meh
[deep freeze]-Meh
[disrupting stab]- Still would seldom be used
[fox fangs]- Interesting
[Expose Defenses]- No
[Siphon Strength]- No
[repeating strike]- Still would seldom be used
[Shadowy Burden]- Meh
[Shameful fear]- Meh
[Amity]- No one would run it after using it for 2 days
[Zealous Benediction] -Woh is still better
[Feast of Corruption] - Meh
[Reckless Haste]- Flawed in so many ways, beyond mechanics
[Rend enchantments]- Or nerf it according to many of the other suggestions
[Shadow of Fear]- No

Engine Functionality changes

AOE damage - AoE is one of the few things that promotes not balling up. Don;t touch it

Shadowsteps - Fine

"Undertow Type A" - There is already alot on everyones minds when playing this game competetively, don't further their burden

"Undertow Type B" - See above

Note that Undertow does not change the skill type from Hex or enchantment or whatever once the *original functionality* sets in motion, it just changes how the skill can be avoided in a way that forces players to pay more attention to the screen and less attention to skillbars. It also does not stack, meaning no spiking can be done with any skill that has it.

Flame away.

My four half-pennies...

Master Ketsu · Mar 02, 2009, 12:41 AM // 00:41

F'ing A. I typed that post up in Open Office and somehow it got mixed with an Unreal ED thing I was also doing.

When I say Undertow I actually meant "Lock On". The words got replaced with a map review I was doing for the actual map "undertow".

@ Apok - its not meant to be anti AOE, but more anti "Lets make a buttonmash build with 5 eles all with the same aoe spam skills and exploit cripple skills because we lack any creativity or skill whatsoever. Yay !" I am aware that its not the best way, I just want the meta to actually shift.

Mr Emu · Mar 02, 2009, 02:21 AM // 02:21

I like most of your changes, however, I'm not so sure about the lock-on for anti-melee and snares. You basically pegged all the anti-melee and snare hexes as worthless, which leaves only blind and cripple. I also detest the AoE nerf, that just isn't the way the game works and adds needless complication.

Master Ketsu · Mar 02, 2009, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

You basically pegged all the anti-melee and snare hexes as worthless, which leaves only blind and cripple.

Are you sure about that ? I also considerably decreased the recharge and energy of those skills. Maybe against good warriors its a nerf, but for the most part no one would manage to dodge it 100% of the time. It's a buff when used against bad melee'rs ( AKA most of them) It's probably something I should have put in sardelac though.

Mr Emu · Mar 02, 2009, 03:07 AM // 03:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

Are you sure about that ? I also considerably decreased the recharge and energy of those skills. Maybe against good warriors its a nerf, but for the most part no one would manage to dodge it 100% of the time. It's a buff when used against bad melee'rs ( AKA most of them) It's probably something I should have put in sardelac though.

I definitely agree that no one could avoid the effect 100% of the time, but even 50% avoidance would kill the skills. Something that unreliable is not worth bringing for use in clutch situations, which is when you really need the effect to stick.

Burton2000 · Mar 02, 2009, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Im strongly against buffing boon prot skills as you will just have the bar used as another midliner smiter monk. Smiters boon anyone?

Most of the changes master ketsu have suggested I can't even begin to say how bad they are.

Master Ketsu · Mar 02, 2009, 06:33 PM // 18:33

If people ever did use Boon prot for smiting and it turned out to not be too big a bane on energy for it to be as good as pre-nerf smiters boon, it would make more sense to limit boon prot to healing and protection prayers rather then kill a build just because some people found a way to exploit a skill in it.

Killed u man · Mar 02, 2009, 08:40 PM // 20:40

To whoever said the AoE nerf from Ketsu is making it more complicated:

AoE is a bad mechanic on certain HoH maps...

Who gives a shit about HA? Apparently more people than for GvG, just because Izzy was a fagget who never HA'ed, doesn't mean it's time for HA to see some updates aswell, I hope the new balancer realizes that...

I like the AoE nerf, in it's current state, AoE is just redicilous on Cap Points...

X Black Chaos X · Mar 02, 2009, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Ok #1 the attack skills on a sin are fine, no change is needed for them. They've already been nerfed more than what 3 times? The Assasin's high damage is contrasted by it's weak defense. A glass Cannon is the best term to describe a sin. there job is to move in and out of combat, and pressure. The suggested nerfs to Shadow Meld, recall etc. are fine. i think moving them to critical would be a nice stop the current lame game play in HB. However the change for Dark Prison and Shadow Prison is stupid. They're fine they way they are now (although i think the after cast should be removed). No one runs an SP sin anymore so y do anything to it. (unless they run Sway in hero battles). Personally i think you've made too many changes to too many skills throwing things out of whack

Kaon · Mar 03, 2009, 12:51 AM // 00:51

I suppose ill just quote my post from the QQ forums again. It's proof of the constant buffing of defense, which has made the game shittier and shittier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mitch

[It's not so much that defense has been buffed, it's that offense has been buffed so less of it is required to kill, which in turn leaves more room for defense.

Bullshit, lets put the major offensive and defensive updates next to each other.

Offensive buffs:
Paragon class
Turret ranger
Hammerwarriors have improved slightly
Rend enchantments
Interface updates have allowed mesmers to be more disruptive*

*This does also add a lot of defense against all types of casters.

Offensive nerfs:
Gale
Eviscerate
Bulls Strike
Energy Denial
signet of humility

Conclusion: Offensive hasn't become that much more powerful, but it has shifted from hard and tactical disruption with gale and edenial to straight forward superdamage from paragons and rend enchantments. So we could say offense got slightly more powerful, but less fun and sophisticated.

Defensive buffs:
Guardian
Weapon of Warding
Protective was kaolai
Word of Healing
Vitae Runes
Superweaponsets: 40/40 40/20/20, +10shields.
Spirit bond
stances
All hex removal
Peace and Harmony
Blinding surge
Heal Party
Self Heals

All these buffs have HUGE impact on the game. Having 650 health and shield sets has removed casterspike from the game. Partyhealing has become significantly more powerful. Protection has become sooo much more powerful, guardian is simply twice as good, spiritbond is one of the most overpowered skills in the game, and weapon of warding is just stupid. These days we can throw a 300heal for 5 energy. This wouldve cost us at LEAST 15 energy a couple of years ago. Midliners have become much more powerful being able to use bsurge over expensive bflash with the dangerous ether prodigy. Recent peace and harmony buff (together with sig of hum nerf) is the nail in the coffin for any hex build. In fact the only thing that didn't really get more powerful was condition removal. We now have dismiss condition where we used to have mend ailment.

Defensive nerfs:
Aegis
Ward against melee
blinding flash
anti-warrior necromancer hexes
Armor swapping
Distortion

The only ones truely worth noting here are aegis and ward against melee. Aegis is still powerful but not as retarded as it used to be. Ward got nerfed to death, although in the golden age of guild wars it was never THAT powerful because the large amount of aoe (e-denial especially) would prevent people from stacking in it too badly, after nightfall and the introduction of all beforementioned buffs it was simply retarded and too powerful. Distortion nerf has been completely countered by the introduction of natural stride and warrior stances. Why am i not mentioning boonprots? Because noone would run them anyway with current elite skills.

Summary:
- Defense has seen TREMENDOUS increase in power over the ENTIRE line: Health, Heal, Partyheal, Prot, Midline, Hex removal, Self Protection (stances+selfheals), Equipment and Offensive shutdown.
- Offense has seen a slight NERF of the warrior (gale etc.) class, a NERF of direct monk shutdown (e-denial), but an increase in enchantment removal and the introduction of 2 extremely powerful damage templates (P, turret R).

This is what's wrong with guild wars. If you nerf turret rangers you basically remove the only big improvement of offense of the past 3 years.

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 03, 2009, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Offensive buffs you've missed
Ranger templates in general have been buffed.
Warriors have been buffed, PR, WE
Hexes such a empathy,vor, weaken kness, lingering, defile, WOD,
Enchantment removal problems rend, POD, rip
cracked armor

Since when was spirit bond buffed, last I knew it was nerfed.
Defensive nerfs you've missed

SB
SOD
D anthem
motivation line on paras
Shields up
Watch your self
Incoming

Stances were always a problem, don't think they've been buffed in a long time, it's just the warrior stances have never been nerfed.

I just can't agree with offense being weaker atm over defense. All I see is dual ranger builds spiking crap every 8 seconds or less. Hex teams destroying people in under 4mins even though PNH is being used and certain people claiming party healing is too strong.

I think though that going back to having to use either LOD or heal parties for team healing would either place such skills to be used at stand, so they can be interrupted, or make people use runners that can't do everything very well like Rit templates can now. Nerf spirits that can just plopped out of range, increase cast time on POT.

Robster Lobster · Mar 03, 2009, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ex Death

Assuming your proposed change to ward against melee did infact replace kaolai + warding on bsurges, surely that would mean that this defensive option would be better? If it wasn't better than the current kaolai + warding what would be the point in buffing it in the first place? I don't really understand your motives for adding more defense to the game. Is it just for more variety? It certainly wouldn't be for the fun factor.

Well, the idea would be that in this example, Ward against Melee would be stronger in an 8vs8 engagement (as well as giving an extra skill slot, possibly for a damage skill?), and Kaolai+Warding would be stronger for splits. As I said before, adding some passive defense options to the game increase the value of disruption and split play, which should benefit the game.

scruffy · Mar 03, 2009, 12:04 PM // 12:04

kaon is dumb and bad at the game, according to him PnH monks are invincible

I am starting to believe he is just really bad at warrior because he doesn't realize that when you get down to it there are only a few things left that have a legit chance to stop a kill

Weapon of Warding: rigor, target swap
Stances: rigor,wait til its over,swap
Guardian: rend, rigor, swap
Protective was kaolai: party healing isnt going to stop the onslaught of unhindered spikes
Word of Healing: monks can heal people, woopedy doo
Armor, shield sets, vitae runes: this is a legit buff to defense but is not as effective to builds with shellshock
Spirit bond: since they cant preprot with it anymore whenever rend is recharged it prevents people from dying but it isnt efficient
All hex removal: how is this a defensive buff? most teams use hex removal for cleaning warriors, hex builds cover their hexes anyways which forces the other team to waste their elite on a stronger hex removal or they get rolled unless they spike the other team down really fast...
Peace and Harmony: this skill blows, i would rather have RC and just let a midliner take expel or something if you really need hex removal
Blinding surge: this is one of the only legit defensive buffs you have mentioned
Heal Party: when was the last time someone used this? its a terrible skill atm
Self Heals: people dont use self heals except lol lord damage lol rangers

the only skills that prevent me from wiping your team in 2 minutes are these

weapon of warding
blind
stances

the problem is that physical damage is too strong, which makes skills like rend and rigor mortis (and blind removals to a lesser degree)better than they would otherwise be because they are direct counters to the only defenses that teams have available to them atm.