Curse

Zahr Dalsk · Nov 25, 2007, 07:29 AM // 07:29

I think ArenaNet might have better luck if they got rid of the PvP titles so that people would judge others by how well they perform and by how they respond to discussing their build and role in team, ie SKILL, what Guild Wars is supposed to be about, instead of by a time-spent grind-o-meter.

NoPantsRepublic · Nov 25, 2007, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Rank denotes experience in HA, which, combined with skill, makes a good player. So it's a descent indicator of how good someone is, since experience and skill usually go hand in hand. And then there's the ultimate skill indicator: reputation.

hi master ketsu

/wave

Riotgear · Nov 25, 2007, 11:30 AM // 11:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

There are a lot of factors involved in the decline of course, but one that I see getting smashed here is FOTMs. IMO, those builds WERE and ARE good for HA. Iway getting nerfed was one of the biggest original factors in HA's decline (along with 6v6 but thats another story). It was essentially the death of 90% of pugs.

There have always been zero-skill builds available to run. Bloodspike and its many incarnations, Searing Heat+Shadow Prison assassins, spiritway, ritspike, blah blah....

HA has had enough flavors of the month to open a Baskin-Robbins.

The lack of brainless PUG-compatible builds isn't what killed HA, it's been getting slowly killed by changes that keep piling on the damage and making players leave: The transition to 6v6, the introduction of capture points and the insultingly bad relic run scoring system, the loss of significance of gaining favor, etc.

There isn't a single point of failure, HA's coffin's been getting shut one nail at a time.

DreamWind · Nov 25, 2007, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

There isn't a single point of failure, HA's coffin's been getting shut one nail at a time.

I agree completely with everything you have said, but I think you underestimate the effect of well known builds being killed.

In the old days, most of the teams were pug teams with multiple districts full of them. Nowadays, you are hard pressed to find any pugs unless you scrounge around ID1. The removal of builds that everybody knew and required almost no preparation time are a factor in that decline, because preparation time is probably Guild Wars biggest flaw.

Robin Hood Uk · Nov 25, 2007, 04:30 PM // 16:30

im a R2-almost R3, i like to think im better than alot of the people that are under rank 3, mainly because i have alot of experience with a very good guild that had a great HA team. i consider myself mainly though, to only be good at spiking, as thats what i did.

well, off course i can play the builds like IWAY and RaO, but wheres te skill in it?

i really am struggling after coming back into pvp though, andthe main reason i feel is because there is no-one to teach you, give you that little push of encouragement. dont get me wrong, im not saying that i fell all you hardcore HA'ers out there should be playing with us 'noobs', i'm just trying to understand how we are expected to learn all these mistakes, with out being taught about them. i'm sure i make tons of mistakes, thats why i lose so often, but the higher ranks do seem to give the impression that they dont understand how hard it is to get holdof the ropes, and learn the ways of PvP. usually, its just /rank me, after explaining that i quite havent reached as far as rank 3, although i am determined, theyre like hahaha omfg noob, go get a life and learn to PvP. (note: i am NOT saying that accounts for all high ranks, i have met some fantastic high ranks that have not minded that i havent gotten so many ponts yet)

bassically in a nutshell(as im guessing you can't decypher all of this

), high ranks EXPECT us to get as good as them, but WITHOUT any help or guidance, seeings as theres very few who will help out, although it is alot harder than it sounds. i know that all you guys have alot more fun as a high ranked team, have better games and better runs ect ect, but please instead of replying with "omfg noob, get some rank pl0x", how about just chucking a few tips our way so we can hopefully learn from your wisdom and play with(or against) you someday as an equal?

thanks, robin hood uk.

P.S. great thread, i really do understand what you're saying, and its 100% correct

TheOneMephisto · Nov 25, 2007, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin Hood Uk

i really am struggling after coming back into pvp though, andthe main reason i feel is because there is no-one to teach you, give you that little push of encouragement. dont get me wrong, im not saying that i fell all you hardcore HA'ers out there should be playing with us 'noobs', i'm just trying to understand how we are expected to learn all these mistakes, with out being taught about them. i'm sure i make tons of mistakes, thats why i lose so often, but the higher ranks do seem to give the impression that they dont understand how hard it is to get holdof the ropes, and learn the ways of PvP. usually, its just /rank me, after explaining that i quite havent reached as far as rank 3, although i am determined, theyre like hahaha omfg noob, go get a life and learn to PvP. (note: i am NOT saying that accounts for all high ranks, i have met some fantastic high ranks that have not minded that i havent gotten so many ponts yet)

The ones that you're describing are the idiots. Most good PvPers in my experience will be willing to take you and help you along as long as you show that you care about the game, know the basics, and are willing to listen and learn. Of course they might not take you if they actually want to win, but most of them will take you for at least a game or two if you're polite and -cough- use proper english.

wuzzman · Nov 25, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

People have been blaming map mechanics for HA decline since 6v6. Since 6v6 triggered the mass exodus (HA would have still decline to this point anyway, 6v6 only accelerated in 1 month what would have normally took 3 months) people have linked those players leaving to all sorts of "bad map designs". That is fail logic. Those players left because of 6v6 NOT map changes. An besides the popularity of HA has never been how good the first three maps or, broken tower being in or not in the game, and various other changes. Cap points mean sh*t, relic runs mean sh*t, some new imported with levers, bells, and whistles mean sh*t, the majority of players who aren't HA'ing right now are not HA'ing because Pugging a F'ing Group is Sh*t and unless you solve that HA will continue to die.

You can discourage fotm builds by creating "perfect" maps that encourage "skill" and what ever you call "fun till 2 weeks has passed and now its lame" like ever other map change we had in HA. As long as the first map is a death match you will see Iway, SFway, and various other ways being formed. Why? Because they are 10x faster to form then a balanced, its not that they are better then balance, its just easier to make in reasonable amount of time. You can nerf all the fotm builds you want, won't mean sh*t, puggers, 90% of HA'ers are puggers and 80% of them that leave HA are puggers by the way, will either consider HA unpuggable and everyone leaves or find something else.

Dzan · Nov 25, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

It is so much easier to get good HA groups by backing in from GVG.

In my experience, it is significantly easier to get a tryout for a top 100 GVG guild than it is for an unknown r3 to get invites to random r9+ tombs pugs. Due to that, its much, much easier to make a name and a rep for yourself in high end GVG, and once you do that you will be welcomed in tombs groups regardless of rank. So even though GVG is a higher level of competition the entry process is easier, which is oddly paradoxical. Then again, once you are a well known GVGer you might not care about tombs anymore.

Given the choice of breaking into high level pvp through GVG or grinding fame the hard way with terrible low ranked pugs, the choice is pretty clear to me.

wuzzman · Nov 25, 2007, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

It is so much easier to get good HA groups by backing in from GVG.

In my experience, it is significantly easier to get a tryout for a top 100 GVG guild than it is for an unknown r3 to get invites to random r9+ tombs pugs. Due to that, its much, much easier to make a name and a rep for yourself in high end GVG, and once you do that you will be welcomed in tombs groups regardless of rank. So even though GVG is a higher level of competition the entry process is easier, which is oddly paradoxical. Then again, once you are a well known GVGer you might not care about tombs anymore.

Given the choice of breaking into high level pvp through GVG or grinding fame the hard way with terrible low ranked pugs, the choice is pretty clear to me.

number of good gvg guilds excepting core members is small....very, very, very small.

Apok Omen · Nov 25, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

I remember when people didn't want Altar holding to be the only option in HoH, that it encouraged bad, too defensive play. Then we got three more options(one of which got kicked out for being a Singank fest). And all of a sudden, people are asking for Altar holding to be the only option. I hear and see people complaining about Capture Points because it isn't the "essence" of HA, only HB and AB.

The point is, no matter how balanced HA becomes, no matter how much Anet caters to everyone's (yes, even the best players) needs, people are still gonna bitch and moan, most for "rank discrimination", some about non-balanced builds beating them, and few about the mechanics.

The thing about HA is, it tests the players in practically all the elements of the game(killing, capping, holding, running, etc.) HA isn't just about keeping a ghost alive(ironic, huh) with a one-set build(reminds me of Dryder and the gang back in 6v6.)

Go ahead, complain, but don't expect to be happy when you all get your presents and wishes granted at Christmas...

Dzan · Nov 25, 2007, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

number of good gvg guilds excepting core members is small....very, very, very small.

Depends how you define good. No dR and vZ aren't taking members but plenty of 2nd tier guilds are. And no one said anything about core membership, you start at the bottom, and if you are this mythical skilled-but-unknown-player every low ranked person claims to be you can move up in GVG rather quickly.

TheOneMephisto · Nov 25, 2007, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

if you are this mythical skilled-but-unknown-player every low ranked person claims to be you can move up in GVG rather quickly.

O man that made me lol. One thing that I think too many new PvPers think is that they're o-so much better than everyone else at their level when they're not. Trust me, I had that too, I know what it feels like, and now I know that it was wrong.

Tamuril elansar · Nov 25, 2007, 08:43 PM // 20:43

if Anet removed pvp titles, i quit guild wars.
why? because them i'm restricted playing with people that lack experience or so say, 100% suck.

rank discimination is a good thing imo, yes it might be anoying sometime, but i think its much better to play with people who are as good as you, else you end up the good people doing nearly everything for you and you learning nothing.

audioaxes · Nov 25, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

what i find funny is that many of the low rankers who complain of discrimination turn around and discriminate those of lower rank themselves
i cant help but lol when i see stuff like "rank 5+"

Riotgear · Nov 25, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I agree completely with everything you have said, but I think you underestimate the effect of well known builds being killed.

In the old days, most of the teams were pug teams with multiple districts full of them. Nowadays, you are hard pressed to find any pugs unless you scrounge around ID1. The removal of builds that everybody knew and required almost no preparation time are a factor in that decline, because preparation time is probably Guild Wars biggest flaw.

My point is that those builds have always existed, and then new/overbuffed skills are leveraged to create a new one, which is usually trivial because HA forces large-scale confrontations where degenerate overload builds thrive.

The problem is simply that when players leave, they generally don't come back. Some just lose interest. Some hate the new objectives. Some hate the balancing. It's a lot of things that have continually added up. The inability to quickly form a degenerate team build to farm HA is not one of them. How hard was it to get a Spiritway team going, really? Or Ritspike? Or Zergway? Or Heroway?

Tamuril elansar · Nov 25, 2007, 09:12 PM // 21:12

ow, and i nearly cry when i see ''R3+ or R6+ or R9+ Zergway/iway looking for one more''.

shoogi · Nov 25, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I think ArenaNet might have better luck if they got rid of the PvP titles so that people would judge others by how well they perform and by how they respond to discussing their build and role in team, ie SKILL, what Guild Wars is supposed to be about, instead of by a time-spent grind-o-meter.

nope, that will just cause more ppl to leave.

wuzzman · Nov 25, 2007, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

Depends how you define good. No dR and vZ aren't taking members but plenty of 2nd tier guilds are. And no one said anything about core membership, you start at the bottom, and if you are this mythical skilled-but-unknown-player every low ranked person claims to be you can move up in GVG rather quickly.

those guilds are hard to find too....

TheOneMephisto · Nov 25, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by wuzzman

those guilds are hard to find too....

No, they really aren't. Go to any recruitment forum and you'll usually find tons of top 200ish level guilds begging for players. Actually, tbh I've only looked through the teamquitter recruitment forums anything close to recently, but there's quite a few decent guilds that you could probably secure a tryout for.

Asrial · Nov 25, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

What I find interesting is...

The original poster is talking about how annoying the low ranked people are... when the original poster couldn't even prevent being banned on a public forum.

Here's how I classify the 'split' in skill..

Mature vs Immature.