Curse

Kyp Jade · Mar 31, 2009, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Am I missing something? Borats last post was actually constructed and not a random jumble of thoughts

Lourens · Mar 31, 2009, 02:19 PM // 14:19

I would like 6 vs 6 im getting sick of not being able to infuse a kappaspike

Quote:

Originally Posted by iVendetta

12v12 with heroes.

Go play rome total war

Krill · Mar 31, 2009, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Balance is just as bad as it ever was.

If LC and PnH get taken care of balanced should get better hopefully. At the very least teaseway with palm sins no longer has a chance against balanced...a couple months ago at least 80% of teams were tease with palms , now there are about 10 builds in the meta. IWAY, balanced, RoJ heroway, teaseway, OoV spike, omegaspike, lichspike, rspike and contag. Even if you don't like those builds at least it's variety.

TheHaxor · Mar 31, 2009, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

balanced

Does not exist.

A few other builds listed are scarcely played

Reverend Dr · Mar 31, 2009, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheHaxor

Does not exist.

Once upon a time I saw some awesome Grenth's Balance spikes. I dunno what you are talking about.

TheHaxor · Apr 01, 2009, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Once upon a time I saw some awesome Grenth's Balance spikes. I dunno what you are talking about.

Touché. I forgot about that.

axe · Apr 01, 2009, 01:28 PM // 13:28

I wish this was actually a poll.

Ciric · Apr 01, 2009, 06:42 PM // 18:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Stuff

R-spike is simply not playable in 6v6 because you can not bring enough damage and healing. You will have teams with like, 3 rangers, 1 rt, 1 para, 1 monk, that is a very weak spike compared to normal spikes, and lacks ALOT of healing. OR you could drop the rt for a n/rt orders, but then that is very easy to shutdwon, and It can't stay in range to heal because it will get shut down. The spike still would be able to kill, but things like random guardian SoA and RoF spam are going to stop it, all you will need to do is stop the first few spikes and it's over because you no longer have a decent backline in a team full of pretty squshy chars. This is all not to mention that you lose a snarer, the hard interupter (leech), or the sundering weapon, and that the rend nerf really hurt r-spike.

LCurse is IMBA but will be one of those skills that is effectively balanced by 6v6 play because it will be easier to spred out. And there can be no full hexover jaggeg way because the direct damage minnion bombs got nerfed, I'm sure it will be tried by running something with AotL but it's not nearly as powerfull without the nova bomb spam.

Palm Strike is the easiest thing in the world to prot in a 8v8 or 6v6 match, teams will still run LS, follow 1 Palm with LS and the other with SoA/Guardian/LS if they arnt syncing them. I really don't see how people die to palm sins, the protting is so simple. However, palms of coarse will still dominate split play, but then again they are supposed to.

Endurance wars really arnt that effective without there super buffs so again 6v6 play balances them nicely because they lose their omega buffs, less fast paced spike options, AND the need for more shutdown/ lockdown will need to be covered by warriors in the form of KDs and Interrupts so hammer wars and shock axe wars or even conjure axe wars again will come back because they provide the extra shutdown and interuption you need, or in the case of conjure, they self buff.

The Energy Blast spike might be interesting, however with a 2 sec cast time, and the fact that it relies on their energy makes me skeptical. You would need all 6 eles on spike, 5 will only give you alil over 600 damage so a RoF would stop the spike. The 2 sec cast time means atleast 1 ele will be KDed or interrupted, seeing as the spike is only every 20 seconds, not to mention with no side healer, when they are spikeing you have 2 seconds to beat on them without them being healed or kiting you (I guess they could save e-prisum for when they are spiking, assuming they are all running e-prism meaning no real elites). All teams would have to do its stop the first few spikes so you can press their energy down and its over because their spike stops killing. Pure spikes already have problems when they are forced to heal hard and energy gets low, this spike gets this problem even sooner because their spike damage decreases. Lets also not forget that with a spike every 20 sec, if they do kill, if you res fast enough you can still keep them under very heavy pressure.

By more emphasis on player skill I ment that you can not have 1/8 players who is clueless so you stick them on a fire ele because they are easy to play. 6v6 will really affect teams of bad players with 1-2 good players carrying them because a) due to bar compression MOST bars will become more involved so they will be harder to play and b) things like positing and movement matter so much more then you have less healing to cover for them. In 6v6 you will see 1 bad player totally ruin teams on every map because of dumb mistakes, this is not the case in 8v8 where 7 other players can make up for their mistakes easy.

I agree with you on the ganking part for sure and it is the only thing i can find that is negative about 6v6.

I disagree on the point that teams will run more spike skill because there is no really good way to run a clean spike in 6v6, r-spike wont work, kapa wont, AotL wont, the only one that MIGHT would be the 1 WE, Mirror FC, and 2 glass rangers, but that spike lacks strips, and depending on the skills taken on the ranger 2-3 other things they need to win most maps. As I said before teams can not pack all the utilities they need, this will hurt spike builds more then balanced builds bc spike builds can not split hard on cap points if they have no AoE, can not have 1 runner and push other team with damage in 6v6 relics (they lose their spike), and can not do many other things. Again, not to mention the rend nerf really will hurt spike teams, bc in 6v6 you can keep 4/6 of your team pre protted easy, and depending on the spike and what monks you are running, this would easily be enough to stop the spikes for long enough to roll over a team because spikes cant be super defense balls now due to rend nerf, and need to squeeze more utilities onto bars.

Instead of spikes, instead you will see teams that can coordinate shutdown the best will win. With in most cases only 2 defensive chars in builds, it will be easy to lock down one and press the other. Teams with alot of strips and KDs will dominate the format and dom mesmers will become much stronger again. Isn't that how the game is supposed to be "balanced"?

Killed u man · Apr 01, 2009, 10:31 PM // 22:31

I was in a writing mood, I apologize for possible tl;dr.

Since it was a quite a long post, and you did bring up some good points, I'll just individually reply to all your paragrafs in the same paragraf style:

Rspike, just like any other spike WILL be weaker in 6v6. That's basic common sense, you're correct on that one. Do not forget, however, other teams will suffer the same condition, and thus there will be less defense to worry about.
We can obviously argue endlessly on how everything can be shutdown, and might not be as effective as other builds, BUT for the sake of it, I'll make a quick 6v6 Rspike that should be pretty effective: (Please don't comment on certain skills, such as how Heal Party isn't that effective in a 6v6 scenario, it's just for the sake of it)

[build prof=Ranger/Mesmer][Forked Arrow][Dual Shot][Savage Shot][Glass Arrows][Distracting Shot][Inspired Enchantment][Hex Breaker][Resurrection Signet][/build]
[build prof=Ranger/Paragon][Forked Arrow][Dual Shot][Savage Shot][Glass Arrows]["Make Haste!"]["Fall Back!"]["Find Their Weakness!"][Song of Concentration][/build]
[build prof=Ranger/Mesmer][Forked Arrow][Dual Shot][Savage Shot][Glass Arrows][Favorable Winds][Inspired Enchantment][Hex Breaker][Resurrection Signet][/build]
[build prof=Ritualist/Elementalist][Shell Shock][Brutal Weapon][Glyph of Lesser Energy][Vital Weapon][Water Trident][Grasping Earth][Ward Against Foes][Flesh of My Flesh (PvP)][/build]
[build prof=Monk/Mesmer][Restore Condition][Reversal of Fortune][Guardian][Spirit Bond][Shield of Absorption][Holy Veil][Aura of Stability][Channeling][/build]
[build prof=Monk/Mesmer][Patient Spirit][Dwayna's Kiss][Heal Party][Infuse Health][Draw Conditions][Cure Hex][Healer's Boon][Channeling][/build]

Lingering Curse is meta in TA right now aswell. That's a 4v4 format, as you know. Even there it's being frowned upon balance-wise, so 6v6, with HA's balled-up nature of maps it'll still be as OP as it is now...

Jagged is really just as strong as ever. I gues you didn't run into me running my jaggedway. Pretty much every other team did, and we rickrolled them. (Death Nova really didn't get hit all that hard, and neither did Jagged Bones) PnH is the one that keeps it in check tough. We overload them with hexes, and most of the time, we even whipe them in under 2 minutes regardless of PnH, but a coordinated team with a good PnH will beat Jaggedway. So wether or not Jaggedway will see a combat depends on the PnH nerf IF they revert it 6v6.

An endurance warrior spamming Power Attack and Prot Strike IS self buff. Every second hit orso will be a +40 damage one, way more than conjure can offer you. On top of the fact that it can't be stripped... So I don't think conjure will see any light of play, as long as it gets overshadowed by WE.

As for energy blast, I've already ran, and held, an alike build a few weeks ago. 7 EB ele's, 1 Monk. Spike is totally clean (100%), and Ether Prism gave us the buff needed to sustain full health and energy bars to live through the horidly long matches.
I might have mis-explained myself on that one tough. I do believe EB will be a MAJOR issue when 6v6 gets introduced (SoMW was 5 monks spiking with a 2 second signet, with a 20 recharge and also 130 damage. In essence, it's exactly the same skill).
I also played SoMW (Is there any build I didn't play? o.0), and the way you play it is: You spike slow (20 seconds), but every spike should go through... 3 Seconds before the spike: Throw up a ward of stability, aswell as a song and you've got a guaranteed spike.
Atleast you shouldn't die with 6 Ether Prism healers... (It's IV on crack)

Ok, when you have lesser players in your team, the individual skill of the player becomes more important to the team. Agreed. BUT that's a completely different thing than we're talking about. We're talking about team builds in general compared to eachother, and not 1 player vs his team.
This one is a rather tricky concept, so I'll just not bother to explain it, as I'll prolly just contradict myself. But the proof is easy to look for:

Go play in AB: It doesn't matter what you run, 95% of the time, winning or loosing simply depends on how many retards/good players you have on your team that know what to do.
In TA: No matter how good you are, unless you run the typical shitbalanced known to TA, you'll loose, that simple. With small variations, you'll NEED 2 Monks, or a Foul Feast, or this, or that... Skill simply become more important than they do in AB.

Now don't get me wrong tough, even in AB, running a good build gives you some (major) advantages, but in the end, you're really depending on how good your team mates know the map/what to do.
In TA, regardless of how good your team is, if you're Monk has dazed, and you don't have a FF you're RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed, regardless. Skills (bars) become more important...

During the old 6v6, spikes WERE meta, I don't know if you played then, but they definatly were meta. Aside from Dual Para hold way and jaggedway, it was always a spike-meta. Even then, dual para was more of a spike build aswell.
(SoMW, Bloodspike, Ritspike -in the end-, Eurospike, nightmare weapon spike, rspikespike, paraspike, sfspike, ...)

And really, if you can't see builds kill:

Kappaspike: 4 Kappaspikers spiking with Shard Storm + Freezing Gust follow up is:
(70+29 + 68+29)x4 = 788 damage, with 290 of that being armor ignoring. In a 6v6 scenario, that's a VERY reasonable spike.

Nightmare Weapon:

(53+5+17 (OoV - 3rits, 1, oov, 2 monks))*9 =675 life stealing spike (+63 optional vamp).

Channeled Strike:

137*6= 822 damage.

And the list continues. Don't forget, in a 6v6 scenarion, they'll only have to stay up against offensive 4 characters. So they'll be alot harder to kill aswell.
In a 6v6 oriented format, spikes, despite what common sense might have you believe, DO become more powerfull, simply because skills in this game allow for a "just-enough-damage-to-kill" type of play, and then go full defence/utlity...

Ciric · Apr 02, 2009, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Just a quick reply to Borats post. Don't have much time.

Forgot to mention PnH as the counter to "jagged way" since it seems you're more referring to total hexover with n/rts and minnions instead of the actual jagged way, but yes PnH is the main reason it won't work. Otherwise yes, a hexover will be very strong in a 6v6 format with limited or no off monk removals.

R-spike, even the one you posted just doesn't have enough buffs, wont go into each skill, but there is no mass strip (and u need one for KotH), and the only way for you to get all ur utility in was to drop a sig, something you can not do in 6v6, 2 sigs and a flesh won't be enough, it will take 2 kills on your team and its over. The damage is going to be about 150-200 a spiker + DW (maybe bc u have no GftE), barely enough to kill, piercing shields will stop it. The power of r-spike has ALWAYS been the armor ignoring buffs and you only have 2 glass and brutal. You simply can't fit enough armor ignoring buffs to be able to kill ghostlys, or high armor targets, the SS wont allow u to kill wars on correct sheilds still, they still have over 100 armor.

Point well taken on lingure, it is still OP but slightly less then in 8v8.

As for WE warriors, they really don't spam +40 every attack, while the power attack is clutch, the prot strike dossn't always hit, not to mention the best way to stop a WE warrior is to just blind/blurr, block him, WE wars just do nothing once they get blocked or miss a few times and their energy goes to 0, hince slowing down the spam alot. My biggest point was the extra lockdown other wars bring to the build, lockdown you will need do to the lack of midliners you can bring. WE warrs will still see play for sure, but they wont shine nearly as much when you need the lockdown and self buffs from other wars. Conjure wont get striped much because I've found, when making 6v6 builds, strips are the hardest thing to fit it, no good team will blow those few strips on conjures instead of attnments and monk enchantments so you can power press.

Still think the Energy Blast spike wont work nearly as well as the SoMW. But running out of time.

Point taken on buildwarsing, however, I still think the variety will be greater and the buildwars will more come into play gimick vr gimick, a good balanced will be able to cope with most gimicks if they shutdown correctly.

Out of time. Might expand on this later

wuzzman · Apr 02, 2009, 04:07 AM // 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by tha walkin dude

I think the 6v6 with no heros option is to allow for possibility of playing on maps other than UW and HoH. Without heros, 25% of the current player pool is gone, in the form of Gwen, Dunky, Norgu, Oggy etc... Then you add in the retreat of the people who cannot play anything else, prolly 50% of the player base. And, you're left with 25% of the current player base remaining, and the current player base is not that large to begin with. If you remove heros without reducing team size you will soon see the first 24 hour hold, all by virtue of no opposing party.

lol, this is where the golden stupidity of guild wars ever so informed pvp crowd decides rear its ugly head. history has taught us, or should have taught us that reducing the party size does not mean more people can play Ha. Your doomsday math applies to 6v6 as well as 8v8. A change to 6v6 with no heroes will quickly dump 75% of the Ha playerbase back to AB and RA.

wuzzman · Apr 02, 2009, 04:30 AM // 04:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

The existence of pugs is what is contributing to the downfall of HA. The more "reasonably well" that pug teams perform, the less guild teams are going to play. The less guild teams then the game becomes staler. Making HA more viable for pugs is going to kill the game further. Remember these pugs are people that aren't in a PvP guild, often times feel that they are owed something and that pvp should be completely adjusted to their playstyle, and are otherwise too braindead to take any initiative.

I wish I can put this in bigger capitol letters for even you to understand.

NO PUGS NO HA. NO PUGS NO HA. GUILD ONLY PARTICIPATION = 24 HOUR HALLS HOLDING SESSIONS WITH NO ONE OPPOSING PARTIES

Oh and your example of an Ra'er looking for Ra advise kinda fails to prove anything.

Krill · Apr 02, 2009, 05:14 AM // 05:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

when 6v6 gets introduced...

Whoa, you're getting a little ahead of yourself

All we need is a map rotation update imo, freshen things up a bit.

Underworld
Unholy Temples <-- must be played to advance
Fetid
Forgotten Shrines
Golden Gates
Courtyard
Sacred Temples

Having a mandatory relic run earlier would fix a lot of the retardo farm builds that only work on the first three maps in the current rotation.

Antechamber is such a downer after a full run, nobody likes it. And full runs are so uncommon now that shortening the rotation to seven maps wouldn't really hurt.

Also, another idea. Instead of having double weekends every three months how about last weekend of the month you get an extra fame per win (maybe 2 for 3+ wins) and HoH is up to 5 teams, KotH only with unique reward for winning. That might bring back some of the old flare and spare us from the usual double weekend crap.

I dunno try something different rather than something that already failed miserably though

Reverend Dr · Apr 02, 2009, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

NO PUGS NO HA.

Yes randomways and terrible pugs that can't proceed further than the first three annihilation maps clearly are the backbone of HA. Without them every Halls match would have multiple "no opposing" restart.

OR perhaps those shit pugs would stop and legitimate groups would come back because it is (let me put this in big capital letters so you can understand) NOT FUN TO PLAY AGAINST SHIT PUGS ALMOST EVERY MATCH.

If removing pugs from HA kills the format, then the format needed to die.

Ciric · Apr 02, 2009, 07:10 PM // 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Yes randomways and terrible pugs that can't proceed further than the first three annihilation maps clearly are the backbone of HA. Without them every Halls match would have multiple "no opposing" restart.

OR perhaps those shit pugs would stop and legitimate groups would come back because it is (let me put this in big capital letters so you can understand) NOT FUN TO PLAY AGAINST SHIT PUGS ALMOST EVERY MATCH.

If removing pugs from HA kills the format, then the format needed to die.

Nor is it fun to play against the same guilds, and get timer restarts, and 3 fame halls wins because there are hardly any groups forming. Randomway is pretty fun to play anyway and without pugs it would be almost imposable for players to get started in HA. And I'm sorry if you're playing against the same pugs it's because you a) are shit yourself and are getting shit runs or b) because you are playing at dead hours.

wuzzman · Apr 02, 2009, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Yes randomways and terrible pugs that can't proceed further than the first three annihilation maps clearly are the backbone of HA. Without them every Halls match would have multiple "no opposing" restart.

OR perhaps those shit pugs would stop and legitimate groups would come back because it is (let me put this in big capital letters so you can understand) NOT FUN TO PLAY AGAINST SHIT PUGS ALMOST EVERY MATCH.

If removing pugs from HA kills the format, then the format needed to die.

The format is already dead. And fighting the same shitty rspike guild isn't fun either. Get off your high horse, understand that any real pvp guild doesn't and never have taken HA seriously, and maybe just maybe you might be able to understand why guys like you killed the game.

Reverend Dr · Apr 03, 2009, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

real pvp

Get out of this forum with your month old troll bump.

If HA will die without pugs then let it die. That sure won't be a drawback for "real" pvpers. Oh, how are the wait times for GvG matches? I'm sure GvG is well and healthy, so much so that you don't have time to grace us here with your prescence.

Kyp Jade · Apr 03, 2009, 06:33 AM // 06:33

wuzzman wins thread, wheres my lolcats

LifesRestorer · Apr 03, 2009, 11:19 AM // 11:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Get out of this forum with your month old troll bump.

If HA will die without pugs then let it die. That sure won't be a drawback for "real" pvpers. Oh, how are the wait times for GvG matches? I'm sure GvG is well and healthy, so much so that you don't have time to grace us here with your prescence.

if you think gvg is healthy then you're RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing stupid

Killed u man · Apr 03, 2009, 02:18 PM // 14:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifesRestorer

if you think gvg is healthy then you're RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing stupid

I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but Reverend was being so... Otherwise (if you were being sarcastic), nice troll.

Wuzzman, go piss off. GvG is a fcking joke. W/A shitspike won monthly, rawrspike has been winning for the past year.
I love how when you euro's use a build with 6-7 defensive casters and a spike, they call it Bspike or ritspike. But when americans do so, they call it balanced.

Get over your elitism gvg e-peen bullshit. Your format is a bigger joke as HA. Anet actually has to take action against people FARMING the format. Yes, FARMING your oh-so-top-pvp-elite format. Even PvE is more serious than mighty GvG, as Anet doesn't have to go around banning people trying to farm it.

Stop trolling on about how bad HA is/was. GvG is dealing with the same issues HA is. Which is bad skill balance (better in GvG tough), bad format changes/choices (VoD, VoI, GL changes) and bad community. (Bspikers in GvG, PvE heroways in HA)

The difference is that when you play HA, you atleast go in straight away and have SOME fun. In GvG, you sit about 30 minutes to finally go in, and realize your facing a bspike, so you come to the realization how f'cked you are, but you're still to stubborn to all type /resign, and you give them the pleasure to farm your team over and over again.

Lol GvG'ers think they know something about GW. I tought I was an elitist prick, but damn, 30 minutes of QQ-forums, or reading QQ-forums alike posts here on Guru (mainly in my W/A thread) goes to show there is some really bad people out there who THINK they are the shit.

L2P and stop loosing to Bspike, then come bitch at us HA'ers...