Curse

DreamWind · Feb 28, 2009, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Does anybody else find it hilarious that:

A. We don't know who the actual skill balancer is

B. We don't know if there will even be a skill balance

C. Even if there were, in the past almost none of the suggestions were used

D. Yet there is discussion of what should be changed

Eh maybe I'm the only one.

moriz · Feb 28, 2009, 04:04 PM // 16:04

A. it's linsey murdock and her team
B. either this coming thursday or the week after
C. i'll give you that

D. iherdgwiz srs bizniz

DreamWind · Feb 28, 2009, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

C. i'll give you that

D. iherdgwiz srs bizniz

Definition
-------------

Insanity - Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Raul the Rampant · Feb 28, 2009, 04:42 PM // 16:42

I'm going to have to disagree with a lot of the suggestions here, not because I think the skills are fine as is, but rather I think there are better ways of going about it.

Warrior
[Primal Rage] - Instead of reducing the IAS and movement boosts to make it unusable (which seems to be what people are suggesting), try something along these lines: For 1..12..14 seconds, you attack 33% faster and move 25% faster, but you take double damage and gain 33% (or 25%) less adrenaline. This still grants benefits worthy of being an elite, but limits the ability to dish out a constant stream of attack skills.

[insert tactics stance here] - While these are supposedly a problem on caster classes, cutting the duration significantly across the board would give warriors even fewer reasons to ever do anything in that line (which is a shame). Instead of simply halving the durations across the boards, treat them like [Lion's Comfort] used to be (I'll use the wording from disciplined for an example): For 0..2..3 seconds plus 1 second for every x points in strength, you gain +24 armor and have a 75% chance to block attacks. Disciplined Stance ends if you use an adrenal skill. The baseline reduction makes them less effective on casters, but the conditional makes them more attractive to warriors. [Shield Bash] could be worked into this pattern, too, if desired, but it would have to be moved to tactics first.

Paragon
[Burning Shield] - I'm only putting this because I liked that suggestion by Robbert Monga so long as it would be "targeted party member" rather than "all party members in earshot."

Ranger
[Melandru's Shot]/[Hunter's Shot] - The activation time on these would be fine if they were changed so that the bonus damage would only trigger at the times the conditions would (when they're moving or knocked down). Have you ever tried using either of these skills as they were intended? Of course not, there's no reason to while they're set up like they currently are; but the activation time is necessary to make them viable in that role. If the damage only triggered on a moving of kd'd foe these skills would actually require some thought, skill, and team coordination to deploy properly.

Necro
[Rend Enchantments]/[Gaze Of Contempt] - The point of these skills (and [Strip Enchantment][Chilblains] or even [Test Of Faith]) is to allow teams to get around enchant stacking, just as [Deny Hexes][Convert Hexes][Holy Veil][Contemplation of Purity] etc. are designed to get past hex stacking without eating up an elite slot. That said, both of these could use some work. Rend could be fixed simply by increasing the health loss for each enchant removed (scaled so that people running curses would still be able to use it safely), say on a scale like [Order of Apostasy] where the caster would be in serious jeopardy of suicide if several enchants are removed. Gaze of Contempt would be harder to fix since it is unlinked, but maybe it could be something like [Purge Signet]: If target foe has more than 50% Health, that foe loses all enchantments. Caster loses 5 energy for each enchantment removed by this skill. Perhaps a bit excessive, but some proper weaponset swapping would be encouraged.

[Foul Feast] - Much too powerful when compared to [Draw Conditions], even if it is tied to Soul Reaping. Increasing the cast to 10 energy would make it harder for it to be used solely as an e-management skill (4 conditions would be required for there to be a net gain at 14 SR). Also I would eliminate the healing portion of it altogether; in fact, given that so many necro skills require a health sacrifice I would maybe turn it around: All conditions are transferred from target other ally to yourself. For each condition acquired in this way you gain 0..2..3 Energy but lose 42..36..0 health.

Assassin
[Palm Strike] - Making this count as a lead attack would decompress an assassin bar a bit. Otherwise it could be left as an offhand but converted to blunt damage to make it a bit less potent. That said, I don't know that it really warrants a change just yet.

Elementalist
[Glyph of Immolation]/[Steam] - Reducing the length of the burning does absolutely nothing to make mesmers with [Steam] less effective unless you move it to energy storage and scale it to 0. The problem (if there is one) would be with steam itself. That said, with all the warriors running sentinal's insignias these days and the ability to shield swap to a +10 v Cold it really shouldn't be hurting all that much...

That [Ward Against Melee] Thing from the OP - I don't follow the logic there at all. "The blocking effect of the old ward was frustrating as it meant that it was entirely possible for you to miss your important attacks, especially for Hammer warriors." ...Isn't that the point of any blocking skill? Any blocking stance/enchant makes it entirely possible to miss your important attacks... Plus the slower attack would mean that a hammer skill requiring a kd would be less likely to hit, especially if you have to cancel [Frenzy] or [Primal Rage] for some reason. Granted, stances and enchants can be removed, but how would this ward be any different than [Weapon Of Warding]? Only thing I can think of is that it has a more limited application as it can only be places where the caster is standing and has no mobile flexibility like a targeted spell does. All in all I see very little use for something like that.

And with that I'll stop for now, but I'll probably think of something else later.

Robbert Monga · Feb 28, 2009, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

Paragon
[Burning Shield] - I'm only putting this because I liked that suggestion by Robbert Monga so long as it would be "targeted party member" rather than "all party members in earshot."

That would make it only marginally more useful than it is now, i.e. still useless.
To be targeted it lacks the stopping power. Yeah, you blocked one attack skill and set target on fire... big fookin deal!
Suppose actual effect would be: "Shout. (3...8...9 seconds.) Blocks the next attack skill against target other ally. Inflicts Burning condition (1...5...6 second(s)) and Blind condition (0...1...2 seconds) if it was a melee attack."
Yeah, now we talking stopping power... however that would only make it a clone of Shield Bash, which is ok, but not great way to go.
Imo weaker (and more passive) aoe defense is more in line with paragon skills.

Michael805 · Feb 28, 2009, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

To be targeted it lacks the stopping power. Yeah, you blocked one attack skill and set target on fire... big fookin deal!

Hammer warriors say sup.

Robbert Monga · Feb 28, 2009, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael805

Hammer warriors say sup.

Hammer warriors say sup to many things... including Shield Bash that is infinitely better than Burning Shield.

Michael805 · Feb 28, 2009, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

Hammer warriors say sup to many things... including Shield Bash that is infinitely better than Burning Shield.

Make shield bash useless at 0 strength like it should be, then make burning shield target other ally.

Raul the Rampant · Feb 28, 2009, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

(regarding [Burning Shield])That would make it only marginally more useful than it is now, i.e. still useless.
To be targeted it lacks the stopping power. Yeah, you blocked one attack skill and set target on fire... big fookin deal!
Suppose actual effect would be: "Shout. (3...8...9 seconds.) Blocks the next attack skill against target other ally. Inflicts Burning condition (1...5...6 second(s)) and Blind condition (0...1...2 seconds) if it was a melee attack."
Yeah, now we talking stopping power... however that would only make it a clone of Shield Bash, which is ok, but not great way to go.
Imo weaker (and more passive) aoe defense is more in line with paragon skills.

I agree that at the moment it's fairly useless, but I think you're underestimating the tactical value here of being able to target it specifically. Only a clone of [Shield Bash]?! People want that made less effective than it currently is... it is quite effective in doing what it was intended to do: block a single attack and diffuse a spike.

By blocking just one key skill (i.e. a knockdown) you take away other skills like [Crushing Blow][Pulverizing Smash], etc., seriously hampering a team's spiking capability (especially if they're defense heavy to begin with)... plus the person who was supposed to be kd'd can now continue to cast or attack at will. Snagging [Wounding Strike] from a dervish bar is helpful (one would hope some defense would be in place by the time it recharges 3 seconds later), and breaking an assassin's chain makes that person essentially useless. A targeted version would be quite useful if the player is willing to put some thought in to when and where to use it. That is the point of balance, is it not?

I'm going to assume you're exaggerating a bit for effect on that suggestion above, but let's assume that effect is applied to a party wide shout. Sounds like what you're actually asking for is an aoe version of [Deadly Riposte]... The blind is just excessive (even moreso than the fact that it is theoretically capable of protecting an entire team from any melee based spike for 9 seconds). Bring two copies of this fully reqqed and it can be chained essentially non-stop; since it would require the use of a skill to be triggered swapping targets to disguise a spike wouldn't work (you're not going to sacrifice 2 or 3 attacks in order to initiate a spike)... you're forcing a team to telegraph it's spikes, letting monks concentrate all their efforts on a single person instead of having to pay attention to the whole team.

We already had [Defensive Anthem] as an elite that only allowed a 50% chance to block, inflicted no conditions, and ended when a player hit with an attack... it was overpowered in this form, and yet I'd argue that an aoe version of [Burning Shield] as we've been discussing is much stronger (100% block, gives a condition, and the ability to attack while it's active) and it's not elite. Targeting a specific party member would at least require some tactical sense to use instead of just spamming it blissfully on recharge while hitting c + spacebar.

Robster Lobster · Feb 28, 2009, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ex Death

but the defensive buffs will mean that the fewer slots dedicated to defense will be more powerful than before

That's only really the case if certain defensive options are strictly better than the current ones, and make defense stronger in spite of the other defensive nerfs suggested. For example, the new Ward I proposed would fit fairly well on a B-Surge, but to fit on the current B-Surge template, it would need to drop Warding and Kaolai, which can be stronger in split situations, and are still powerful 8vs8.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ex Death

Although I respect the fact that more party healing options can lead to more build variety, physical and disruptive pressure will never exist in this game unless there is pretty much only one form of party healing.

I disagree, there isn't much difference between running party heals A,B and C in your build or running 3 copies of party heal A. For example, imagine that LoD was the only viable party heal in the game at the moment. If it was necessary, you could probably get away with running 3 copies of that in something like nH build, with the midline LoD, an LoD and Word monk, and an LoD flagger. Running as much party healing as you can isn't the best possible option though. Also, there are still plenty of ways to make running multiple party heals unattractive, long cast times really hurt their viability at flagstand and push them onto runners for example.

----------------------------------------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

[Primal Rage] - Instead of reducing the IAS and movement boosts to make it unusable (which seems to be what people are suggesting), try something along these lines: For 1..12..14 seconds, you attack 33% faster and move 25% faster, but you take double damage and gain 33% (or 25%) less adrenaline. This still grants benefits worthy of being an elite, but limits the ability to dish out a constant stream of attack skills.

I don't see this change fixing the problems with the skill, it remains brainless, it remains incredibly powerful for spiking, for pressure and for split.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

[insert tactics stance here] - While these are supposedly a problem on caster classes, cutting the duration significantly across the board would give warriors even fewer reasons to ever do anything in that line (which is a shame). Instead of simply halving the durations across the boards, treat them like [Lion's Comfort] used to be (I'll use the wording from disciplined for an example): For 0..2..3 seconds plus 1 second for every x points in strength, you gain +24 armor and have a 75% chance to block attacks. Disciplined Stance ends if you use an adrenal skill. The baseline reduction makes them less effective on casters, but the conditional makes them more attractive to warriors. [Shield Bash] could be worked into this pattern, too, if desired, but it would have to be moved to tactics first.

I don't think this is really necessary, if you needed to run them for whatever reason then the energy based stances would still be useful on warriors against spikes, or split warrior's wanting to protect their Healing Signet on splits. Not really relevant to the game at the moment though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

[Melandru's Shot]/[Hunter's Shot] - The activation time on these would be fine if they were changed so that the bonus damage would only trigger at the times the conditions would (when they're moving or knocked down). Have you ever tried using either of these skills as they were intended? Of course not, there's no reason to while they're set up like they currently are; but the activation time is necessary to make them viable in that role. If the damage only triggered on a moving of kd'd foe these skills would actually require some thought, skill, and team coordination to deploy properly.

I think both of these skills are also too strong on Apply Poison rangers, Melandru's shot has been the elite of choice for a while now, and has pushed Burning Arrow, Crip Shot and to a slightly lesser extent magebane shot out of the game on Rangers with Apply. Hunter's shot is ran a ton for its ability to spread poison at stand and do extra damage on a split.

I got fed up replying around here, I don't think you play PvP. I was going to delete it all and just leave a snarky response, but I spent some time writing it, and figured you might be interested in reading it.

EDIT: Burning Shield would be pretty much outclassed by Brace if it was target other Ally. It could be interesting if it affected all Ally's, but it might need to be changed from Attack skill to just Attack unless the numbers were changed. 2 Para's with Burning Shield and DA could be strong, and could use Burning Shield to prevent ranger interrupts on their DA and on Aegis.

Robbert Monga · Feb 28, 2009, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Raul the Rampant
I am kinda unclear on where you going with your argument as you seem to use Shield Bash and Burning Shield interchangebly.
Are you saying having Burning Shield being both aoe AND having good stopping power would be overpowered? Yes, of course. But your suggestion is neither. One simply blocked attack may stop spike chain of one attacker... even in the best case, that hardly adds anything to the big picture.
Shield Bash has what i takes, and while it does need some toning down, it's main strength is the KD in the middle of the spike, which is effectively takes out attacker both spike and pressure wise.
Burning Shield does nothing to prevent pressure and very little to stop spike.
Thats why I argue that if it were to became targeted it would need some extra juice to make up for utter uselessness of inflicting burning condition on frenzying axe war. Otherwise it would need to be party wide to be useful.

Raul the Rampant · Feb 28, 2009, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

I don't see this change fixing the problems with the skill, it remains brainless, it remains incredibly powerful for spiking, for pressure and for split.

Yes, it remains powerful, but that's why it's an elite; it should do more than comparable non-elite skills. Essentially it combines a weaker version of [Frenzy] + [Rush] into a single skill. Reducing the adrenaline gain while leaving the IAS and damage penalty intact actually makes it somewhat weaker than frenzy alone where you would gain adrenaline faster, and means a cancel stance is still required. It still provides the perks of an elite skill without allowing the user to keep adrenaline skills like [Executioner's Strike] + [Disrupting Chop] permanently charged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

I don't think this is really necessary, if you needed to run them for whatever reason then the energy based stances would still be useful on warriors against spikes, or split warrior's wanting to protect their Healing Signet on splits. Not really relevant to the game at the moment though.

Make tactics appeal to the class for which it was designed and maybe it will become relevant. With a duration that short (using the ones that have been given as examples) you'd have to run 14 tactics to use of of those skills to fully cover [Resurrection Signet], and still wouldn't last long enough to fully cover [Death Pact Signet]... why use a slot at attributes points on that when you can save the slot and accomplish basically the same thing with a good fake cast?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

I think both of these skills are also too strong on Apply Poison rangers, Melandru's shot has been the elite of choice for a while now, and has pushed Burning Arrow, Crip Shot and to a slightly lesser extent magebane shot out of the game on Rangers with Apply. Hunter's shot is ran a ton for its ability to spread poison at stand and do extra damage on a split.

So why would making the bonus damage conditional not help? Every ranger on the planet runs apply anyway, and the functionalities of those MS/HS do not change how apply functions. Making the bonus damage for those skills conditional makes options that have unconditional bonus damage more attractive (a la Burning Arrow), while still allowing MS/HS to fulfull their intended functionalities. Cripshot would still be superior to MS/HS for solely spreading poison since it recharges faster and is unblockable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

I got fed up replying around here, I don't think you play PvP. I was going to delete it all and just leave a snarky response, but I spent some time writing it, and figured you might be interested in reading it.

While clearly our opinions differ, yes, I did find it interesting, and thank you for posting it.

Edit (no longer pressed for time so I'll elaborate more):

@Robbert: What I'm trying to say is that if it does become aoe it would have to be substantially weaker than Shield Bash in order to be balanced. I would have no objection to adding things like the damage/blind things you mentioned so long as it then becomes a targeted shout. But yes, as Robster pointed out, it would not necessarily be on the same level as Brace Yourself. How about reducing the recharge to something in the 5 - 8 second range then if it targeted? It wouldn't be able to be maintained on an entire team but would have the ability to be a more active defensive measure.

Also I guess it would make a difference if the "no effect unless you are wielding a shield" stipulation remains in place, as it would then cease to apply to characters wielding bows/hammers/daggers/scythes and anyone holding ashes. If this condition did remain in place an aoe-type shout would be more acceptable.

Ec]-[oMaN · Feb 28, 2009, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

B. We don't know if there will even be a skill balance

C. Even if there were, in the past almost none of the suggestions were used

D. Yet there is discussion of what should be changed

Eh maybe I'm the only one.

b-We probably won't see any kind of semi large balance like the ones proposed here, remember I think that same team that we want to balance PvP is busy working on increased storage space and HOM

c- and in the past we actually had people like Andrew Patrick reading these sub forums and supposedly relaying info back to people, who's here now?

As for some of the changes I'm reading they aren't bad, most are just toning down the current OP power the current skills have, something this game was going through months years ago, yet we're right back where we started.

InfernalSuffering · Feb 28, 2009, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Buffs:
[Earth Shaker]: Reduce adrenaline cost to 7.
[Healing Signet]: Reduce activation time to 1 second.
[Windborne Speed]: Decrease energy cost to 5
[Blessed Light]: Decrease energy cost to 5. If hex is removed, you lose 5 energy.
[Heal Party]: Decrease energy cost to 10. Increase recharge to 10. Decrease cast time to 1.
[Shield of Absorption]: Decrease recharge to 4 seconds.
[Rotting Flesh]: Reduce energy cost to 10 and casting time to 2. Increase recharge to 15.

Nerfs:
[Flail]: changed duration to 0…13
[Disciplined Stance]: Reduce block percentage to 50%. Increase recharge to 20. Remove armor bonus.
[Melandrus Shot]: Remove bleeding.
[Hunters Shot]: Remove 1 second activation.
[Lightning Reflexes]: For 1…10 seconds you have a 75% chance to block melee attacks.
[Lingering Curse]: Decrease AoE to adjacent.
[Faintheartedness]: Reduce duration to 1…14.
[Hidden Caltrops]: Move to critical strikes.
[Strength of Honor]: For 30 seconds, each time target ally attacks, they deal 5 extra damage.
[Life Sheath]: Decrease conditions removed to 1.
[Peace And Harmony]: Target ally loses 0…1 condition and 0…1 hex. For 1…4 seconds, conditions and hexes expire 66% faster on that ally. All of your Smiting Prayers are disabled for 20 seconds. Increase casting time to 1 second.

Skill Reconstruction:
These skills have fundamental design flaws. They need to be either completely nerfed into an unplayable state or completely redesigned. I added my ideas as to what a potential change could be.

[Primal Rage]: For 5…17 seconds, you attack 33% faster and gain double adrenaline from attacks. “Primal Rage” ends when you use any non-adrenal skills. Changed cost to 4 adrenaline.
[Warriors Endurance]: For 5…29 seconds you steal 1…5 health with each melee attack.
[Pain of Disenchantment]: For 1…20 seconds target foe and all nearby foes are hexed with Pain of Disenchantment. Whenever a foe under Pain of Disenchantment loses an enchantment, they take 1…35 damage.
[Rend Enchantments]: Hex. For 1…15 seconds, target foe loses an enchantment every 5 seconds. Increase recharge to 30 seconds.
[Visions of Regret]: Decrease energy cost to 5, recharge time to 5, and casting time to 2. After 4 seconds, target foe takes 15…100 damage and loses 1…5 energy. “Visions of Regret” ends prematurely if that foe uses a skill.

Fast Casting now affects only Mesmer skills.
Removed the 14 day requirement for Automated Tournaments and Balthazar Faction.
Killing an NPC of the opposing guild now results in a 2% morale boost for each archer killed, 4% for each knight killed, and 5% for killing the bodyguard.
The tie-breaker is now based on which team has the highest morale at 28 minutes. If morale is tied, the next tie-breaker is aggressiveness.

emuking · Feb 28, 2009, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Definition
-------------

Insanity - Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Quote your stolen quotes!

on topic, change decapitate to what i asked for months ago on one of these forums! Most of these suggested changes are terrible btw... i like making balanced skill updates and all you did was make simple temporary suggestions. Don't attack builds because builds will come and go, dont nerf skills b/c "i dont like sins so lets nerf palm" because your bias towards sins is gonna blow em outta the water with your poor skill "balances" if you can even call them that.

Robbert Monga · Feb 28, 2009, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Raul the Rampant
ok, so that is exactly what i said in the first place?

Raul the Rampant · Feb 28, 2009, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robbert Monga

Raul the Rampant
ok, so that is exactly what i said in the first place?

Let's check:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

I'm only putting this because I liked that suggestion by Robbert Monga so long as it would be "targeted party member" rather than "all party members in earshot."

The bolded part would indicate that I liked the concept, but thought that it was a bit overpowered based on how I initially understood it. If what I said in my last post what what you meant initially, then the answer is a tentative "yes"... I did bring up a few questions in that last edit that have yet to be addressed, so that could change my answer a bit.

Robster Lobster · Feb 28, 2009, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

Yes, it remains powerful, but that's why it's an elite; it should do more than comparable non-elite skills.

I think most people agree that not only is Primal Rage very strong, the mechanic is very bad for the game in a number of ways. Kiting, positioning, quarter stepping, split play and effective Frenzy/Rush management are all damaged by Primal Rage being in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

Make tactics appeal to the class for which it was designed and maybe it will become relevant.

Why should defensive stances in tactics become more viable for warriors? What interesting changes would that bring to the game?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raul the Rampant

So why would making the bonus damage conditional not help? Every ranger on the planet runs apply anyway, and the functionalities of those MS/HS do not change how apply functions.

In the past, when people wanted to pressure, they would spread poison using savage shot in between normal attacks. This had several downsides, it was energy intensive to do for a long time, and it meant your interrupt might be recharging when you needed it. Hunter's shot is much more effective in pretty much every single way. I don't think this level of powercreep is good for the game.

Krill · Mar 01, 2009, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

[Healing Signet]: Reduce activation time to 1 second.

Well hey...buff [Troll Unguent] then too

I like these threads. Everyone throws out a lot of ideas, some good, some bad, only to be utterly disappointed by the next update.

InfernalSuffering · Mar 01, 2009, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

I like these threads. Everyone throws out a lot of ideas, some good, some bad, only to be utterly disappointed by the next update.

It's a good system.