Curse

moriz · Apr 06, 2009, 11:06 PM // 23:06

and here's another thing nobody has said yet: you don't run a shock axe/pr axe solo, you run it with a trusted group. the point of melee in AB is to keep the ubercasters in check by blowing them up, and not try to out cap them.

you certainly CAN run defy pain and abuse bad AI with aoe attacks, except it's undeniable that ele nukers can do it better.

Lux Aeterna · Apr 07, 2009, 10:26 AM // 10:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

and here's another thing nobody has said yet: you don't run a shock axe/pr axe solo, you run it with a trusted group. the point of melee in AB is to keep the ubercasters in check by blowing them up, and not try to out cap them.

Yep. Gotta have a monk. Sometimes I'll get stuck without a party, and end up essentially taking the role of caster escort. I can't solocap anything but single monk / double ranger shrines, but I can definitely keep palm sins off an ele. It's actually really cool and nice if lone melees can protect casters.

Plus with over 600hp, double sprint skills and healing between fights you're not as dead as you'd think. Just think GvG splits.

Hugh Manatee · Apr 07, 2009, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

and here's another thing nobody has said yet: you don't run a shock axe/pr axe solo, you run it with a trusted group. the point of melee in AB is to keep the ubercasters in check by blowing them up, and not try to out cap them.

you certainly CAN run defy pain and abuse bad AI with aoe attacks, except it's undeniable that ele nukers can do it better.

With defy you can do both, solo farm shrines if you have to with the tank skill and cyclone AND blow up enemy casters with dismember, body blow/agonizing, bulls or whatever ect... Even trusted allies might get rolled leaving you on your own, or it may be wise in a situation to spit the party(like having some guys stay behind to cap a shrine while one or more goes on to the next shrine, i've been in parties that have taken down 3 shrines like that at once while the other guys were mobbing on a res shrine).

Hell I've run [healing hands] farming builds in AB modified for speed and done well. When you got 3 guys hitting you with lightning hammer, hex pressure, or whatever without definite support you got to think a little about survivability.

I do like earth shaker KD chains there though, you kinda get the best of both. You disable a whole shrine for 3 seconds, AoE with crude swing and KD chain the caster types.

moriz · Apr 07, 2009, 12:36 PM // 12:36

a defy pain war's ability to blow things up is severely hampered by skillslots that doesn't help do damage. this is further hampered by skills like cyclone axe, which eats up skill slots with very little gain. and let's face it, defy pain is not going to help you against the elite ele shrine.

Hugh Manatee · Apr 07, 2009, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

a defy pain war's ability to blow things up is severely hampered by skillslots that doesn't help do damage. this is further hampered by skills like cyclone axe, which eats up skill slots with very little gain. and let's face it, defy pain is not going to help you against the elite ele shrine.

Actually it kinda did. You got to be good with double popping lions comfort with enraging charge and you get a lions pretty much after every cyclone, but you can do it. Though that is the hardest shrine to solo as any class but ranger, even other casters have to expose themselves to an air spike.

Sentinel's insigs with an air shield and a defensive axe on top of defy make that shrine pretty much impotent, it's a matter of timing lions between lighting surges.

360° · Apr 07, 2009, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Whenever taking tips conserning warriors from moriz, I always check this post by him.

moriz · Apr 07, 2009, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

Actually it kinda did. You got to be good with double popping lions comfort with enraging charge and you get a lions pretty much after every cyclone, but you can do it. Though that is the hardest shrine to solo as any class but ranger, even other casters have to expose themselves to an air spike.

Sentinel's insigs with an air shield and a defensive axe on top of defy make that shrine pretty much impotent, it's a matter of timing lions between lighting surges.

and all that will get you nowhere, because you are still slower than a nuker at capping, and weaker than a standard warrior (or any other melee for that matter) otherwise. you've traded all that for a gigantic hp buffer which may or may not help.

Bobby2 · Apr 07, 2009, 04:36 PM // 16:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

With defy you can do both, solo farm shrines if you have to with the tank skill and cyclone AND blow up enemy casters with dismember, body blow/agonizing, bulls or whatever ect...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

You got to be good with double popping lions comfort with enraging charge and you get a lions pretty much after every cyclone, but you can do it.

[bull's strike][cyclone axe][dismember][agonizing chop][body blow][defy pain][enraging charge][lion's comfort]

So this is the build you're talking about? You're basically a piece of scenery

Hugh Manatee · Apr 07, 2009, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

and all that will get you nowhere, because you are still slower than a nuker at capping, and weaker than a standard warrior (or any other melee for that matter) otherwise. you've traded all that for a gigantic hp buffer which may or may not help.

Who cares or is even disputing how fast nukers can hit shrines? Yes we get it, rayway or savana heat can clear ashrine in 5 seconds or less. The topic is warriors in AB, and if you can't hit a shrine on your own you need to take something else. Defy pain lets you do this, prage, evis, dslash, cleave and such don't. WE with a scythe would hit a shrine fast but you'd still be a little soft and need defensive measures. The + health is good against necro and warrior shrines' degen, the +9 absorption and armor soaks up a lot of the direct damage from the elite ele, warrior, ranger and mes shrines can put out, it's not an enchant the mes shrines can shatter, with cyclone you AoE for adrenaline and hit the NPCs with your attack skills till they die(which charge very fast between cyclone, lions and enraging), if you encounter foes bull>Dismember>Agonize or body blow>cyclone. I'm used to running with a rit in there too, splinter weapon on cyclone clears out a shrine fast.

And about the build, I meant agonizing OR body blow, depending on weather or not I feel up to try and interrupt stuff. The last slot is an IAS, usually flail, tigers, flurry, maybe burst, but not frenzy, it's just not safe to charge any of the npcs with the double damage thing. It's not something I ran a lot, but it worked and worked well for farming the NPCs and killing stuff in the way.

Like I said, I like Earth Shaker>crushing>Crude with hammer bash in reserve to knocklock the monk shrines or anything I manage to bulls in the open, but defy will 'work' here and in FA/JQ. AB=farming.

D A R K S O I F O N · Apr 07, 2009, 11:39 PM // 23:39

what is an effective warrior build for not only the npc shrines but also for the turtles to die instantly.

Lux Aeterna · Apr 08, 2009, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

Even trusted allies might get rolled leaving you on your own

So in otherwords you're useless while your party gets wiped, then you sit there sadly while 8 enemies kill you

Once during a round of heavy mob fighting on the kurzick doorstep, my teams annihilated 8 kurzicks twice - and after both fights the defy pain guy was still standing there uselessly with a little cluster of luxons around him.

3 attack skills with no IAS does not blow up enemy casters.

I find that defy pain users usually either are newbish and can be converted to real builds, or are afraid to go out without lots of defense and made deeply insecure by the fact.

Also: solocapping on a warrior is much less valuable when you consider that in a round where you need to solocap (ie your party wiped and you're losing), you'll be running into lots of single eles that need to be protected while they cap, and a bar such as you suggested won't really be able to stop a palmer from killing a 500hp fire nuker in fact it would probably be embarassingly ineffective and you'd wind up in a long duel with a cute ele corpse nearby.

Hugh Manatee · Apr 10, 2009, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

So in otherwords you're useless while your party gets wiped, then you sit there sadly while 8 enemies kill you

No, in other words all things being equal the dice don't always favor you, and if your healer types support types or nukers go down it's nice to be able to do something while you wait for them to res, IE run away, clear shrines and meet your allies there. Basically a warrior with defy or other defensive measures can do that, warrior without it can't. I mean the only difference I really see between a defy axe build and a another standard axe build is that if my party gets mobbed 8v4 I have the option to survive, run away and do something useful instead of eating dirt waiting to spawn.

I actually wonder something, does frenzy's double damage happen before or after defy's reductions? I think it would matter in which order the skills were applied but double of 0 is still 0....

The only thing stopping any warrior from killing a PS sin is crit defenses, if it's that big of a factor, you keep seeing whole teams of them in each round sort of thing, just take rend touch, rend enchants, gaze or something where bulls or cyclone is(it sucks a lot to lose either but I haven't had much of a problem with assassins lately so I haven't modefied the build) put agonizing in for body blow to screw up their chain, the little bastards drop dead.

isildorbiafra · Apr 10, 2009, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

The only thing stopping any warrior from killing a PS sin is crit defenses

Add Warrior´s Cunning and CD will be rendered useless.

Lux Aeterna · Apr 10, 2009, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

No, in other words all things being equal the dice don't always favor you, and if your healer types support types or nukers go down it's nice to be able to do something while you wait for them to res, IE run away, clear shrines and meet your allies there. Basically a warrior with defy or other defensive measures can do that, warrior without it can't. I mean the only difference I really see between a defy axe build and a another standard axe build is that if my party gets mobbed 8v4 I have the option to survive, run away and do something useful instead of eating dirt waiting to spawn.

My teams don't get mobbed 8v4 because I'm smart enough to pay attention to battle positioning, and if I can forsee when a situation / tactical move is an obvious trap. I'll do this when leading 8-10 person mobs too, it's a bit more difficult but still possible to rely on the other teams.

The game is called count the dots
I try to explain this to people, but they don't get it so I say: look at my pings and arrows, double your K/D.

Additionally, the benefit you gain from surviving a bad call on your part - ie, your party wiped, you got your party wiped , your team leader was stupid and got your party wiped - sometimes I f up and my party wipes, or they don't listen and and my party wipes. But even without a load of defensive skills, I can still make it out of most situations with rush.

For example, the other day my 8 person mob was stupid, didn't listen to me, and ran lemming style into a larger kurzick group (10-12). I went with them because I can't do anything without a team, and after analyzing the fight briefly I gave up and made it out by running through the large enemy mob with rush.

Sometimes the smarter teammates will actually make it out with me - the advantage of having a good party is that they die less, accomplish more, and feel better about it.

Anyway: defensive melee builds is useless or worse.

/rant

A question for you: can you kill a palm sin before a palm sin can kill a 450hp ele ?

isildorbiafra · Apr 10, 2009, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

Anyway: defensive melee builds is useless or worse.

/rant

A question for you: can you kill a palm sin before a palm sin can kill a 450hp ele ?

This is not HA GvG HB or even RA its AB. Your builds are great at dealing damage and are perfect for other arenas but you rely heavilly on others to keep you alive and that imo unless your playing with friends is a serious drawback. I prefer endurance to damage dealing any time. Like i sayed before in my thread you cant kill or cap shit if your dead.

Regarding your question my answer is YES I CAN!

Bobby2 · Apr 10, 2009, 04:53 PM // 16:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by isildorbiafra

This is not HA GvG HB or even RA its AB. Your builds are great at dealing damage and are perfect for other arenas but you rely heavilly on others to keep you alive and that imo unless your playing with friends is a serious drawback. I prefer endurance to damage dealing any time. Like i sayed before in my thread you cant kill or cap shit if your dead.

You're right; this ISN'T RA. You get to choose your team.

I can only conclude that the Monks you party with are really, really bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by isildorbiafra

Regarding your question my answer is YES I CAN!

Hahaha, liar.

isildorbiafra · Apr 10, 2009, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

You're right; this ISN'T RA. You get to choose your team.

I can only conclude that the Monks you party with are really, really bad.

Hahaha, liar.

I dont play AB. I prefer JQ 3,5k in 15 minutes is faster and better. Besides nowadays most monks in AB run RoJ....good luck finding someone to keep you alive. What i meant is that RA is 4vs4. Endurance builds dont do well there. Poeple will just ignore you. Plus you only get to choose your team in AB by 1/3 but have no influence on the other 2/3. (3x4)

I shit you not.

MasterSasori · Apr 10, 2009, 08:23 PM // 20:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by isildorbiafra

I dont play AB. I prefer JQ 3,5k in 15 minutes is faster and better. Besides nowadays most monks in AB run RoJ....good luck finding someone to keep you alive. What i meant is that RA is 4vs4. Endurance builds dont do well there. Poeple will just ignore you. Plus you only get to choose your team in AB by 1/3 but have no influence on the other 2/3. (3x4)

I shit you not.

It's not hard to find a monk that heals and doesn't run RoJ.

If you don't AB why are you posting here?

Lux Aeterna · Apr 10, 2009, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by isildorbiafra

This is not HA GvG HB or even RA its AB. Your builds are great at dealing damage and are perfect for other arenas but you rely heavilly on others to keep you alive and that imo unless your playing with friends is a serious drawback. I prefer endurance to damage dealing any time. Like i sayed before in my thread you cant kill or cap shit if your dead.

Regarding your question my answer is YES I CAN!

Defensive melee builds are useless or worse

Yes, my builds are great at doing damage and perfect for arenas, they're also 95% the same as the builds that anyone good at pvp uses.

I rely on others to keep me alive, but others rely on me to keep them alive.

Today I was playing AB and had some decent teams, some bad teams, and another including a female support rit whom I'd played with before + a monk who wants to gvg.

You can't kill or cap shit if you're the tard with 7 enemies hitting still him several minutes after a fight.

640hp warriors are perfectly capable of doing damage and surviving even with a dead monk, as gvg splits show, though one of your priorities should be keeping your monk alive, and a sin or warrior who loses all his hp in 3 seconds isn't going to keep on your monk.

On topic: is [heavy blow] worth using ?

isildorbiafra · Apr 10, 2009, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by MasterSasori

If you don't AB why are you posting here?

Cause i feel like it?