Curse

God_Hand · Apr 07, 2009, 04:38 PM // 16:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boogz

"Find Their Weakness" - 10e 15sec cd, no thanks

The advantage of Find Their Weakness is that it lets you deep wound without Twisting Fangs, so you can run Blades of Steel.

ac1inferno · Apr 07, 2009, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boogz

"Find Their Weakness" - 10e 15sec cd, no thanks.
stick with the "Coward!" build, but Flurry instead of Frenzy.

The reason for [["Find Their Weakness"] is so that [[Blades of Steel] can cause deep wound at the end of a chain, resulting in a stronger spike as opposed to having more pressure.

[["Coward!"] is for the knockdown spam pressure. Although the chain is slightly weaker than the [["Find Their Weakness"] one, the chain can be used more often resulting in a more pressure style build that still has a lot of dps.

As for [[Flurry] over [[Frenzy], why? Flurry makes you do less damage and lasts shorter than Frenzy. Frenzy is not a problem if you use it smart, and you also have [[Dash] to cancel if you need to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

Frenzy sins FTL. You'd think it would work like it does on war but sins just take too much damage and it's kind of a joke.

Frenzy Sins FTW. It's the best IAS to have. And yes, I know, Assassins have 70 AL and less armor means more damage taken when in Frenzy, but it does not matter in the hands of a good player because they won't always be in Frenzy. They would know how to use it smart and when to cancel with Dash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

TF does about as much thanks to the deep wound, works well on hard targets, and far less conditional.

For example, you can PS/Fangs a low target for a quick kill and you can't do that with blades. Of course, nobody ever does that because all sins are dumb and only capable in doing 1-2-3-4-5, not 1-5.

It's not [[Twisting Fangs] vs Blades of Steel. With "Find Their Weakness" and [[Way of the Assassin] to make it almost always work, it's Twisting Fangs vs Blades of Steel with Deep Wound.

Comparing [[Palm Strike] to it is a bad comparison because the builds are ran differently. "Find Their Weakness" is used to give Blades of Steel a deep wound for a stronger spike while Palm Strike is meant more for pressure by allowing less deadly, but more consistent, mini chains to be done.

Not all Sins are dumb and just roll their thumb across the numbers. I'll give it that most are for the people who first try the profession, but there are people who are experienced enough with Sins to know when it's beneficial to shorten their chain instead of completely unloading it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Why Leaping Mantis on this bar?

[[Leaping Mantis Sting] is on the bar to allow spikes outside of [["You're All Alone"].

Bobby2 · Apr 07, 2009, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

TF does about as much thanks to the deep wound, works well on hard targets, and far less conditional.

Yes, but [blades of steel] + Deep Wound does far more than [Twisting Fangs]. Not to mention it's not nearly as irritating as using [impale].

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

For example, you can PS/Fangs a low target for a quick kill and you can't do that with blades. Of course, nobody ever does that because all sins are dumb and only capable in doing 1-2-3-4-5, not 1-5.

Well, some of us can. And [find their weakness][blades of steel] on a low (likely fleeing) target (yay autocrits) is just lols.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Why Leaping Mantis on this bar? You could go with Distupting Stab (I find the biggest advantage of this is not that it interrupts, but that it throws off rangers trying to dshot your chain because it's faster than a normal attack) or even Iron Palm. Moar KDs = moar winning?

Sometimes people are not All Alone. I'd still run with HotO instead of Trampling, but that's another matter...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

I pretty much agree with everything above except for the last line. Assassins do not need a shadow step in their build for it to be good. An assassin build can work perfectly fine without a shadow step and self heal if you can snare the foe and/or run away from it.

I can't think of a reason not to run a Warrior over an Assassin if there isn't going to be any teleport action... so enlighten me.

Alleji · Apr 07, 2009, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Sometimes people are not All Alone. I'd still run with HotO instead of Trampling, but that's another matter...

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

[[Leaping Mantis Sting] is on the bar to allow spikes outside of [["You're All Alone"].

Don't attack people that are next to each other? Or attack and wait until they start kiting?

(And if they all are and refuse to kite, they're already dying to your fire ele/RoJ monk. You can take the time off to do some trashtalking in local chat)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Yes, but [blades of steel] + Deep Wound does far more than [Twisting Fangs]. Not to mention it's not nearly as irritating as using [impale].

I c wut u did thar. Maybe I should've actually read the whole post :V

Quote:

I can't think of a reason not to run a Warrior over an Assassin if there isn't going to be any teleport action... so enlighten me.

Assassin is about 9000 times easier to play than warrior? Even a complete noob can achieve the same results with a sin as an "average" player can with a warrior.

You'd be surprised, but this attracts a lot of people :P

ac1inferno · Apr 07, 2009, 09:14 PM // 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

I can't think of a reason not to run a Warrior over an Assassin if there isn't going to be any teleport action... so enlighten me.

Warriors do more overall pressure so are more balanced. While assassins do less base damage, the large bonus damage from their attack skill chains allow for more quick, sudden bursts of damage that can catch a monk off guard, better suited for gimmicky play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Don't attack people that are next to each other? Or attack and wait until they start kiting?

(And if they all are and refuse to kite, they're already dying to your fire ele/RoJ monk. You can take the time off to do some trashtalking in local chat)

Nearby is a big range. And you are right about attacking your foe until they kite, that's what [[Leaping Mantis Sting] is for. You can attack people that are next to each other until one kites, and even if they are still in nearby range of each other, you can still spike them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Assassin is about 9000 times easier to play than warrior? Even a complete noob can achieve the same results with a sin as an "average" player can with a warrior.

You'd be surprised, but this attracts a lot of people :P

That's not completely true. Assassins get a lot of negative image because of people who try them and are bad with them. They would play it the same way they do a Warrior. And here is what's wrong with that:

Warriors do not need to use attack skills to do damage. They can pressure around by auto attacking and swapping around targets. When they feel the Monk is pressured enough, they unload their attack skills in hopes of achieving a kill. Because a Warrior can pressure on its own, the midline can carry more utility, resulting in a more balanced build.

Now with Assassins, they need to use their attack skills/chains to do damage. They have low base damage so auto attacking does not do much. They would have to rely on the midline of their team to do pressure to the monks. This might all seem bad, but the beauty is that an Assassin's attack skills chain allow for more quick, sudden bursts of damage so the Monk does not need to be as pressured for the Assassin as they would need to be for a Warrior. But because the pressure would have to come out of the midline, there is less utility, resulting in a more gimmicky build.

God_Hand · Apr 07, 2009, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

As for [[Flurry] over [[Frenzy], why? Flurry makes you do less damage and lasts shorter than Frenzy. Frenzy is not a problem if you use it smart, and you also have [[Dash] to cancel if you need to.

Frenzy Sins FTW. It's the best IAS to have. And yes, I know, Assassins have 70 AL and less armor means more damage taken when in Frenzy, but it does not matter in the hands of a good player because they won't always be in Frenzy. They would know how to use it smart and when to cancel with Dash.

Flurry > Frenzy on an assassin. That 25% damage reduction only applies to your BASE damage. This means that instead of your daggers doing 7-17, then adding 100% listed skill damage, you'll do somewhere around 5-12, then add 100% of your listed skill damage.

So Blades of Steel will still do 60 bonus damage, not 45. Same goes for all your other dagger skills, or any skills that do bonus damage.

ac1inferno · Apr 07, 2009, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

Flurry > Frenzy on an assassin. That 25% damage reduction only applies to your BASE damage. This means that instead of your daggers doing 7-17, then adding 100% listed skill damage, you'll do somewhere around 5-12, then add 100% of your listed skill damage.

So Blades of Steel will still do 60 bonus damage, not 45. Same goes for all your other dagger skills, or any skills that do bonus damage.

With Daggers doing 34 damage on criticals, 25% less damage from [[Flurry] would mean 8 less damage each hit. Put that into a 5 attack skill chain that hits 7 time, and you get yourself a net loss of 56 damage.

With a team spike, a little less damage does not mean that much since damage is coming from the whole team.

But with a solo spiker that's trying to maximize the amount of damage it can do within the least amount of time possible in order to increase the chance of catching a Monk off guard and scoring a kill, that 56 damage means a lot.

Bobby2 · Apr 07, 2009, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

I can't think of a reason not to run a Warrior over an Assassin if there isn't going to be any teleport action... so enlighten me.

Warriors do more overall pressure so are more balanced. While assassins do less base damage, the large bonus damage from their attack skill chains allow for more quick, sudden bursts of damage that can catch a monk off guard, better suited for gimmicky play.

Should I have said -Hammer- Warrior? (point still stands)

On the Frenzy vs Flurry argument: yes, you could be losing up to 56 damage from Flurry (assuming all criticals, which is.... kinda optimistic), but Flurry allows for KDlocking without exposing yourself needlessly, which can count for a lot in mob fights. I'd run Frenzy on instagib (or whatever passes for it these days), but for a more pressure-oriented build like PS I'd have to recommend Flurry.

God_Hand · Apr 07, 2009, 11:30 PM // 23:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

With Daggers doing 34 damage on criticals

Wrong. Stopped reading.

EDIT: Crap, this is actually right.

ac1inferno · Apr 07, 2009, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

Wrong. Stopped reading.

Try it. 14 Dagger Mastery. 7-17 (Max) Damage. +15% while Health is above 50%. Equip [[Wild Blow] and [[Flurry] on your bar. Step outside Great Temple of Balthazar into Isle of Nameless. Use Wild Blow on Suit of 60 Armor. Record it. Activate Flurry and while under it, use Wild Blow again on Suit of 60 Armor. Record it.

I test on Suit of 60 Armor rather than Suit of 80 or 100 Armor since Guild Wars damage number for spells affected by armor are shown by what it can do against 60 armor so it makes the most sense for me to test the same way.

God_Hand · Apr 08, 2009, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guild Wars Wiki

Whenever a critical hit with a weapon occurs, the damage done is equal to the maximum damage of the weapon multiplied by approximately √2(1.41 approx)

Huh, I just tested, and I don't think this is right. At 13 dagger mastery, crits struck for 34 damage, and at 9 dagger mastery, they struck for 26. Multiplying by root 2 would give out 24, but that's not what's happening. So I guess you were right. But I digress...

Either way, let's crunch some numbers. At 13 dagger mastery, crits strike for 34 damage, or 42 if you get Sundering. 34 / 4 = 8.5, rounded to 9

Combined with a 7-hit attack chain, counting two hits from dual attacks:
Assuming you critical on every hit (Average damage is 34 without flurry), you lose 63 damage, or 9 damage a hit.

Assuming you land no crits (Average Damage is 17 without Flurry), you lose 30 damage, or approx. 4 damage a hit.

Assuming you land four crits, and three not (Average Damage is 27 without flurry), you lose 47 damage, or approx. 7 damage a hit

Assuming you land three crits, and four not (Average Damage is 24 without flurry), you lose 42 damage, or 6 damage a hit.

But I think this is beside the point, because [[Way Of The Assassin] + [[Pious Assault] / [["Find Their Weakness!"] + [[Blades of Steel] > [[Flurry] + [[Twisting Fangs] IMO.

So neither Frenzy or Flurry is really worth sacrificing a secondary profession Deep Wound and forcing you to run Twisting Fangs instead of Blades of Steel.

God_Hand · Apr 08, 2009, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

But with a solo spiker that's trying to maximize the amount of damage it can do within the least amount of time possible in order to increase the chance of catching a Monk off guard and scoring a kill, that 56 damage means a lot.

That's why you don't use Flurry or Frenzy:

[build=Owlj0tjspN1748/r/lwUY8PAAA]
[build=Owpj0tjcqNx5/X/T6mwUY8PAAA]

Put +1 helm and +1 rune on dagger mastery (for 13) and +1 rune on crit strikes (for 13), and you're good to go, son.

Bobby2 · Apr 08, 2009, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

But I think this is beside the point, because [[Way Of The Assassin] + [[Pious Assault] / [["Find Their Weakness!"] + [[Blades of Steel] > [[Flurry] + [[Twisting Fangs] IMO.

3 skills are going to be more damaging than 2 skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

So neither Frenzy or Flurry is really worth sacrificing a secondary profession Deep Wound and forcing you to run Twisting Fangs instead of Blades of Steel.

[impale], [golden fang strike], secondary prof DW's are just to show off

Apart from that, basing your entire argument around a single (Elite!) skill is quite shortsighted

Hanging Man · Apr 08, 2009, 07:02 PM // 19:02

I would suggest a snare, to keep your enemy from kiting.

And needs moar deep wound.
DW is a very critical condition that sins can apply rather vigorously.
A shadowstep is not entirely necessary but it might make it a bit better for the sake of surprising your enemy.
An IAS is usually a mandatory on sins and war bars. Flurry, like many said before me, is optimal.

God_Hand · Apr 08, 2009, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

[impale] [golden fang strike] secondary prof DW's are just to show off

Impale is in Deadly Arts.
Golden Fang Strike is an EotN skill, which I don't own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Apart from that, basing your entire argument around a single (Elite!) skill is quite shortsighted

What? Neither Pious Assault nor Find Their Weakness are elite.

If you're talking about Way Of The Assassin, well, what better elite do you have to run?

Bobby2 · Apr 08, 2009, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

Impale is in Deadly Arts.
Golden Fang Strike is an EotN skill, which I don't own.

You've already shown yourself not to refrain from speccing into a third attribute line, so your first remark makes no sense.

As for GFS: the fact that you don't own EotN is irrelevant to this discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

What? Neither Pious Assault nor Find Their Weakness are elite.

If you're talking about Way Of The Assassin, well, what better elite do you have to run?

Of course I was talking about WotA. And there are plenty of Elites just as good, if not better.

God_Hand · Apr 09, 2009, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

Impale is in Deadly Arts.
Golden Fang Strike is an EotN skill, which I don't own.

Maybe here's what I should have said:

Here's Golden Fang Strike: [Golden Fang Strike], here's Jungle Strike: [Jungle Strike], which one would you rather have on your bar?

Jungle Strike's Extra Damage + Find Their Weakness' Deep Wound > Golden Fang + Unnecessary Enchantment's Deep Wound.

Never really used Impale, but it would have to follow Blades of Steel, and I personally would want the target Deep Wounded BEFORE the end of my attack chain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Of course I was talking about WotA. And there are plenty of Elites just as good, if not better.

Short Version:

(Secondary DW > Assassin DW) by a much larger margin than (Secondary IAS > Assassin IAS)

Long Version:

If you're not taking WotA, then where's your IAS coming from? It's either none, in which case you're a fool, or your secondary.

So. Where's your Deep Wound?

You are now leaving IAS up to your Secondary, and DW up to your Primary. If you don't take WotA, you always end up in this scenario.

It's either Impale (end of chain argument), Twisting Fangs (throwing away Blades + end of chain argument), or Golden Fang (throwing away Jungle Strike + requiring an enchantment).

Or you could pull an about-face, and leave IAS up to your Primary, and DW up to your Secondary.

You could take WotA for a reasonable IAS and some crit chance (something not afforded by most other IAS'), and leave your Deep Wound to your secondary, at which point, I would suggest the Fire-And-Forget "Find Their Weakness!"

Bobby2 · Apr 09, 2009, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

Maybe here's what I should have said:

Here's Golden Fang Strike: [Golden Fang Strike], here's Jungle Strike: [Jungle Strike], which one would you rather have on your bar?

Depends on the build, eh

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

Jungle Strike's Extra Damage + Find Their Weakness' Deep Wound > Golden Fang + Unnecessary Enchantment's Deep Wound.

Not all enchantments are unnecessary/useless. [grenth's grasp], [conjure flame] say hi.

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

If you're not taking WotA, then where's your IAS coming from? It's either none, in which case you're a fool, or your secondary.

Shortsighted comment, to say the least.

My side of things:
- IMS > IAS
- Shadow Step > IAS
...if given the choice, of course. Both of your builds come with only one optional, so it's either Dash or a shadow step (limited to those with aftercast). This alone is reason enough for me to discard them for AB usage.

(well, I guess I could swap out BoS+sec skill for Twisting. Yay for bar compression)

Lux Aeterna · Apr 09, 2009, 05:36 AM // 05:36

How about this:

[wastrel's collapse][tiger stance][falling spider][iron palm][falling lotus strike][horns of the ox][impale][dash]

High dagger+deadly, low critical strikes. Quarry capper ganking in JQ. KD lock till the end of the spike...

infamous16 · Apr 09, 2009, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

How about this:

[wastrel's collapse][tiger stance][falling spider][iron palm][falling lotus strike][horns of the ox][impale][dash]

High dagger+deadly, low critical strikes. Quarry capper ganking in JQ. KD lock till the end of the spike...

couldn't you not use tiger stance since wastrel's disables it for 10 seconds?

and how long does wastrel's stay up as a hex for iron palm?