Curse

MasterSasori · Apr 06, 2009, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Any AoE is much better with KD lock, it's just arguing that "RoJ = bad because people walk out of it" is silly when you are defending fire and earth eles. Smiter elites, just like rit and paragon elites, are weak compared to other classes so a question like "do you want to spend your elite on AoE?" doesn't make sense, the strength of smiters in other situations needs to be evaluated seperately. And aoe elites are exactly what alot of fire/earth end up taking anyway.

I'm defending AoE fire/earth eles because they don't have to use their elite slot to do AoE damage. I don't see how saying smiter elites are weak in general justifies the use of RoJ. Using one of the better elites in a weaker att still makes it weaker to alternative characters that can do the same job. Fire/Earth eles taking Elite AoE skills don't have to take them. Which is the point I am trying to point out. Should the eles choose to take SH/Unsteady, ect - that's their perogative. But there are many good bars that don't require it.... and they can still bring AoE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Yes and WoR is elite, should this surprise? It's not like the compression hardly matters when rits are scraping to fill the 7th slot.

[Weapon of Remedy][Ancestor's Rage][Splinter Weapon][Soothing Memories][Weapon of Warding][Blind Was Mingson][No Skill][Dash]

7th slot being something random and not that essential. Yes splinter weapon does about the same damage to a 3-person shrine as RoJ, but it is far less useful against 2-person or human opponents regardless of how KD'd they are - so RoJ offers a different kind of compression. You can throw spirit rift on that bar but as lightning damage with a longer dleay, it doesn't do the job nearly as well.

You just gave an example of what a WoR could look like and many are good skills that are used.

[mend body and soul] should be a staple so that should be your 7th.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

It doesn't reliably dig out condition stacks with that long recharge, it's mainly there for aoe damage. Think of it as an ancestor's rage that's armor ignoring, with a bigger radius, and isn't spread out over 3 seconds. Or should I just try the "ensign said it's good, therefore it is" angle?

I don't ever recall promoting the use of Ancestor's rage in PvP - its terrible compared to the original.

If you rather have extra AoE damage instead of condition removal, then that's fine. However if I needed more AoE damage, then wouldn't you want to run an Ele instead?

branamanp · Apr 13, 2009, 11:13 AM // 11:13

i have run a m/me roj with arcane echo and include scorge healing and can clear all shrines of npcs including the monk ones in a few seconds plus there are a lot of monks that will try to out heal it so i end up killing about half of them too. just bec a lot of roj builds cant stand up to the ele does not mean they all cant.

Lux Aeterna · Apr 14, 2009, 12:19 AM // 00:19

The other day I was in a 10v10 mob fight on the bridge on saltspray... saw a bunch of nukes appear all over the place. Rushed into the fight, found out they were our side's nukes. Thought YES WE'RE NUKING! We won by a huge margin. In a relatively compressed fight, nukers have a huge impact while rays simply add visual effects...

Lots of nukes in a compressed space = difficult to avoid, easy for newbies to ignore, widespread area pressure. Most eles carry several nukes.

Ray of Judgement = one big easy to see nuke spike, nobody worth keeping alive will just stand in it.

Most people don't kite out of [teinai's heat] for example, but everyone knows to walk out of the pretty light.

MasterSasori · Apr 15, 2009, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

... but everyone knows to walk out of the pretty light.

A dangerous assumption. I've met many people with workable builds who can't PvP worth sh*t and like to take tan in RoJ.

But stacking nukes can be really good in cramped spaces. Something smite monks can't do effectively or without substantial sacrifices.

Lux Aeterna · Apr 15, 2009, 07:26 PM // 19:26

The other day I did see a necro die from it because I just stood there casting, additionally every time I see my allies cast one on a target I make every effort to keep people in it, but personally I'm often out of it before taking more than 48 damage... same for meteor shower and anything with the word heat in it.

FoxBat · Apr 16, 2009, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

easy for newbies to ignore

This is hard to argue with. It always complicates comparing AB builds, and can make skills like [Defy Pain] into something good. While my experience is usually running out of fire AoEs before taking even the first packet, my friends remark how astounded they are that people actually sit in the fire AoEs and do well with the SH eles. Ray is definitely more noticeable and people probably jump out of it just so they can see their avatar.

Lux Aeterna · Apr 16, 2009, 04:16 PM // 16:16

I'm beginning to think that in a cramped bridge mob fight, whever nukes more wins.

Obviously, whichever side has more players / better players is going to win, some builds go far beyond their obvious capabilities. In a crowd, fire nukers are going to apply far more pressure to a large number of people than a palm sin or even a skilled axe war could ever dream of.

FoxBat · Apr 16, 2009, 04:57 PM // 16:57

I don't see how fighting in a huge mob is beneficial anywhere but saltspray, which would be why I don't do it often. Otherwise If the enemy chooses to ball up into 8-10 people then you can easily dominate by capping elsewhere. Of course you know what map you're going in to ahead of time and can build accordingly.

Lux Aeterna · Apr 17, 2009, 04:08 AM // 04:08

It's fun.

I really don't like it when people say DON'T MOB DON'T MOB CAP CAP when we have an advantage and could easily fight for fun. I play ab to pvp, not kill shrine npcs.

Capping is the objective, but if an enemy group can be wiped in a short time it will further your objective more than running.

And everybody loves a good 10v10 rolling mob fight back and forth across the bridge....

glacialphoenix · Apr 17, 2009, 04:43 AM // 04:43

Quote:

I really don't like it when people say DON'T MOB DON'T MOB CAP CAP when we have an advantage and could easily fight for fun. I play ab to pvp, not kill shrine npcs.

Irritating when you really do have most of the shrines capped, but I've seen games lost because one side thought they had the advantage, got complacent, and didn't cap.

Lux Aeterna · Apr 18, 2009, 04:42 AM // 04:42

This is why I only ping my party into a fight when ...

A) I know we can win quickly, or can escape easily if we aren't winning quickly.

B) Doing so will not tie us up for long enough to lose point advantage.

C) We have a significant advantage and I just feel like killing kurzicks, although often I let them get away just to be nice.

When the idiotic ele says BUT WE NEED TO CAP (despite a 100pt advantage) and I lose an easily winnable fight because I'm missing a party member I get mad and flame and usually they leave.

PROTIP: eles never know about tactics.

glacialphoenix · Apr 18, 2009, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

When the idiotic ele says BUT WE NEED TO CAP (despite a 100pt advantage) and I lose an easily winnable fight because I'm missing a party member I get mad and flame and usually they leave.

PROTIP: eles never know about tactics.

I think that's because most eles I've grouped with build to cap, actually. Which is all well and good, but they're not necessarily builds that can hold out in a fight. I'm sure a bar full of PBAoEs is great for capping, but watching someone with that try to chase me down to kill me is hilarious. That, and, well, eles aren't the only people - there are lots of people who go "LOOKING FOR CAP TEAM, NO FIGHTS" and I seriously wonder what happens when three of those 'cap teams' enter a match.

Not that capping is bad, just that if you can't hold your own outside of capping a shrine, some team is going to come along and wipe you pretty fast.

tmakinen · Apr 18, 2009, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

eles never know about tactics.

Hey, hey, hey, HEY! I play (mostly) ele in AB and I certainly know a thing or two about tactics (as my guide demonstrates). It's not my fault if you pick all the bad eles in your team

Actually, it is a great advantage that 95% of eles in AB are singularly unsuitable for fighting against real players because it means that when you belong to the remaining 5% you are sorely underestimated and people just flock for the opportunity of getting well and thoroughly trashed

glacialphoenix · Apr 18, 2009, 07:06 AM // 07:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Actually, it is a great advantage that 95% of eles in AB are singularly unsuitable for fighting against real players because it means that when you belong to the remaining 5% you are sorely underestimated and people just flock for the opportunity of getting well and thoroughly trashed

My AB partner is not, I would think, one of the 95% either. Just that every other ele we group with seems to be. Oh well, if my enemy wants to throw himself at our nonexistent mercy, more power to him. It's like those people who insist on trying to cap and recap that shrine despite the fact that you're standing there and have managed to wipe them the last four times or so.

Alleji · Apr 18, 2009, 07:10 AM // 07:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by glacialphoenix

My AB partner is not, I would think, one of the 95% either. Just that every other ele we group with seems to be. Oh well, if my enemy wants to throw himself at our nonexistent mercy, more power to him. It's like those people who insist on trying to cap and recap that shrine despite the fact that you're standing there and have managed to wipe them the last four times or so.

Sin honor code requires that you attack the same ranger over and over despite getting your PS dshotted every time and then getting kited to death. Even if said ranger is standing in the middle of NPCs/other players.

I thought this was common knowledge?

Lux Aeterna · Apr 18, 2009, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Hey, hey, hey, HEY! I play (mostly) ele in AB and I certainly know a thing or two about tactics (as my guide demonstrates). It's not my fault if you pick all the bad eles in your team

Most eles didn't write the AB tactics guide...

Players who pick each class generally behave similarly, thus most rangers will act like each other, most sins, most wars, etc...

I think really 95% of AB players are dumb about strategy, but I've just recently had trouble with E/P's disappearing to go solo cap...
Actually what reallly gets me is when parties say "let's pick a leader .. ok let's follow Alex", then they don't follow me and we get killed as a result.

glacialphoenix · Apr 18, 2009, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Sin honor code requires that you attack the same ranger over and over despite getting your PS dshotted every time and then getting kited to death. Even if said ranger is standing in the middle of NPCs/other players.

I thought sin honour code requires that you chase the monk straight into a mob who is more than happy to meet you.

In any case, you'd think eight people would have more sense than that, but apparently not. That was one heck of a Balth farm. XD

moriz · Apr 18, 2009, 02:17 PM // 14:17

#1 rule of AB: be very strong, and VERY cowardly.

i find that most AB guilds, and spirit of faith/faithful spirit and co especially, to have the strangest "honor" system in online gaming.

Lux Aeterna · Apr 18, 2009, 09:45 PM // 21:45

It's not cowardly, it's count the dots. If there are more blue dots, blue wins. If there are more red dots, red wins (*). Thus by prediction you can simply save yourself a few party wipes.

It also helps to look at which shrines are capped on the mission map, and from that predict whether fighting or going somewhere will get you boxed in between multiple large groups of opposing dots and / or whether a certain direction would benefit your side's capping. ( <-- IMPORTANT)

Additionally, when facing an opposite group, it helps to click through them and look at their classes. Large numbers of strong combinations such as E/D, E/P, W/E, W/A, A/W, A/Mo, N/A, N/Me, Mo/W, Mo/A, will factor into the equation determining who wins an ensuing fight. Conversely large numbers of weak classes eg Mo/Me, Mo/N, W/Me, E/Mo, Mo/Rt, etc etc will factor in your favor as long as your group is strong.

(*) bone minion addendum: bone minions dramatically increase the number of dots, making it difficult to get a head count on the enemy team, but unless the group including them is extremely large their presence actually weakens the strength of the enemy team.

Join my party, die less.

glacialphoenix · Apr 19, 2009, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

It's not cowardly,

Judging from the screams of outrage everytime someone decides that discretion is the better part of valour, lots of ABers would disagree with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i find that most AB guilds, and spirit of faith/faithful spirit and co especially, to have the strangest "honor" system in online gaming.

Yes, if we were to get dishonour everytime someone screamed "NOOB RUNNER" we'd all be tempbanned by now, I'm sure... it's like, I know you can kill me 1v1. That doesn't give me much incentive to hang around and give you the free points, does it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

Large numbers of strong combinations such as E/D, E/P, W/E, W/A, A/W, A/Mo, N/A, N/Me, Mo/W, Mo/A, will factor into the equation determining who wins an ensuing fight. Conversely large numbers of weak classes eg Mo/Me, Mo/N, W/Me, E/Mo, Mo/Rt, etc etc will factor in your favor as long as your group is strong.

Actually, with AB, you can't tell... I remember that Mo/A who was actually trying to be a sneaky 'sin, shadowstepped to me and died without getting off a single hit. I personally run on "the longer I survive to keep healing, the better. The longer I keep my party alive so they can keep killing the enemy, the better." Switch as needed depending on what you play, I guess.