Curse

Holz · Oct 15, 2007, 11:08 PM // 23:08

In your post, you're often using the word 'good', and even 'skilled'. When I came from FPS games like Counter-Strike / Ravenshield to Guild Wars, I've often asked my self what 'good' meant. I think skill or talent doesn't count that much in MMORPG games as it does in FPS games (I'll get flames for this), cause experience is more important in MMORPG than in FPS. There are some builds, professions, situations that require speed and fast finger movement like LoD/Infuse, but most builds can be played by players with a certain amount of brain and the ability to read English. So what I'm most concerned about when unranked people want to join my party, is the knowledge of the maps, know what to do etc. Having a nice fame run and coming to Antechamber with people in your party that say "what is this map" can be frustrating

..

Sun Fired Blank · Oct 15, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

In a very short line, think of your conduct as your interview, then consider your guild as your alma mater, and your rank as your experience. That is my perception of the rank problem, except you don't as many real world considerations to help you.

elektra_lucia · Oct 16, 2007, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Prediction of opponent. Interrupting opponent. Positioning in relation to opponent. Experience helps in FPS too. You get to know your opponent, so you predict him better. Intercept him better. Position yourself better. Casting in wrong order is like using the wrong weapon in quake

. There is skill involved. More so than you may think. I always bitch about ping not being displayed whenever FPS games are brought up. A lot of counter strike is about experience too. Places to shoot walls, but anyway.

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I think skill or talent doesn't count that much in MMORPG games as it does in FPS games

I don't know. I think a different form of skills are required.

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think of your conduct as your interview

Yeah, and people have no reason to give an interview if you don't have something to offer =P.

Dallcingi · Oct 16, 2007, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Ah nice of you trying to help out low rank people, wish I had that to go through. I got my mid rank the pug way! I basiclly agree with most of what you said, as I too play mainly monk. I never swapped weapons at first until I researched it on QQ, never knew how to kite well, never knew how to pre-prot at all. And still, I am not "perfect" at doing all the above, heck sometimes I would play poorly. But , being mid rank (5), as opposed to low rank (3>), I do learn from mistakes and would practice and try to rid of them. Some mistakes are harder to fix than others but hey, they will be pretty minimal. Most low rank do the same thing over and over. Those that do become high rank and still do the same thing over and over. That is the other % of high rank players you stated that are not good and dont learn over time. It is because they just do the same thing ever since low rank.....

Good post really, and nice thoughts.

Ensign · Oct 16, 2007, 03:36 AM // 03:36

I'm pretty sure that if you don't think that experience is a huge part of winning even in the simplest of FPS, you're bad. Implicit knowledge of player movement is key.

Apok Omen · Oct 16, 2007, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Bad thing is, arrogance will occur. Players will act tough to show they have balls, but they usually end up not having the brain to play anything. Their rants are pathetic attempts to not see fault in themselves, and to convince the team they know what they're doing in fear of losing their spot.

I remember when I joined HA (sadly joined tombs a week before they changed it to HA, so can't say I've been around in the good ol' days) I wanted to learn how to monk in general, so as soon as I joined an unranked pug, I immediately asked for a bar to run. I was given the WoH/HP bar, and remember it to this day: Orison, Dwayna's, Word of Healing, Healparty, Channeling, Inspired Hex, Holy Veil, (optional)(liked taking Leech Signet for the pesky Migraine, E-surge, B-spikes, OoP, and enemy HP's)

God, I had fun healing with that bar. Even though it was basic Red Bar Go Up, it was effective. My practice for kiting, positioning, chain casting, and preesure handling came to be from mass IWAY groups. In my spare time of not healing, I would wand P-Season down 'cause of the annoyance. In short, I learned from my surroundings.

To low ranked players, here's a harsh yet effective tip: You do not know shit. Do not act like you do. Listen to your leader or you will fail.

Nadia Roark · Oct 16, 2007, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

To low ranked players, here's a harsh yet effective tip: You do not know shit. Do not act like you do. Listen to your leader or you will fail.

True, but they're words to remember later as well, even when you do know shit. I've been in r9+ teams that went to pot because they didn't listen to the caller. If I had to choose, I'd rather have a strong group leader than a strong second monk, let's put it that way.

The main difference between the "high" and "low" tiers of HA play is that new gamers are figuring out how to play in general, wheras the upper ranks are working on specific builds. A lot of people get to r9+ with one thing, switch, and then realize that they suck again. It happened to me when I played warrior for the first time. Good leaders are usually people who have played a lot of different classes and have familiarized themselves with the game to a degree most new players would probably find baffling at first. I am not one of these people, but I've found that even high ranked teams can fail if they don't pay attention to them.

red orc · Oct 16, 2007, 08:40 AM // 08:40

HA is a great concept with a bad implementation.
See all the people that want to play it and fail, not because they are bad players. HA does give you rewards just for playing (50 chance of gaining fame every fight). The fail is in the implementation of how you participate. It takes hours for new people to find a group and when they find it, they are crushed by r9 groups and everybody leave and it takes you again hours to find another group.

Had ANET provided a better mechanism for forming groups and an ingame mechanism of group skill matching, HA will be teeming with life and if would not take you lots of time just to form a group.

For example of such a mechanism for forming PUGs, a team leade would write the required team members and the machine would match automatic people to the team. ie. monk r3, ranger r3, ...
The mechanism will know the common builds and you could ask for thumper r6 or backbreaker r5 or trapper r3.
The players will be able to see all the open positions and just join any of them, or write their character and will be mached automaticly.
In addition, automatic PUGs will face other automatic PUG (when possible).
Also each team rank will be automaticly evaluated by the matchmaker and will face another team with similar ranking

Cass · Oct 16, 2007, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Not surprising you've managed to gather such an unpleasant group. Here's why:

1) Make a guild with the explicit intention to "help people to get higher rank". Firstly, this attracts only those who are only interested in Fame, not in playing the game. Secondly, it attracts people who want to be carried there by someone high-ranked. Both bad.

2) Stating that you will not use ventrilo. I don't intend to discuss the merits of ventrilo. However, people who will like this "no need vent" premise are those who prefer minimal investment. No need to actually talk with others (scary!), no need to install the program, etc.
These people will also be more likely to have a similar attitude to other aspects of the game: let's not talk about builds very long, lets not practice to get better; these are investments they do not like. However, they still want fame (see #1).

Hence, you get the people you described. I am not saying that you'd get this mass of great players if you had recruited to 'play the game, get better together' instead. But you'd have had a better chance.

elektra_lucia · Oct 16, 2007, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Nadia, you're correct on that. Although I think to anyone who plays one profession, be it warrior, sin, elementalist or monk. You should at least play the other professions once in a while even if it's not to make fame. I found this really helps me to memorize skills and what I need to pre-prot or what is most important to interrupt. Same for playing lame builds once in a while, helps you know counters. I find I have a good memory for things, but there's a lot of skills to remember and playing them once in a while just helps, but maybe it's a personal thing...

Cass:

Point taken on that, I went about it the wrong way. Although, I had exact same results where I joined groups with PVE friends and the low rank people just wouldn't listen.

Quote:

HA is a great concept with a bad implementation.
See all the people that want to play it and fail, not because they are bad players. HA does give you rewards just for playing (50 chance of gaining fame every fight). The fail is in the implementation of how you participate. It takes hours for new people to find a group and when they find it, they are crushed by r9 groups and everybody leave and it takes you again hours to find another group.

This has nothing to do with the game itself. It's to do with people not having a backbone.

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Had ANET provided a better mechanism for forming groups and an ingame mechanism of group skill matching, HA will be teeming with life and if would not take you lots of time just to form a group.

Interesting to note someone brought up FPS. Personally in FPS, I'd play match after match and lose for a solid month (with a new game). Then I would be amongst the best and no longer lose much. Anyone to play me, would also lose match after match. The good people would keep losing, and improve. No one whined at the game. It could be the EXACT same in this game, if people could take losing.

The disadvantage of your idea would also mean that you'd win one, lose one, win one, lose one. Would be no good for people wanting high rank... Again, with the rank system, the lower rank needs less fame to get it. So, it's ok that they lose more...

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I'm pretty sure that if you don't think that experience is a huge part of winning even in the simplest of FPS, you're bad. Implicit knowledge of player movement is key.

Yep, you take the game CoD: You learn experienced based grenade throws. You'll maybe use a wall hack to see where they land (empty server), and you'll remember this. You play UT and similar thing for weapons. CS: You learn where to pre fire, what walls to shoot at. There's a lot of experience based manoeuvre's which without them you will lose.

Bill gates once said "You learn the most from your most difficult customers." I agree with it entirely, but if it was a guild wars player. What would they say? Should give the customer things, not sell it!

red orc · Oct 16, 2007, 02:10 PM // 14:10

[

Quote:

This has nothing to do with the game itself. It's to do with people not having a backbone.

Take the same people and put them in RA, they would come run again and again even if they loose most of the fights (Gaining glad points is harder than fame for you need 5 consec wins for a point) and gain little or no glad points. The reason they dont stay in HA is the way groups are organized.
It is true that a small number of people have solid groups to run HA. Another small number of people are stuborn enough to overcome the hardship of finding a group, but the majority of the players come once or twice and never return.

Circus Midget · Oct 16, 2007, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I'm pretty sure that if you don't think that experience is a huge part of winning even in the simplest of FPS, you're bad. Implicit knowledge of player movement is key.

In any game that you play, experience will help, whether it's online or even a console game. You even get used to some of the simpler things that were hard to do when you were a nooby, they become second nature.

If we're talking about skill, I think in both FPS and MMORPG you could look at a player as skilled but for different reasons. In an FPS a more skilled player can beat you because he has quicker reaction times and a better aim. I'll use Halo as an example, if you both have sniper rifles and he can headshot you with no scope, consistantly, he will beat you. In Guild Wars I think it's important to be able to multi-task. (not sure if that is the perfect word to explain it) I've been told by other players I was a pretty good monk. (I play monk more than anything else) So I will use this as my example. If we are playing on unholy temples, while playing a protection monk I must watch my positioning both to stay spread out from my team, and hopefully to be body blocking their runners. While doing this I need to keep my team alive by knowing which skill to use on who and when to use it. Also, I have to watch and listen to hex and condition removal that teamates call for, and to know when my teamate is going to be running the relic and possibly overextending. Also the monks need to know if the opposing team is attempting to kill the ghostly hero, and be positioned close enough to heal or protect it.

Therefore I think we should conclude that both need experience and skill. But skill being needed in different ways(not enough time to discuss more examples because I'm at school right now.)

Moving on, I agree with different things that people have said in this thread. I think anyone who is high ranked here (hopefully meaning they haven't Ebay'd and have experienced being low rank as well) have played with r5 players that play well and r9 players that don't seem to understand basic game mechanics or say they can call but cannot lead the group or even hold ctrl + shift + space to call a spike in burial mounds. But I think the high ranked players mostly agree with the fact that low ranked or even unranked players will almost always think that they are worthy of your group's rank requirement.

We've all experienced the "I'm not r8, I'm only r5 but I'm a good monk!" then they PM you their LoD template with (insert funny skill here) and doesn't have factions.

Tips to low ranked players that want improve, not just get a wolf and call the bambis noob?

I think those few exceptions (the r4 that can keep up with our group) are someone that knows they are less experienced and wants to learn how to play the game. Also I believe that they need those characteristics to achieve the next step of becoming a low ranked player that plays to a level above his rank, which is getting the help of a higher ranked, more experienced player to tell him at least some of the things it takes to be a good player, and hopefully telling him what he's doing wrong. But they need those first characteristics to get any higher ranked player to help them. I know that I'm willing to help a player if they are polite and willing to listen, but I can't deal with the rank 4 uber pro that doesn't understand the concepts of protting, energy hiding (or any weapon swapping at all), and is better than the rest of my party because he has skipped to halls 4 times. After that they just need to keep playing and getting the experience of winning and losing with different builds and on differnt maps, and I don't want to hear "but the rest of the unranked players are still nooby." Well so are you until I play with you and realize that you are good, or someone I know plays with you. If you really are an excellent player, then you will affect the performance of the team overall by, if you're playing a monk, keeping them alive, and hopefully passing on the information you received from those high ranked players that were nice enough to help you out.

Overall...the difference between r9 and r3 is a very large gap, and the r9 is, 99.5% of the time going to be better, which is why we ask people to show their ranks in HA. Don't complain about it...if you're low ranked, do something build your skill, pass it on to other low ranked players and have fun with the game. If you're high ranked try helping to low ranked players that actually want to improve at the game and hopefully improve the Guild Wars community overall.

Not usually an epic poster, did I do well?

Good job to Vulkanyaz, and gl in the future.

luilui · Oct 16, 2007, 03:36 PM // 15:36

When i was r6 i felt i was better than when i was r3, when i was r9 i felt i was r6, and r12 better than r9 and so on. More expenience at different professions and so better understanding at the game. that's why i always think rank matters.

elektra_lucia · Oct 16, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

This is where people go wrong about FPS gaming... Now I think fatal1ty is by far the most over rated player (although media guy you read or see on TV is completely different to the guy that talks on IRC) BUT one of his statements he made I think is entirely true. FPS games are 10% aiming.

Good tactics and positioning are what's important, same with guild wars. Aiming is like a fast infuse, it's just the icing on the cake really. In no way will a person with 50% aim keep up with a person with 25% aim that plays much more smart.

Same for an infuser. In no way will an infuser that infuses super fast keep up with a monk that doesn't stand in AOE.

Although, with that in mind I do think you are right there are different skills involved. I was (without meaning to brag) one of europe's best FPS gamers but when I went to this game. Has taken me months and months to get ok. I still don't think I'm that good, just average really. So, if they were entirely similar - it'd be natural for me to be good at this, but I ain't. So something is wrong here =D.

Vulkanyaz

It is really nice to see someone compliment a high rank player too. So often you see threads whining about rank discrimination but the satisfied people don't generally speak up. Just like someone that buys something, you only hear of the people that are dissatisfied usually.

Quote:

Take the same people and put them in RA, they would come run again and again even if they loose most of the fights (Gaining glad points is harder than fame for you need 5 consec wins for a point) and gain little or no glad points. The reason they dont stay in HA is the way groups are organized.
It is true that a small number of people have solid groups to run HA. Another small number of people are stuborn enough to overcome the hardship of finding a group, but the majority of the players come once or twice and never return.

RA allows you to play bad skill bars and get away with it. No one really cares about losing because they put zero/little effort in. You don't have to organise a team.

If someone spends a while making a good build, spends a while getting players, and then loses. It can become frustrating. In RA, you can just play any build and often get glad points. You can say it's the way groups are organized, but there's no easy way to get around it.

Sun Fired Blank · Oct 17, 2007, 05:43 AM // 05:43

Quote:

RA allows you to play bad skill bars and get away with it. In RA, you can just play any build and often get glad points.

I'm not entirely certain that's the case anymore. My perception is that player quality decline has forced RA to a very simple game of rock - paper - scissors. I think it's because as a rule of thumb, the higher the quality of every player, the more they can help each other defeat a simple notion of RPS, and the more that a monk can influence gameplay.

RA isn't exactly the farming heaven for glad points that many people think it may be. Pre- and post-update, I had more luck "farming" glad points in TA than RA, and I'm finding it harder to win a glad point in post-update RA than I ever did in pre-update RA, which is a shame. I think TA is profoundly stagnant and boring, even if it is more profitable; I had actually started to prefer RA over TA. I was kind of hoping that a run of successive nerfs to deadly paradox, N/Rt soul reaping abuse, rampage as one, and other skills might help to revitalize balanced in the TA meta.

On a more relevant note, I do understand the HA situation. When I play TA for a more serious PUGs, I generally get scenes like this:

Me (SFB) has joined the party.
Me: "Can I get a ping?"
Me: Ping Average Bar.
Guy 1 (leader, r5+ hero / r3+ glad rank): Robust Bar
Guy 2 (r1-r4+ hero / r1-r3 glad): Average Bar
Guy 3 (no rank / faction rank): Junk Bar
Me: "Guy 2 and Guy 3, can you perhaps tweak your bars a bit?"
Guy 3: "OMG its fine"
Guy 3: "1"
Guy 1: "No, Guy 1, you definitely have to change up your bar."
Guy 2: "I like it, but what do you suggest?"
Me: "Guy 2, you might try ____."
Guy 3: "FFS can we go plz?!"
Guy 1: "Be quiet. SFB, on that note, can you try running ___?"
Guy 2: "Hm. Okay, I think I might try that."
Me: "Sure, that looks okay, but I think I'd rather have X over Y, what do you think?"
Guy 3: "Im fine can we go plz??!"
Guy 1: "Shut up! That's something you can try, SFB, but I'd rather you just use X."
Guy 2: "I'm set."
Me: "Okay, I'll try your suggestion. Can we all give one last ping before we go?"
Guy 1: "OMG just go OMG!"
Guy 2: Robust Bar.
Guy 3: Improved Bar.
Me: Improved Bar.
Guy 1: "Guy 3, you need to ping."
Guy 3: "Shut up!"
*Leader has kicked Guy 3 from party.*

That's what you get with three more flexible and pleasantly mannered people who put up with a whiny, stubborn jerkoff to the very end. The more people you add, the more that scene would suck. I'd imagine that a lot of people in HA would just prefer to skip over that altogether, and because rank is a fairly decent predictor of a person that doesn't suck, you get excluded if you don't have rank. Oh. And on the off-chance that a group does put up with a whiny, stubborn jerkoff, they really do tend to suck at playing as much as they're intolerable, whiny and stubborn.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Oct 17, 2007, 10:23 AM // 10:23

90% of the people that play tombs seem to not improve at all no matter how uch they play, they might be 'high rank' and as such 'experienced' the majority of the players in tombs seem to just grind it out by farming underworld with a foty (flavor of the year since balance updates seem to come out about at that rate) gimmick, e.g. thumpers and n/rt.

Experience matters, but everyone can be high rank by simply grinding fame.

skarkees · Oct 17, 2007, 12:53 PM // 12:53

lol comparing bill gates witg GW

Still you're totaly right lol.

Holz · Oct 17, 2007, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I'm pretty sure that if you don't think that experience is a huge part of winning even in the simplest of FPS, you're bad. Implicit knowledge of player movement is key.

I never said I did.... I said experience is more important in Guild Wars than in FPS just like skill/talent is more important in FPS than in Guild Wars (imo). If I let a friend of mine play CS:S and he scores headshots right away, I know he has some talent even though he doesn't know where to go on e.g. de_dust2, knowledge like can be learned by most of the playerbase.

Ekelon · Oct 17, 2007, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

90% of the people that play tombs seem to not improve at all no matter how uch they play, they might be 'high rank' and as such 'experienced' the majority of the players in tombs seem to just grind it out by farming underworld with a foty (flavor of the year since balance updates seem to come out about at that rate) gimmick, e.g. thumpers and n/rt.

Experience matters, but everyone can be high rank by simply grinding fame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I'm pretty sure that if you don't think that experience is a huge part of winning even in the simplest of FPS, you're bad. Implicit knowledge of player movement is key.

I would say, in a good response to both of these. A major problem with lower ranked players, is not that they aren't good, but they sometimes either do not know how to improve or are just too plainly stubborn. A higher ranked player might make a mistake as often as the lower ranked player, but each time the higher ranked player makes a mistake, he will make a mental note for sure to try to keep it from happening again. Most lower ranked complainers never improve. The lower ranked players who try to get better though, will eventually learn this important fact and will quickly rise in rank because his or her skill will improve.

Rushin Roulette · Oct 17, 2007, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

Guy 1: "Guy 3, you need to ping."
Guy 3: "Shut up!"
*Leader has kicked Guy 3 from party.*

Thats the main reason why I dont play any PvP at all except a little AB every now and then (too many guy 3's in the game/world). If I knew that I could reliably get help from good players I might venture into propper PvP instead of running an anti Narutard build and letting 12345 Assassins or Dervs who dont look at their screen suicide against my necro every time I feel like I need a laugh.

Rank elitism is all nice and good, but at least try to help the noobs... maybe you might get someone who is new and genuinely wants to learn the ropes invite new players to your group and judge them by their attitude instead of their rank.

And all these comments comparing FPS games to GW... I cant agree more about Knowledge>Skill>Aim. I play HL2DM:CTF aswell you will find a well organized averagely skilled team will 90% beat any elite skilled team which doesnt work on teamwork/strategies (talking as the main strategist for my clan).