Curse

distilledwill · Apr 09, 2009, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by infamous16

couldn't you not use tiger stance since wastrel's disables it for 10 seconds?

and how long does wastrel's stay up as a hex for iron palm?

Wastrel's is no longer a hex, its a shadowstep that causes knockdown if the foe is not activating a skill. Iron Palm would trigger off the poison from falling spider.

Bobby2 · Apr 09, 2009, 04:12 PM // 16:12

@ Lux: drop Deadly Arts and run this instead

[mark of instability][wastrel's collapse][tiger stance][falling lotus strike][twisting fangs][falling spider][blades of steel][dash]

God_Hand · Apr 09, 2009, 04:13 PM // 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Not all enchantments are unnecessary/useless. [grenth's grasp], [conjure flame] say hi.

Now where's your IAS with those secondaries? Either you have none, or it's WotA, or it would require you to spec heavily (9, 10+ points) into another line. Oh, and [Strip Enchantment], [Rip Enchantment], [Rending Touch], etc, etc, etc. say sup.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

My side of things:
- IMS > IAS

You've got to be kidding. Leaping Mantis Sting Cripple FTW? Either way, notice the optional slot on the bar. That means you can PUT WHAT YOU WANT THERE. So if you're so concerned about having an IMS, take Dash. That's what I take, and it works very good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

- Shadow Step > IAS

You've got to be kidding. NOTHING is more important than getting your chain off, and getting it off QUICKLY. Just use Dash to get in quickly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

(well, I guess I could swap out BoS+sec skill for Twisting. Yay for bar compression)

You've got to be kidding. How is this bar compression? Last time I checked, Twisting Fangs doesn't do +120 in bonus damage. It's more like +40. The whole REASON for the secondary Deep Wound skill is so you can give up Twisting Fangs, run Blades of Steel, and still have a Deep Wound.

Want a similar effect? Press FtW right around Falling Spider/Lotus. Either Falling or Blades should crit (you've got a pretty good chance). The result? Twisting Fangs minus the bleeding plus lots more damage.

I also enjoy how you call my arguments "shortsighted." Yeah, real mature.

Bobby2 · Apr 09, 2009, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

Now where's your IAS with those secondaries? Either you have none, or it's WotA, or it would require you to spec heavily (9, 10+ points) into another line. Oh, and [Strip Enchantment], [Rip Enchantment], [Rending Touch], etc, etc, etc. say sup.

You can't combine WotA with Grenth's Grasp. [whirling charge]? Sup. Also, Battle Cry says hi. Welcome to AB.

If you want to bring up counter-skills, I could just mention any old ghey block stance and render both our arguments obsolete.

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

You've got to be kidding. Leaping Mantis Sting Cripple FTW? Either way, notice the optional slot on the bar. That means you can PUT WHAT YOU WANT THERE. So if you're so concerned about having an IMS, take Dash. That's what I take, and it works very good.

Learn to read. My point was that you would have to CHOOSE between an IMS or Shadow Step.

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

You've got to be kidding. NOTHING is more important than getting your chain off, and getting it off QUICKLY. Just use Dash to get in quickly.

Ok, so no shadow step for you. Not a decision I would make.

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

You've got to be kidding. How is this bar compression? Last time I checked, Twisting Fangs doesn't do +120 in bonus damage. It's more like +40. The whole REASON for the secondary Deep Wound skill is so you can give up Twisting Fangs, run Blades of Steel, and still have a Deep Wound.

But it does take up 2 slots instead of 1. Again, learn to read.

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

Want a similar effect? Press FtW right around Falling Spider/Lotus. Either Falling or Blades should crit (you've got a pretty good chance). The result? Twisting Fangs minus the bleeding plus lots more damage.

Except Twisting is a dual attack, and thus triggers the Deep Wound by itself, and leaves room on your bar for more utility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

I also enjoy how you call my arguments "shortsighted." Yeah, real mature.

You've made enough blanket statements to warrant such a response.

ac1inferno · Apr 09, 2009, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

[build=Owlj0tjspN1748/r/lwUY8PAAA]
[build=Owpj0tjcqNx5/X/T6mwUY8PAAA]

I would never use that second build over the first. There's no reason I would want to slow down my chain by using an extra attack over a shout that has no cast time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

Maybe here's what I should have said:

Here's Golden Fang Strike: [Golden Fang Strike], here's Jungle Strike: [Jungle Strike], which one would you rather have on your bar?

Jungle Strike's Extra Damage + Find Their Weakness' Deep Wound > Golden Fang + Unnecessary Enchantment's Deep Wound.

Never really used Impale, but it would have to follow Blades of Steel, and I personally would want the target Deep Wounded BEFORE the end of my attack chain.

[[Golden Fang Strike] is rarely used in any good Assassin build since it's slow and the deep wound is too early in the chain so a better chance of it being removed. [[Jungle Strike] or [[Fox Fangs] is mostly used because of its quick activation time to get to the knockdown faster.

[[Impale] is not too good either since the nerf of its activation time. And also, using it at the end of a chain would mean a trigger for the deep wound is missing, but then using it in the middle of a chain would mean slowing it down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

[wastrel's collapse][tiger stance][falling spider][iron palm][falling lotus strike][horns of the ox][impale][dash]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

[mark of instability][wastrel's collapse][tiger stance][falling lotus strike][twisting fangs][falling spider][blades of steel][dash]

Both builds are bad since it's only one spike every 20 seconds. And if you mess up with [[Wastrel's Collapse], that's 20 seconds of doing nothing since [[Tiger Stance] can't be used as an IAS for pressure and you have no snare outside of the knockdowns and with [[dash] only lasting 3 seconds, it's not a good IMS to keep up with kiting foes.

The need for a shadow step on an Assassin's bar is a long time ago. Now, decent Sins learned to use Dash as a quick burst of speed to close in on the distance between itself and its target.

The argument between [[Way of the Assassin] or using a secondary for your IAS isn't even about how you would get the deep wound. It's about the utilities that are opened up.

Using a Warrior secondary allows the IAS to not be an Elite and frees it up for other choices. Also, Warrior IAS's are faster than Way of the Assassin.

Now the reason to use Way of the Assassin over a Warrior IAS is for the utility of [["Find Their Weakness!"] to give [[Blades of Steel] a deep wound, resulting in a little slower, less frequent, but more powerful spike.

As for the deep wound, the reason why most Assassin builds use [[Twisting Fangs] is because it's a powerful finisher for a Sin chain. A deep wound for a Sin is best at the end of its chain because it's more likely to catch a monk off guard. If a monk is preoccupied with something else to not see the opening of a Sin's chain, the target is more likely to die if the deep wound is at the end because that makes it hard to prot. You can't reduce the life loss from a deep wound. The best you can do is wait for it to apply. Hope it lives, then take the deep wound off if it does. That makes it so that quick saves such as [[Reversal of Fortune] won't save the target because it becomes kind of useless if you don't use it early enough and it's too late into the Sin's chain since it won't stop the deep wound from cutting away the last of the health. Additional beauties of it is that it's an attack so it's affected by IAS, it's a dual attack so both hits apply deep wound meaning it's useless to remove the deep wound early and you have to wait for both to hit first, and also because it's a dual attack it provides it's own trigger that is also affected by IAS since it's part of the attack.

Using Blades of Steel with "Find Their Weakness" can achieve something similar by using ''Find Their Weakness" before [[Horns of the Ox]. It's more damage, but at the cost of speed and amount of spikes.

There really is no argument between which is the better build since it all boils down to the same Assassin attack skill chain. What makes the differences is the utilities in it that makes the play styles different, between spike, pressure, or somewhere in between.

Epic Wall of Text Rant finished. Read the last three paragraphs if you don't want to go through the whole thing lol.

Bobby2 · Apr 09, 2009, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

Both builds are bad since it's only one spike every 20 seconds. And if you mess up with [[Wastrel's Collapse], that's 20 seconds of doing nothing since [[Tiger Stance] can't be used as an IAS for pressure and you have no snare outside of the knockdowns and with [[dash] only lasting 3 seconds, it's not a good IMS to keep up with kiting foes.

Granted, I wouldn't play the one I posted myself because of the 20s recharge - I merely put it forward as an alternative for Lux. Messing up with WC is rare enough not to take it into consideration. When you're relegated to doing pressure damage, something has already gone wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

The need for a shadow step on an Assassin's bar is a long time ago. Now, decent Sins learned to use Dash as a quick burst of speed to close in on the distance between itself and its target.

lol, I think we'll never agree on this. Much rather have a DevHammer/WE Warrior instead.

Lux Aeterna · Apr 10, 2009, 01:34 PM // 13:34

The point of a Wastrel's build is to get one triple KDed kill every 20 seconds, without a target being able to fight back. It's useful in JQ, but I'd again use dev hammer / WE in AB.

My build is actually derived from the one starting with mark of instability, but (a) I didn't have that skill when I made it and (b) I don't like having to hex someone first.

But I may try it, as having both twisting fangs + blades of steel seems like a higher damage spike. Plus [impale] is fun because you can hit someone from a distance, therefore they run away having barely survived oh shit oh shit NOPE DEAD.

God_Hand · Apr 10, 2009, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

The argument between [[Way of the Assassin] or using a secondary for your IAS isn't even about how you would get the deep wound. It's about the utilities that are opened up.

If you go secondary for IAS, you need a primary DW skill.
If you go secondary to DW, you need a primary IAS skill.

For sins, there's only one: WotA.

Or I could just scrap my entire argument and say that:

[Mark of Instability] + [Twisting Fangs] = [Horns of the Ox] with guaranteed knockdown, more damage, deep wound, and bleeding = Uber.

15 more energy though... your call.

ac1inferno · Apr 11, 2009, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

If you go secondary for IAS, you need a primary DW skill.
If you go secondary to DW, you need a primary IAS skill.

For sins, there's only one: WotA.

Most Assassins would not look to their secondary for a Deep Wound because of [[Twisting Fangs]. And if they do, [["Find Their Weakness!"] is about the only one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

Or I could just scrap my entire argument and say that:

[Mark of Instability] + [Twisting Fangs] = [Horns of the Ox] with guaranteed knockdown, more damage, deep wound, and bleeding = Uber.

15 more energy though... your call.

I would not use [[Mark of Instability] because it would make it so that your entire chain completely relies on the hex not being removed in order to work. And if it does get removed, it's not till 20 seconds later that it recharges and you would be useless for that entire duration.

Krill · Apr 11, 2009, 01:56 AM // 01:56

When vetting builds for AB you need to ask yourself three questions:

Does it have the speed of a cheetah?
Does it have the power of a buffalo?
Does it have the strength of a bear?

Everything else is nuance, unless you're Luxon.

God_Hand · Apr 11, 2009, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

I would not use [[Mark of Instability] because it would make it so that your entire chain completely relies on the hex not being removed in order to work. And if it does get removed, it's not till 20 seconds later that it recharges and you would be useless for that entire duration.

That's why you Lead, then Off-Hand, then Hex, then Dual, then Falling, then Dual again. Anyone with common sense will place it as close to the initial dual attack as possible so there's less time to remove it.

Takes a LOT of energy, but lemme tell you, Twisting -> Falling -> Blades is just... awesome.

ac1inferno · Apr 11, 2009, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

That's why you Lead, then Off-Hand, then Hex, then Dual, then Falling, then Dual again. Anyone with common sense will place it as close to the initial dual attack as possible so there's less time to remove it.

Takes a LOT of energy, but lemme tell you, Twisting -> Falling -> Blades is just... awesome.

Stopping in midchain to cast a hex would just slow you down. It's the same idea as [[impale], using it in the middle would slow your chain, but using it at the end loses it's effectiveness, so you end up not using it at all. Only in this case of [[Mark of Instability], it's the beginning and not end.

Bobby2 · Apr 11, 2009, 03:50 PM // 15:50

You can be pretty fast about it, timing Mark of Instability as an interrupt, then using Wastrel's on aftercast. Still, having the opposing Cure Hex on cooldown helps a lot.

God_Hand · Apr 11, 2009, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

When vetting builds for AB you need to ask yourself three questions:

Does it have the speed of a cheetah?
Does it have the power of a buffalo?
Does it have the strength of a bear?

Everything else is nuance, unless you're Luxon.

This guy is a genius.