Curse

axe · Oct 17, 2007, 02:54 PM // 14:54

There are 2 ways to make fame in this game

1) Time
2) Skill

The more you have of both/either, the more fame you will have in your title bar.

How to tell if someone is skilled? who cares, they will eventually earn their high ranks anyways, if they are really as good as they think they are, then they should be capable enough to

1) form their own teams
2) judge other players skill
3) build relationships with other skilled players of similar rank

Good players dont need to play with high ranked players to win fame, they just need to become more pro-active with the process.

You want to get a tiger overnight, join the club. Everybody that plays this game would love to get 4K fame overnight no matter what rank they are, just play the game.

elektra_lucia · Oct 17, 2007, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Holz

I never said I did.... I said experience is more important in Guild Wars than in FPS just like skill/talent is more important in FPS than in Guild Wars (imo). If I let a friend of mine play CS:S and he scores headshots right away, I know he has some talent even though he doesn't know where to go on e.g. de_dust2, knowledge like can be learned by most of the playerbase.

CS:S is a buggy FPS. I remember back when I played with mTw, Ocrana and some decent teams (irc pick up). I got flash banged, held down fire and shot where I thought they were... Then when the screen went normal I realised I'd aced the team with headshots :>. I'm not being sarcastic when I say I was probably aiming closer to their feet than their head... Out of all FPS's I'd say I'm the worst at CS/CS:S too.

Experience is equally important in FPS as GW. Although I don't know whether talent is more important.

Like I explained about knowing where to pre fire, safer places to camp, experience of where a nade will go. The bug in CS where you put silencer and changing weapon. Jumping down with AWP, pressing back and then shooting to avoid gun mechanics. They're just experienced base things which, without them will make you fail.

It's hard to say if talent is more important in FPS to be a great player. So many teams do well, but they simply aren't great. You can do well in FPS without being 'great'. There is very very few talented people. I would think that WM were talented. They were great

.

SK 2003 were talented, and great.

Also depends on what you define as talent. You can be talented with nice movement, or smart decisions. Well this can be applied to guild wars. Leaders that make smart decisions are highly important and so is every individual who makes a smart decision.

Quote:

I know he has some talent even though he doesn't know where to go on

This is not so, because you can lower your mouse sensitivity and get a good aim. Say, 100cm/360 - but you will react bad, and without the experience of where you should be pre-aiming or pre-firing, talent will not help.

Quote:

Knowledge>Skill>Aim. I play HL2DM:CTF

I don't think that knowledge is necessarily > skill but HL2DM has no good players in it anyway, so can't really compare to that game in my opinion.

Quote:

aswell you will find a well organized averagely skilled team will 90% beat any elite skilled team which doesnt work on teamwork/strategies

Not entirely true for FPS in general. If timing armours, orbs and what not is important. You have each player dedicate himself to one area of the map, then so long as you say before the match what places each person should be at skilled people won't need to work on team work to beat average skilled team.

Quote:

Rank elitism is all nice and good, but at least try to help the noobs... maybe you might get someone who is new and genuinely wants to learn the ropes invite new players to your group and judge them by their attitude instead of their rank.

As I said before, how many PVE players that go to PVP have given free droks runs? Not many. Usually ALL The PVE players I've asked for help at one point 'sorry, I hate running', 'sorry that's boring'. Want to HA 'SURE!!!!!'.

Quote:

That's what you get with three more flexible and pleasantly mannered people who put up with a whiny, stubborn jerkoff to the very end.

The whole scenario is an example of how bad leaders run a group though. They shouldn't ask for ping to begin with, they should give a bar to run - then if the player won't run it, kick. GG.

As long as you are telling yourself GW doesn't take skill or something you won't really improve much.

Quote:

I'm not entirely certain that's the case anymore.

I am

.

auch · Oct 17, 2007, 07:24 PM // 19:24

i agree most times i go in this section theres always some thread with some 1 crying about *rank discrimination* [skill]Cry Of Frustration[/skill]

ksalanpang · Oct 17, 2007, 09:52 PM // 21:52

I still remember the time when I had about 12 fame on my Hero rank bar. I was still in some US/Euro PvE guild. Clearly, that's how people define what a nub is. I was farming fame by playing the lowest lvl of meta build back then. That was VIM/VIMWAY. It doesn't require much skill to use what's given on the bars, and yes it's not a spike build, it's just a pressure build. It doesn't require too much coordination between the pugs. During that time smiteball was killing all the VIM builds. Coz, if you don't ball up (most cases Alter cap). Party won't get heal from healing spring. I still don't remember why I care much about fame. So that's how I farmed my r3. That's when my deer comes in. With the r3, I was able to get in some r5+ unmodded IWAY teams with someone hooking me up. That got me about half way thru r4. That's when the dual smite got popular since the introduction of the Faction skill Air of Enchantment. You heard single/dual/triple smite all the time. Then all of a sudden HA was full of A/W shovesins. I got my r4 from dual smite pugs. OMG..I won hall with my name the first time. I was like "GG..my name will show up on everyone's screen" <--screamed the hell out of my lung. I never compare myself to any high ranked players. I knew I wasn't quite there yet. So I kept farming and farming. Played a couple Bspike in HA and found a guild that fits my nationality to stay. That was called Lost N Found. That's actually a I Seek Guild H K's smurf. I had no idea what their modded iway did. They gave me a ranger oath spiritspammer bar with maelstrom. So I went with it. Then held hall the first night I joined them. After HA turned into a carnival with the new 6vs6 format. Some builds clearly just won't work. That really cleaned up some builds.

I sure all of you remember how [DeeR] hold hall with that balanced build with SoR/Incoming para so called 'Holding Build'. Then people start copying the build and form up holding build LF rX+. Some people even started anti-holding. LOL. So pretty much their objective is to not let DeeR's build hold. After Incoming got nerfed. I came across with I Seek Guild H K that holds/wins hall at least once a night. I asked if they would accept r4 almost r5 player for HA. Because of my background and nationality. They kindly accepted me even their leader was r10. The leader asked what build did I usually play at that time. So I said I play monk in dual smite. And then I asked him, "Can you teach/show me how you monk? I see you heal party all the time in Hoh, where'd your energy come from O.O? . He gave me the healer's boon bar and I did a couple runs with it. I immediately found out my monkability is far lower than my leader's. That's going to take some time to at least catch up. I got settled playing prot monk later on and learned more and more not just from the leader, but also the other loyal core guildies (They were r7-9). One time that I never regret playing with them was they never say who's rank what who's high rank, low rank etc. I played warriors for them too, once they knew me a little better. I bambi on observer with my real account

.

GW is about whether you've common sense the most part, then experience and lastly skill. If you're a team player that knows your role and willing to listen, your gw career will be like a breeze. Stubborn, hardheaded folks could be good players if they play a lot and got friends that accept him. Other than that, they're nothing but just some guy1 that's not successful even they're high ranked. Being a good leader is another story. I'm not talking about caller, but leader.

If I never had a coach in gw, I'd not get a copy of nightfall and gwen for pvp.
And I'd never be able to play monk and warrior in pvp.

Some friends ask me to monk for r8 group when I was r4. They wanted me to show them what a rank 4 can do in a rank 8 group. I was so pumped up and all that. Although I got great reflexes, I lacked of experience in some other aspects in halls. So I was doing fine against spike builds but not general pressure. I think that really explains what rank mean. I don't know if anyone recall me saying having a player's profile which includes "Battles you've fought with your profession in PvP". At least someone would know how much experience you've with a profession. Pretty much like the Battlefield 2 and 2142 player's profile. It tells people how much time he/she spent on Assault kit, recon kit, Engineer kit, Support kit.

My happiest moment in gw was earning favor for Taiwan server for the fellow Chinese region players. All the ganking in three way maps still made us the team won at the end.

elektra_lucia · Oct 17, 2007, 10:07 PM // 22:07

That's a really good idea (last bit). I think that would also help for the people accused of IWAYing? Although, then you might get monks who get told they monk spiked or dual smite, but yeah.

A title to say:

10,000 PvP Battles with monk. Which could be across all monk chars.
Or even, w/e. Then for the shock warriors, they could have a title for W/e.

And not be told they IWAY if they had a warrior title XD.

ksalanpang · Oct 18, 2007, 06:31 PM // 18:31

Problem is,..it's a bit too late. Unless ANET has all the players' past activities archive somewhere. Or else, this is just not possible to re-create title like what you mentioned.

But whatever...this might be constructive for GW2 rather than the problematic gw1 now.

Physical · Oct 18, 2007, 07:13 PM // 19:13

For everything I understand I totally agree with you.
I'm also a low rank (3) player that ofcourse want to get a higher rank, but my main problem is also the leaving people after losing only 1 battle.. Instead of trying again..

I'm sure I'm not as good as those high ranked people, I wish I could be..
I observe HoH alot and stuff, and I see people doing such fantastic and amazing things!
(Like the monks healing the Ghostly with King of the Hill and stuff.. Sometime's I just can't believe it..)

But what I don't like about being a low rank, is this:
More and more people are getting high ranks. As a low rank, you just have so little chance for even winning like 3 battles..

If you get into HA, your first match has like a 50% chance to win.. then your second only 25%.. That makes a 12.5% you will get a total of 3 fame instead of 1. I don't know if you get my point here, but I think it's to late to be a low rank atm. It will cost you much and much more energy to gain ranks than 2 years ago, because everbody was less experienced back then..

Lord Natural · Oct 18, 2007, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Physical

If you get into HA, your first match has like a 50% chance to win.. then your second only 25%.. That makes a 12.5% you will get a total of 3 fame instead of 1. I don't know if you get my point here, but I think it's to late to be a low rank atm. It will cost you much and much more energy to gain ranks than 2 years ago, because everbody was less experienced back then..

I disagree. It is and it always has been a pain in the ass to go from unranked to r3/r6. Even back in 2005 it was the same story; No one will invite me, my unranked groups go nowhere, etc. Unless you're lucky enough to start HA with an active guild, or get picked up by a more experienced team willing to play good samaritan, the process of ranking up hasn't changed significantly. HA activity has probably declined on the whole which may slow down the ranking process a little, but there are always like-minded people looking for their rank.

If anything you now have the benefit of semi-regular double fame weekends, which weren't around for us back in those days. Even plugging away at UW/Burial mounds will net you your bambi/wolf, if you put enough hours in. You may have to play some lame builds to grind it out, but at least you'll be gaining familiarity with the maps and objectives.

Chris Blackstar · Oct 19, 2007, 02:04 AM // 02:04

The biggest problem I have with high ranked players is that they earned their rank threw fame farming using flavor of the month builds, until they got high enough to get with a high ranked group, then they became more experienced.

So to me, rank means shit. What is importain is that you go with the team build, you listen to the leaders and follow their instructions. Your play reaction depends on your conection speeds, if you lag even just a little it seems like you missed. Your play experience varies on how long you have played the game as a whole and understand the skills being used.

I am a low ranked player, but I have leaned that sometimes being a good follower wins you more points with a high ranked team then having a high rank.

Nadia Roark · Oct 19, 2007, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

The biggest problem I have with high ranked players is that they earned their rank threw fame farming using flavor of the month builds, until they got high enough to get with a high ranked group, then they became more experienced.

Yeah. My favorite is occasionally I'll meet someone who outranks me yet displays a staggering ignorance of either current or past HA metas and how to overcome them. Sometimes they'll attempt (since I'm only a r9) to tell me that the team should listen to him because he's a higher rank. Invariably the next words out of my mouth are: "How much of it was double fame?" The answer is usually silence. I may "only" have 5600 fame but only like... ten points of it came from double fame.

But as far as FoTM abuse goes, that's just the way of the game. I've met some old IWAYers that actually went and made decent players of themselves, and BSpike veterans can be good callers. The problem I have with the meta as it is right now is that it doesn't teach its users anything useful about the game-- RaO thumping doesn't teach you how to run frontline effectively and it sure as hell doesn't help new players learn how to call; and backlining with a N/Rt with their infinite energy does nothing to prepare one for the rigors of backlining without exploiting Soul Reaping. That's not to say that spiritwat players can't be good eventually--just that it won't happen until they get bored with that build and run something that actually requires some degree of perception and reaction.

Lord Natural · Oct 19, 2007, 03:14 AM // 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Blackstar

The biggest problem I have with high ranked players is that they earned their rank threw fame farming using flavor of the month builds, until they got high enough to get with a high ranked group, then they became more experienced.

So to me, rank means shit.

That's a common attitude among low or unranked players. Not saying that as a criticism, it merely is what it is. Emoting in an outpost almost always follows with the obligatory "iwayed", or "ebayed" from a bitter player.

Though I agree with Nadia in one sense, and have experienced the same issues, I still feel rank is the second most valid pvp title next to champion, in the sense that it displays some relative pvp experience. Assuming you have no champion title, the first thing most pugs or new guilds will look for is a rank title. It at least demonstrates familiarity with the 8v8 format, which is key.

The best example I can give is from personal experience. I played a lot of HA and GvG in 2006, then I quit for a while and my guild went to WoW. So for most of 2007 I've been semi-inactive, playing some arenas, pve, etc. So just recently my guild decided to give GW another shot, and I'm finding it a far greater adjustment adapting from arena play to GvG play, then I remember it being in my first jump from HA to GvG. I'm not saying the rank system is foolproof; you will find players who one-shotted all the way up the ranks. But I still believe HA is a better GvG prep than arenas. So in that respect, rank does mean something.

Like a lot of players I too explored fotm builds as a platform to better things, though not exclusively. I believe it a misconception that exploring fotms is evil and pointless, if you're into HA. I found at the time that the best way to understand how to beat a build was to play it. I tried everything at least once; Air spike; Blood spike; Ranger spike; IWAY; VIM; shit, even some late-night eoe bomb. I had the good fortune of having a pve guild which was extending itself into HA, so in my off-time I'd play and understand these various fotm's, their strength's and weaknesses, and in my guild time I was in a much better place to help us design normal builds and lead us past these various one dimensional builds. So you get your base rank, whether it be 3 or 6, and hopefully a good working knowledge on how to best beat the builds you just played. I'm also not afraid to admit that a lot of times those builds were just fun as hell to play. It was a lot like FPS, in that you could run around blowing shit up without thinking too much. The key with fotm's, if you decide to use them at all, is moderation.

elektra_lucia · Oct 19, 2007, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

The biggest problem I have with high ranked players is that they earned their rank threw fame farming using flavor of the month builds, until they got high enough to get with a high ranked group, then they became more experienced.

I wouldn't mind so much if you said generally they did this, but you made it sound like they're all like that... Now I might say to a player 'go play lame builds to get bambi and then play better builds' that doesn't mean I DID IT.

That's the only way I can think you'd make such a bold statement, unless of course you really think that. Which is weird. Oh well.

Quote:

Your play reaction depends on your conection speeds, if you lag even just a little it seems like you missed.

Let me guess, a rally car driver reaction depends on what car he's in, and only that?

Quote:

I believe it a misconception that exploring fotms is evil and pointless, if you're into HA. I found at the time that the best way to understand how to beat a build was to play it. I tried everything at least once

<3

Quote:

So to me, rank means shit.

Even if all the high ranked players, played fotm only. That's still generally better than players who have played nothing and don't understand the map, yes? If yes, you've contradicted yourself that rank means 'shit'.

Omniclasm · Oct 19, 2007, 03:51 AM // 03:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by axe

There are 2 ways to make fame in this game

1) Time
2) Skill

The more you have of both/either, the more fame you will have in your title bar.

How to tell if someone is skilled? who cares, they will eventually earn their high ranks anyways, if they are really as good as they think they are, then they should be capable enough to

1) form their own teams
2) judge other players skill
3) build relationships with other skilled players of similar rank

Good players dont need to play with high ranked players to win fame, they just need to become more pro-active with the process.

You want to get a tiger overnight, join the club. Everybody that plays this game would love to get 4K fame overnight no matter what rank they are, just play the game.

Some people do actually play for fun, not everyone needs the false ego boost from being able the /rank the noobzors.

Aramaki [LUX] · Oct 19, 2007, 06:19 AM // 06:19

so, i'm a total noob to HA (i'm just starting to work with some of my guildies in TA to unlock it

). Anyways, i'm not trying to get my fame, 'cause titles don't impress me much or appeal to me (just my play style). I play GW because i like it. It's fun. Additionally, i don't like playing a game and not improving at it. I try being the best i can be at it (street fighter comes to mind... so many hours that i don't reget

).

I was kinda wondering... what are some tips to someone like me who wants to start picking fights with the big kids and not get my ass handed to me?

I know i'm not gonna go in there my first attempt and kick butt, it's a team thing. It's not about me as much as it is about the team working as one. Luckily, my guild has always worked as a team, mostly from AB, but with really good leaders. I found that when i was new to it their experience and abilities as a leader helped me improve amazingly fast. Now, a few of my guildies who have some experience with HA and GvG are helping me as i get my feet wet in it as well.

I'm not asking for builds... heck i probably don't even know what to ask for, yet... that's how much i know... but any tips to point me in the right direction so i can start asking the right questions to help get better?

Oh, one specific question i have is about weapon set swapping. My guildy mentioned it and went into a fair amount of detail to explain it, but so much info only sinks in so well... so could someone explain that to me?

Lord Natural · Oct 19, 2007, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aramaki [LUX]

Oh, one specific question i have is about weapon set swapping. My guildy mentioned it and went into a fair amount of detail to explain it, but so much info only sinks in so well... so could someone explain that to me?

It depends on what class you intend to play. Let's say caster, whether it's monk or mid-line doesn't matter. There are a few different reasons to weapon swap. In no particular order, I'd go with: Armor, energy, cast bonuses.

Armor:

As a caster you have a base AR of 60. If you equip a shield, your new armor base is 68. If you're playing against thumpers and use a +10 blunt shield, your new base is 78. Using your shield set between casts makes you a harder target to kill, and ultimately helps your team. If you notice warriors converging on you, it's a good bet you're about to be spiked. Switch to this set, start kiting, and you will be harder to kill than a squishy 60ar with a staff.

Energy:

Just because a +5/shield set will limit you to 35 energy, doesn't mean your energy pool ends there. There's nothing wrong with switching to a normal 47 set for casting and then back to your shield set between casts. Even if when you switch back to shield your energy reads as 0, it is still regenerating at its normal rate. This is also known as energy hiding. If your energy holds at 0 on a low set, it cannot be drained by e-denial.

If you anticipate energy denial is coming, you can use a -5 weapon/shield to create a 25 energy set. Basically the same function as a 35 set, but it requires more weapon swapping to make the most of.

A 2 regen 72 energy set is useful to have for monks. A monk is never truly out of energy until he's 0/72. If a monk gets to 0/47 and healing is still required, dipping into a high set will be necessary. Just remember not to remain on this low regen set between casts, or your energy regeneration will suffer as a result. By switching back and forth, you can utilize the emergency +72 while still having your 4 pip regen, except while actually casting. Also, communicate to your team that you're dipping into the emergency set, so they can retreat or adjust tactics accordingly.

You'll have less need for a high set on a mid-line caster, but it's still wise to pack one anyway, for emergencies. Playing a mesmer you can get away with dipping into it a little bit because you can get out of the energy hole with an e-management skill. In fact a high set while running auspicious can help your build a lot, though it can be a little risky.

Bonuses:

Casting bonuses. Got an enchant you need extended? Cast with a +20% set. Got a key skill you'd like a faster recharge for? Cast it with a 40% recharge set. Playing a slow caster and having trouble with interrupts? Switch to a reduced casting % set.

Aramaki [LUX] · Oct 19, 2007, 08:00 AM // 08:00

wow, i like the quick responses here. That makes sense. My guildy mentioned something pretty similar but seeing it in writing is easier so i can take it in.
I kinda realized this probably wasn't the best thread to ask this stuff in, but compared to how off-topic some threads get... i don't feel too bad.

Anyways thanks for that tid bit of info (tho, it reaffirms the notion that this is gonna be harder than i hoped it would be to get into... but a challenge is just that much more exciting).

Guess i just gotta start allowing for more time to practice... tho, sleep comes first.

elektra_lucia · Oct 19, 2007, 10:59 AM // 10:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omniclasm

Some people do actually play for fun, not everyone needs the false ego boost from being able the /rank the noobzors.

Most people bought this game to play for fun, surprisingly. We didn't buy it to harm our self (well maybe some emo used the discs in that way). We generally didn't buy it to use the discs as a coaster (but again, maybe that could be fun?). We bought it to play, for fun... Anyone that ever pulls this 'fun' argument, I simply wish they would die. It's so childish... This isn't a game where you can make loads of money playing it, so everyone plays for fun. Unless they're purely playing because their guild nagged them into it (but that's a rare case scenario).

Now about this false ego boost comment... Hmm, actually this thread was about people who whine about rank discrimination. You will find that these people do exactly that when they get their bambi, and you will also find they're desperate for fame.

If they weren't they'd be willing to play in groups of their own rank.

http://www.teamquitter.com/phpBB2/

They have a post somewhere about monking - you should read it. It applies to all casters pretty much.

lordelg · Oct 19, 2007, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Humn, i will tend to agree on this, and in some ways agree with the rank "discrimination" that goes on.

Im r4 atm. i got my r3 during a double fame 6v6 weekend running dual smite. Im happy to tell people that if they ask, i then gave up on HA to focus on GVG (my primary love of this game, although grinding leet masks in pve is kinda fun atm....) I got my r4 just through some casual HA with my alliance, and the pinicle came when i was with DOGS when they won halls, my first (and last!) time. HA suddenly had a new challenge. it started to become intersting when i wanted a change from gvg, i tried to pug it. all groups i could get into were, by my gvg standard poor. no one was changing targets, calling low energy, saying when they had certain hexes on them... you get the picture. For me, HA is now a "once every double fame weekend with the guild" event. i cant get in higher rank groups because of some of the morons around my rank area, and i have to agree with the higher rank people. i wouldnt accept a lower rank if 99% were as poor as my pugging experience goes.

i must now add that im not the worlds greatest PVPer, far from it. I know i dont weapon swap as much as i should, i know im sometimes a bit slow kiting but you seriosuly wonder how some of these people got to bambi when they say that alter maps are something new to them >.< (true story)

so in summary, i agree OP.

Circus Midget · Oct 19, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Aramaki, you could go to page two and read my post.

About the weapon swapping, as lord natural said, you will want to have multiple sets, many times only for one cast. (assuming you are a caster of course)
Like I said in my post on page 2, getting advice from experienced players, whether it be experienced in only HA or only GvG, can help you a lot. When I was r4 I learned a lot from a friend I AB'd with before nightfall came out, and he made me a much better monk than I previously was, simply because of a little knowledge of the game.

Ego · Oct 19, 2007, 07:11 PM // 19:11

Yes, but you still can't get around that they do discriminate people cause of all the thickheads out there that's the main reason they do disscriminate.

I am currently Rank 6 and I play with Rank 9/10+ groups all the time, cause I got friends and they know I am better then my title says, so saying that Rank Equals Skill is just pure trashtalk.