Curse

Snow Bunny · Apr 14, 2009, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

balanced stance <3

and during those 15 seconds im sure one can easily build up bonnis to compensate for balanced stance's downtime.

true.

but we're talking about RA monks, not you

Tae Lia · Apr 14, 2009, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Get a grip, PnH is not overpowered, classic e-denail, shame, diversion, blackout still own those types of monks. You could try this lil thing called adapting your build....Due to not taking WoH, a pnh monk doesn't have as large a healing spike as is often necessary in some teams.

kedde · Apr 14, 2009, 05:18 PM // 17:18

PnH is blatantly overpowered, don't deny it.
The thing is, what you're fighting with PnH is even more overpowered.

Neo-LD · Apr 14, 2009, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You don't have a choice. With no Monk against Monk, you can have anything up to 30 seconds before one of your team dies, depending on how good the other team is. You need to deal as much damage as possible as quickly as possible, and if you have to concentrate damage into prots to do that so be it. Of course if you're completely countered (eg. SoD vs. Warrior, Spirit Bond vs. Elementalist) then you have to switch targets, but against stuff like Shielding Hands and Reversal of Fortune and maybe even Guardian you hit through.

Completely wrong. Focusing your fire prematurely only multiplies the force of the monk's prots, needlessly reducing the total dps outputted by your team. This results in slowers kills (at best), but more likely a flawless defeat.

A single monk cannot keep up with unmitigated damage inflicted across the entire team. Once multiple targets are low and the monk is out of energy to resist, you can start riding targets into the ground. This whole process will take a little bit of time, but its the best way to go about things in RA.

Makkert · Apr 14, 2009, 06:31 PM // 18:31

thank god for Neo that still browses this forums to guide the misguided.

Lux Aeterna · Apr 14, 2009, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Completely wrong. Focusing your fire prematurely only multiplies the force of the monk's prots, needlessly reducing the total dps outputted by your team. This results in slowers kills (at best), but more likely a flawless defeat. \

With no monk vs. monk anything but a flawless defeat is highly unlikely unless the monk is absolutely horrible / smiting only.

I'll either get immediately get stacked with hexes / killed in <30 seconds, or else I kill the enemy monk who is quickly rezzed, at which point my team is already dead.

Don't play RA.

Snow Bunny · Apr 14, 2009, 09:04 PM // 21:04

I'm pretty much reiterating what Neo said, but it's apparently not sticking.

Well, in a mirror 4v4 Frontline/hexbitch/castershutdown/fortressmonk match, the team that doesn't focus fire on a single character will win.

Problem is that with PnH on so many monks, and people like me running a PnH smiter as a backup monk, the necro or mesmer that tries to unload everything on a single target will have it wiped clean.

Spreading hexes and conditions makes PnH pretty shitty with its 7r, and Sig of Rejuv and PS can't keep an entire team up.

For monk vs. no monk though, I like a VoR/Empathy mesmer though...stick that on a warrior and watch it blow up in frenzy trying to unload on something.

Neo-LD · Apr 14, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

With no monk vs. monk anything but a flawless defeat is highly unlikely unless the monk is absolutely horrible / smiting only.

I'll either get immediately get stacked with hexes / killed in <30 seconds, or else I kill the enemy monk who is quickly rezzed, at which point my team is already dead.

Don't play RA.

I don't agree at all. Its possible to quickly overwhelm even a good monk with 4 offensive characters, and most monks in RA are not good at all. If your own team is terrible then you would have lost monk or no monk, but if your teammates are not completely awful and res quickly, its completely possible (probable, actually) to defeat monk teams.

Part of this depends on what build you select to play yourself. I prefer BA Ranger or BSurge Ele, since imo they fit best with the 'carry the team' RA philosophy that lets you make up for your teammate's deficiencies, gives you the most control over the happenings of a particular match, and lets you win just as well monk or no monk.

Jeydra · Apr 15, 2009, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

A good warrior with correctly timed bstrikes and shocks will kill a monk.

I'm betting I can survive a good Warrior using Mo/A ZB Shadow Arts, which is a clearly inferior build in most cases, provided I get a hero which I can park in the map and Return to. You can bring a hero with Foul Feast to remove Cripple too if you want. Want to try it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Completely wrong. Focusing your fire prematurely only multiplies the force of the monk's prots, needlessly reducing the total dps outputted by your team. This results in slowers kills (at best), but more likely a flawless defeat.

A single monk cannot keep up with unmitigated damage inflicted across the entire team. Once multiple targets are low and the monk is out of energy to resist, you can start riding targets into the ground. This whole process will take a little bit of time, but its the best way to go about things in RA.

Yes you can pressure out a single Monk by spreading damage. You should too - but only in TA. In TA you have your own Monk to help keep you alive so you can be sure the team won't explode in 30 seconds. In RA, with no Monk vs. Monk, you are living on a time limit. If you don't score kills quickly, then unless your opponents are so terrible you can outheal their damage with self-heals (and not everyone brings self-heals to RA), you will lose. Maybe Shielding Hands or Guardian reduces your DPS, but the DPS that you do deal is all concentrated onto a single target.

Although I agree with you entirely that concentrating damage does less to pressure a Monk than spreading it, that's not the only thing to consider. What happens after someone dies? If his team is competent they'll res him at once (as in, <5 seconds). There're lots of incompetent players in RA who take 30 seconds to Res. Of course if this happens you've given yourself a really strong chance of winning the match. Another thing is, you might have a Ranger or PD Mesmer capable of keeping down resses. Again if this happens you've given yourself a strong advantage.

If you can get multiple targets low, all the better for you, but unfortunately most of the time you cannot. Sure you can test things - eg, cast Enervating Charge on a Warrior, which weakens him, buys you some extra time to score a kill and tests if he's running 2 Superior runes, is wearing non-max armor, etc. But if you play the match as though you have a Monk of your own, you're simply going to do worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

I don't agree at all. Its possible to quickly overwhelm even a good monk with 4 offensive characters, and most monks in RA are not good at all. If your own team is terrible then you would have lost monk or no monk, but if your teammates are not completely awful and res quickly, its completely possible (probable, actually) to defeat monk teams.

If you think it's probably to defeat teams with Monk without one of your own, tell me, why do all TA teams include a healer of some kind?

Lux Aeterna · Apr 15, 2009, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

I don't agree at all. Its possible to quickly overwhelm even a good monk with 4 offensive characters, and most monks in RA are not good at all.

This did happen once, but then we lost badly the next round.

I don't like watching my character die so I avoid RA.

Anybody want to go 1v1 warrior and monk and test this ? I'm pretty good at killing monks as a war so I'd like to try. Normally I build adrenaline pressuring the team before targetting the monk though, I can see it being extra hard 1v1.

Anybody who wants to set that up, it's practice for you too.

Celeborn10 · Apr 15, 2009, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

This did happen once, but then we lost badly the next round.

I don't like watching my character die so I avoid RA.

Anybody want to go 1v1 warrior and monk and test this ? I'm pretty good at killing monks as a war so I'd like to try. Normally I build adrenaline pressuring the team before targetting the monk though, I can see it being extra hard 1v1.

Anybody who wants to set that up, it's practice for you too.

Bring hero's with random BYOB that have as little synergy as possible to simulate RA. Superior runes are optimal to simulate the retardedness inherent to RA. Observe and remember the retarded builds your team plays in RA and copy them for the practice. Standard builds may include the traditional Wammo, Earth eles, minion masters or Surge and Burn Aneurysm mesmers.

This way practice levels will range from TA meta builds loaded with PD/PB mesmer heros that will make even the best monk cry, to the foresaid Wammos for you to merrily build that adrenaline on. Practicing for RA by 1v1 is silly and unrealistic especially when Mr. Murphy is thrown into the mix.

Wish Swiftdeath · Apr 15, 2009, 04:23 AM // 04:23

1v1 against a monk is ridiculous and utterly pointless unless you are a good ranger

you'll just prot yourself all day long

A good warrior will swap targets and cause you to use alot more of your energy

Neo-LD · Apr 15, 2009, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Yes you can pressure out a single Monk by spreading damage. You should too - but only in TA. In TA you have your own Monk to help keep you alive so you can be sure the team won't explode in 30 seconds. In RA, with no Monk vs. Monk, you are living on a time limit. If you don't score kills quickly, then unless your opponents are so terrible you can outheal their damage with self-heals (and not everyone brings self-heals to RA), you will lose. Maybe Shielding Hands or Guardian reduces your DPS, but the DPS that you do deal is all concentrated onto a single target.

The same principles of pressure from TA and every other PvP area apply in RA. You are correct that you have a time limit, but assuming you have a decent team that 1) has some degree of self-sustainability, and 2) res quickly, (and of course your playing a useful build yourself) that time limit is actually fairly forgiving, especially since you only have 3 attackers to contend with.

Kills are important, but trying to force them through with immediate focused fire is premature and bad. Instead, you should be seeking to disrupt your enemies while you accumulate your pressure. Mitigating threatening enemies can be just as good as killing them, and is much easier and faster to accomplish.

Quote:

Although I agree with you entirely that concentrating damage does less to pressure a Monk than spreading it, that's not the only thing to consider. What happens after someone dies?

A very good point, I'm actually surprised you brought it up since it favors my point of view. If you focus fire on one target to try to get immediate kills, you probably won't kill it. I reiterate: you probably won't kill it. If I were the monk and you tried it, you definitely wouldn't kill it. But lets imagine your best case scenario, and you actually do kill it: at best you killed it after a long struggle of forcing your damage through magnified prots and easy WoHs. The target will then be ressed. Where are you then? Back to square one.

Instead lets imagine that you spread out your pressure. The monk has to expend inordinate amounts of energy protting and probably still wont manage to mitigate all incoming damage. His life is difficult and he quickly becomes low on energy. He or one of his teammates dies. Either their entire team stops to res (giving your team even more time to build pressure unopposed) or fights 3v4 with only two attackers, which is even better. Either way its too late: by the time you get one kill the pressure has snowballed and even with res the team will collapse.

Quote:

If you think it's probably to defeat teams with Monk without one of your own, tell me, why do all TA teams include a healer of some kind?

Well thats easy, its as you keep pointing out: TA and RA are different.

In TA you can be assured of competent teammates who can execute a coordinated defensive strategy. Overwhelming a single bad monk is easy in RA, but it can take a considerable amount of time to break though a good monk with midline support and team defense. Therefore you need a monk to keep you alive long enough to complete that task.

Also offense in TA is far more lethal, such that disruption and self-sustainability are insufficient to survive. Monks are required.

Wish Swiftdeath · Apr 15, 2009, 04:52 AM // 04:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Also offense in TA is far more lethal, such that disruption and self-sustainability are insufficient to survive. Monks are required.

Mind Blast+distortion ele's say hai!

scruffy · Apr 15, 2009, 05:00 AM // 05:00

however if the monk doesnt have stances he is free game to destroy right off the bat with your first round of adrenaline

urania · Apr 15, 2009, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

true.

but we're talking about RA monks, not you

the build is kinda widespread now

Jeydra · Apr 15, 2009, 09:16 AM // 09:16

@Lux Aterna - if you want to try it, I'm game, message me (can't message you since you don't have IGN).
@Wish Swiftdeath - frankly I don't know of ANY build that can kill a Monk 1v1, including all Ranger bars. You're right it looks pretty pointless, but then I also know quite a few people who thought it was possible until they tried it vs. me ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

A very good point, I'm actually surprised you brought it up since it favors my point of view. If you focus fire on one target to try to get immediate kills, you probably won't kill it. I reiterate: you probably won't kill it. If I were the monk and you tried it, you definitely wouldn't kill it. But lets imagine your best case scenario, and you actually do kill it: at best you killed it after a long struggle of forcing your damage through magnified prots and easy WoHs. The target will then be ressed. Where are you then? Back to square one.

I'm not convinced, and I'll be happy to test it with you in-game. I'll pick four random builds and I'll put all four of them against one target. I bet that target will die within 15 seconds, regardless of what you do. 10 seconds might be a closer mark actually, if the damage sources are competent. Some random combinations that I can't see you surviving for any length of time: BA Ranger, MB / Distortion Elementalist, Assacaster, Unblockable Lyssa Derv with Daggers; Power Block Dom Mesmer, N/A Toxic Chill spiker, Surge and Burn Aneurysm Mesmer, Endurance Axe; Dev Hammer Warrior, Expert's Focus turret, LC Necro, VoR Mesmer; Shatterstone Ele, Shock Axe x2, Melshot Ranger.

If you think all these combinations don't represent RA, then consider one of the teams I had myself not so long ago. That one had:

Me/E weird Armor of Mist + Winter's Embrace + Maelstrom + Rust build
E/any Dual Attunements BFlash, LHammer, LOrb, Enervating Charge spam
E/A Deadly Arts spiker with Ether Prism
BHA Ranger

I'm betting you die within 15 seconds. If you can prove me wrong, then I'm happy to change my mind.

Also, people are going to res. Of course they will. But considering it's RA, it might not be instant. A team can delay resses for way too long, or someone on a team that can shutdown resses. If another person dies before the res goes off, it's a strong advantage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Instead lets imagine that you spread out your pressure. The monk has to expend inordinate amounts of energy protting and probably still wont manage to mitigate all incoming damage. His life is difficult and he quickly becomes low on energy. He or one of his teammates dies. Either their entire team stops to res (giving your team even more time to build pressure unopposed) or fights 3v4 with only two attackers, which is even better. Either way its too late: by the time you get one kill the pressure has snowballed and even with res the team will collapse.

You're assuming way too rosy a situation. Unless the stars align you don't have the time. Say you're in a 4v4, where I have a Monk and you don't. There's a Shock Axe Warrior on my team. How long do you think it'll be before he scores a kill? If we have - as we quite often do - casters on a team without defensive stances, kills will happen sooner rather than later. Assuming two competent players in the team (Monk + Warrior) I think the time limit is about 1 minute at most. If there's warrior shutdown on your team and the Monk's under too much pressure to cleanse it it can be considerably longer. Assuming three competent players (Monk + Warrior + something else) I think the time limit drops to maybe 40 seconds, even less if the two characters complement each other. With four competent players you might have 20 seconds. How much pressure can you deal in 20s?

Of course if my team is Monk + PBlock Mesmer + Flesh Golem MM + Defy Pain Warrior, you have enough time to pressure out the Monk. But with even one single good DPS character in the team can, unmitigated, kill your team before you can pressure through.

PS: Surprisingly enough I've found that the most effective RA Monk bar doesn't include prots. If you're shocked, don't worry, I was as well - but after I tried it out I can't complain. It's simply superior. Here's the build if you want to try it too.

Disciples Insignias, assortment of q8 shields, +5 armor Spear
Mo/W: 14 Healing, 10 Divine, 9 Tactics
WoH, Signet of Rejuv, Patient Spirit, Spotless Soul, Cure Hex, Holy Veil, Shield Bash, Disciplined Stance

The build is pretty damn boring since you can almost redbar the entire match, but it's also bloody effective. It has such bar-filling potential that it's incredibly difficult to pressure it out. More often than not when I play it, people die because I don't have the time to cast and heal them (they're tanking damage), not because I run out of energy. Sometimes it looks really grim (just had a few games that went that way) and I have to 40/40 heals, but nobody dies.

Neo-LD · Apr 15, 2009, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'm not convinced, and I'll be happy to test it with you in-game. I'll pick four random builds and I'll put all four of them against one target. I bet that target will die within 15 seconds, regardless of what you do. 10 seconds might be a closer mark actually, if the damage sources are competent. Some random combinations that I can't see you surviving for any length of time: BA Ranger, MB / Distortion Elementalist, Assacaster, Unblockable Lyssa Derv with Daggers; Power Block Dom Mesmer, N/A Toxic Chill spiker, Surge and Burn Aneurysm Mesmer, Endurance Axe; Dev Hammer Warrior, Expert's Focus turret, LC Necro, VoR Mesmer; Shatterstone Ele, Shock Axe x2, Melshot Ranger.

I'm betting you die within 15 seconds. If you can prove me wrong, then I'm happy to change my mind.

If you are going for one of the monk's teammates then 4 people on one guy is easy. Simple prots + heals, any player can do it. If you go straight for the monk you have a better chance since one of your builds might have some shutdown, but how will you execute that? The monk will be hiding in the back and will run if he sees everything coming his way. If you break off he will double back and you will waste time. By the time you get around to beating him down, you probably have started suffering deaths. Even if not you'll only kill the monk with a few lucky interrupts.

In any case I would like to know how you plan to simulate the varying skill levels and teammate unfamiliarity that are ubiquitous in RA, in your experiment.

Quote:

Also, people are going to res. Of course they will. But considering it's RA, it might not be instant. A team can delay resses for way too long, or someone on a team that can shutdown resses. If another person dies before the res goes off, it's a strong advantage.

Not sure what you're trying to say here, but I already addressed this. Premature focused fire leads back to square one once/if your target dies. Pressure leads to a snowball of deaths regardless of res. Perhaps you wanted me to mention that the monk team will probably have 1 less sig and therefore res slower on average?

Quote:

You're assuming way too rosy a situation. Unless the stars align you don't have the time. Say you're in a 4v4, where I have a Monk and you don't. There's a Shock Axe Warrior on my team. How long do you think it'll be before he scores a kill? If we have - as we quite often do - casters on a team without defensive stances, kills will happen sooner rather than later. Assuming two competent players in the team (Monk + Warrior) I think the time limit is about 1 minute at most. If there's warrior shutdown on your team and the Monk's under too much pressure to cleanse it it can be considerably longer. Assuming three competent players (Monk + Warrior + something else) I think the time limit drops to maybe 40 seconds, even less if the two characters complement each other. With four competent players you might have 20 seconds. How much pressure can you deal in 20s?

I don't think my hypothetical situation is unreasonable at all, but I think your timeframes are off. On the no-monk team, I would be exceptionally pleased if it took the monk team a full minute to score their first kill. He'd be up in 3 seconds (I'd res him) and we'd keep pressuring. In reality our first death would probably happen sooner. There are too many moving parts to make this into some kind of equation, but I will say that it does not take long for four attackers to overwhelm even a good monk. Combined with the fact that most monks are bad... you get the idea.

Of course a monk team with four competent players is the strongest team in RA, since its almost like a TA team. My point is/has been that since that type of team is so rare, a no-monk team with 2-3 competent players can and should expect to beat most other teams, monk or not.

A lot of this has to do with how far you can carry the team on your own, which is basically equivalent to how good you are and what kind of build you choose to play. Individual talent is self-explanatory, and I've already suggested that I think BA ranger and BSurge Ele are two very good choices for builds that empower you to control a match.

Quote:

PS: Surprisingly enough I've found that the most effective RA Monk bar doesn't include prots. If you're shocked, don't worry, I was as well - but after I tried it out I can't complain. It's simply superior. Here's the build if you want to try it too.

Disciples Insignias, assortment of q8 shields, +5 armor Spear
Mo/W: 14 Healing, 10 Divine, 9 Tactics
WoH, Signet of Rejuv, Patient Spirit, Spotless Soul, Cure Hex, Holy Veil, Shield Bash, Disciplined Stance

The build is pretty damn boring since you can almost redbar the entire match, but it's also bloody effective. It has such bar-filling potential that it's incredibly difficult to pressure it out. More often than not when I play it, people die because I don't have the time to cast and heal them (they're tanking damage), not because I run out of energy. Sometimes it looks really grim (just had a few games that went that way) and I have to 40/40 heals, but nobody dies.

If that build works for you, keep it. I have my own builds which I think work much better, and they include prots. Lots of prots.

minor · Apr 15, 2009, 09:09 PM // 21:09

[QUOTE=Jeydra;4583540

PS: Surprisingly enough I've found that the most effective RA Monk bar doesn't include prots. If you're shocked, don't worry, I was as well - but after I tried it out I can't complain. It's simply superior. Here's the build if you want to try it too.

Disciples Insignias, assortment of q8 shields, +5 armor Spear
Mo/W: 14 Healing, 10 Divine, 9 Tactics
WoH, Signet of Rejuv, Patient Spirit, Spotless Soul, Cure Hex, Holy Veil, Shield Bash, Disciplined Stance

[/QUOTE]

So PNH is overpowered but the best bar for ra uses woh.
So I guess woh needs a really big nerf....

Jeydra · Apr 15, 2009, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

If you are going for one of the monk's teammates then 4 people on one guy is easy. Simple prots + heals, any player can do it. If you go straight for the monk you have a better chance since one of your builds might have some shutdown, but how will you execute that? The monk will be hiding in the back and will run if he sees everything coming his way. If you break off he will double back and you will waste time. By the time you get around to beating him down, you probably have started suffering deaths. Even if not you'll only kill the monk with a few lucky interrupts.

In any case I would like to know how you plan to simulate the varying skill levels and teammate unfamiliarity that are ubiquitous in RA, in your experiment.

OK then, tell me how you intend to save one of the combinations I posted - pick one with shutdown just for the sake of it - in 15 seconds. Try this one: Dev Hammer Warrior, Expert's Focus turret, LC Necro, VoR Mesmer. We can try it quite easily, assuming we find players who don't mind spending the time. Just get four of your guildmates or something. After all, we are assuming competence here, right?

By the way I didn't say go straight for the Monk, and I'll say that piling one target in RA is usually not the best idea (although I still think you can't survive concentrated offense from 4 players in 15 seconds). I did write earlier in the topic that:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

When you concentrate damage I don't mean you concentrate on only one character, but on a few select characters - eg. you're against a team with Mesmer, Elementalist, Monk and Warrior. You ignore the Warrior as much as you can. Elementalist is spamming Flare with Aura of Restoration (= self-heal, not to mention it's not a dangerous build), you don't damage him either. You concentrate damage onto the remaining two characters, not necessarily one.

I'd like to see why you think hitting the Elementalist with Flare and the Warrior will actually constitute more pressure when in all probability you will do less: the damage you deal is less, or it's cleaned up by Aura of Restoration. You're still concentrating damage because you're looking at two targets, not four. If you are going to lineback against this team ... well, whatever floats your boat.

PS: Everyone goes for the Monk -> he turns around and runs -> shadowstep spike kills off a caster. I've seen that happen often enough. Illustrates something else concentrating damage can do: it tends to leave some ripe targets unprotted, and they might even play a bit more recklessly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Not sure what you're trying to say here, but I already addressed this. Premature focused fire leads back to square one once/if your target dies. Pressure leads to a snowball of deaths regardless of res. Perhaps you wanted me to mention that the monk team will probably have 1 less sig and therefore res slower on average?

No, but the Monk team might res slower on average because they might be worse players. In equal skill vs. equal skill, the team with a Monk is seriously advantaged. If they res really quickly, then chances are you lose anyway. Happens a lot in TA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

If that build works for you, keep it. I have my own builds which I think work much better, and they include prots. Lots of prots.

Have fun, I used to have a variety of builds that included lots of prots as well. I still play some of them actually just for fun. But after trying both options out I simply have to conclude that operating with no prots is better. Do whatever gets you more Gladiator points / more fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by minor

So PNH is overpowered but the best bar for ra uses woh.
So I guess woh needs a really big nerf....

I should ammend my original statement: PnH is overpowered but the most effective RA Monk bar in general includes WoH. RA has a meta, and whenever it's hex heavy you can simply roll through it with PnH. Yesterday I had my butt handed to me by Migraine + Frustration + Lingering Curse with hex stacks so bad that Cure Hex + Holy Veil can't keep up. But PnH can. It's a one-skill-wonder that beats two hexers, so yes I'm still going to say it's overpowered.