Curse

sarra june · Apr 29, 2009, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nadia Roark

I'd rather risk overlapping prot once in a while than run with two sub-par skills for fear of it.

I get where you're coming from now but that's probably why I don't agree with dropping the party heals. I'm a 2-monk backline proponent to begin with but if you DO bring a mo/p it just makes me mad to have duplicates of the prot monk skills. The whole idea of 8v8 is to make bars that synergize for maximum performance and the thought of splitting atts on a support char for duplicates of another characters' skills annoys me. Yes, it's true that a prot monk cannot preprot every spike or follow both of the other team's frontline 24/7 without fail, but still spirit bond/guardian/soa are the prot monk's responsibility in my humble opinion. If both a mo/p with prots and the prot monk have any level of competency they will be overlapping prots 80% of the time. That is such a total waste...

And really, yes the divine heals aren't amazing. But people run FC LoD mesmers, life, pwk, incoming/fallback chains, or whatever they can manage fitting in their build to take care of the party heals need, and avoid taking an HB monk. I don't think people run those two heals because they are that amazing... they run them because that's what works and that's what fits into the rest of their build. Most people bring a pnh monk for the utility of having party heals, paragon utility, and a boost of hex removal on one character. Just because you consider these 'sub-par' doesn't mean that more prots = win... I'm pretty sure everyone and their mom agrees that those three hard prots are better than party heals. The point is you don't need two sets of them. And like somebody else said, you really can't always avoid aoe or full-party damage... This isn't gvg.... tombs is aoe central most of the time and there's only so much kiting can do!

However, that said! As it seems that you pug a lot I can see wanting to bring prots on the mo-p to counter bad redbar prot monks in th at #7 slot... sounds like you just need to get back to balanced 2-monk backlines and not third monk to avoid mo/p frustration! ^_^ <3

Sun Fired Blank · Apr 29, 2009, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Or you could just run a ritualist.

sarra june · Apr 29, 2009, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

Or you could just run a ritualist.

Ding ding ding!! ^_^

superraptors · Apr 30, 2009, 12:44 AM // 00:44

mo/p bar is trash

The only reason i would run a mo/p is for strength so u can do big damage, still works alright with pnh cause youur strength hardly gets stripped cause half the time its covered.(dropping the divine healings),

The mo/p bar gives less options if anything, because your sacrificing stronger party heals assuming your doing rit and constant weapon spells which eles cannot provide as they are nuking shit 3/4 time. Which is why i would prefer makehaste on eles and song on a frontline
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Nadia Roark · Apr 30, 2009, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Fair enough: I haven't been back long enough to really think too hard about how I would make a new build, and I do get the feeling when I play PnH that there may be better alternatives. I think it's okay--usable enough under the circumstances and it's something I can play (usually) while watching something on my other monitor or listening to some inspirational bands like Lamb of God or Arch Enemy *throws up the horns*

At any rate, I will probably keep playing PnH until people stop asking for it, but I can see where the build's critics are coming from. The Rit is an option I like a lot but I'm a career monk so that means I would have to go back to full time active prot which I'm not sure I'm ready for just yet. Part of the reason I'm using (and proselytizing) the prot bar over the divine healer bar is because I regard it as a better segue into more advanced monk builds.

EDIT: Oh, and yeah: I ran the Strength of Honor bar today and it did indeed rock some faces off. I look forward to running it again, but today I kept coming up on Courtyard and profane stripped it about a dozen freaking times.

Phe Belladona · Apr 30, 2009, 05:01 AM // 05:01

tbh my fav combo for this is: PnH, SoA, Stab Aura, 2x Div Heal, Song, Make Haste, Fall Back. 14 Div Fav (or less if want more command), 11 Prot for break point, 9/10 Command for shield req and shouts.

this gives good party heal support and lets you have this 3rd monk babysit the ghost with SoA and capping with Aura and Song, and gives access to Aura for prot monk and SoA is the best general prot for HA and wont likely overlap with the real prots SoA.

Edwards · Apr 30, 2009, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Why do people PUG PnH monks often?

Because it's an incredibly easy, boring bar to play. This means that nobody usually wants to play it unless they're desperate for a spot, and the average PUG, who is a drooling idiot, can't mess it up too badly.

So, given that 75%+ of people that you PUG to fill a role are going to suck, why would you put more skills on that bar that require skill and proactive thinking to use? Why not make it the simplest bar you can, so that it's damn hard to mess up?

Also,

Quote:

It wasn't just me, it was more the whole party just being permanently low on HP...
Like just toss me a reversal and a patient spirit and I'll be in the "fine" zone, but it seemed like we had some inattentives. x2 palm sins on our backline might also be to blame.

In gvg like usually unless the party's taking an extremely large amount of pressure the monks will be successful in keeping party bars mostly full.

Maybe it's just bad low ranked monks.

If the whole party is permanently on low HP, it's usually not the healer's fault. More likely, you're team is standing in AoE, or you have a bad prot monk, or both. Monks aren't an infinite source of healing. Even if energy is fine, they still have recharges to deal with, and other considerations (ie. is it safe/necessary to heal this person?)

2x Palm Sins on your backline would also contribute. I must say that if my backline partner and I are being trained by the other team's frontline, my priority is to prot us/heal us and kite, depending on my position. Is it worth waiting to put a prot on a monk in order to make your frontline feel more secure? Is it worth spending a Patient on a frontliner when other people on your team need the health buffer much more?

What people playing positions other than monk often don't realize is that they can be at 50% health and in no danger at all. Being at half health shouldn't affect the way that you frontline unless you're not very confident about your ability to use a cancel stance. If the other team's frontline is staying on your monks, then you should be safe. Cancel stance/kite if you see somebody looking like they're going to spike you, and trust your monks to be up on the prots/heals when they're actually necessary.

GvG teams generally don't have the same amount/type of pressure as HA teams do. The monk bars for the two formats are significantly different, so comparing them is kind of silly.

Nadia Roark · Apr 30, 2009, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwards

What people playing positions other than monk often don't realize is that they can be at 50% health and in no danger at all. Being at half health shouldn't affect the way that you frontline unless you're not very confident about your ability to use a cancel stance. If the other team's frontline is staying on your monks, then you should be safe. Cancel stance/kite if you see somebody looking like they're going to spike you, and trust your monks to be up on the prots/heals when they're actually necessary.

Anyone with any interest in frontlining in any serious sort of way should commit this passage to memory.

EDIT:

@Phe
That's an interesting bar I hadn't thought of. I should give it a shot sometime. I'm kind of stubborn in that I always prefer to leave sb on my bar if I'm specc'd into prot... but that looks like it works too.

Divinus Stella · Apr 30, 2009, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Best prot monk in the game.........

Lux Aeterna · Apr 30, 2009, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwards

What people playing positions other than monk often don't realize is that they can be at 50% health and in no danger at all. Being at half health shouldn't affect the way that you frontline unless you're not very confident about your ability to use a cancel stance. If the other team's frontline is staying on your monks, then you should be safe. Cancel stance/kite if you see somebody looking like they're going to spike you, and trust your monks to be up on the prots/heals when they're actually necessary.

I'm a very aggressive frontliner, generally if I'm being cautious I have a very good reason. Typically I cancel/reactivate frenzy every 4 seconds or less, this among other reasons is why I run rush instead of dash on my WE.

I think in this case the monks were just being lazy, the main monk I was HAing with plays that PnH bar and loves it because it means he doesn't really have to do anything. Additionally, having health below half for more than a few seconds shows me that our monks are under too much pressure and if I suddenly lose a few hundred HP they won't be able to keep up.

Another monk was telling me absolutely never ever use frenzy because it means she has to cast all her prots on me (???).

sarra june · Apr 30, 2009, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

Another monk was telling me absolutely never ever use frenzy because it means she has to cast all her prots on me (???).

She was either kidding or terribad.
Spoken by a prot monk that loves frenzy and squeaky clean wammotars.
<3

Sun Fired Blank · Apr 30, 2009, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Obvious answer: wear Sentinel's.

Nadia Roark · Apr 30, 2009, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Best prot monk in the game.........

I'm never going to let Mirada live that one down... even if he never logs in again lol

dr love · Apr 30, 2009, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phe Belladona

tbh my fav combo for this is: PnH, SoA, Stab Aura, 2x Div Heal, Song, Make Haste, Fall Back. 14 Div Fav (or less if want more command), 11 Prot for break point, 9/10 Command for shield req and shouts.

this gives good party heal support and lets you have this 3rd monk babysit the ghost with SoA and capping with Aura and Song, and gives access to Aura for prot monk and SoA is the best general prot for HA and wont likely overlap with the real prots SoA.

i like this bar

though i'd do more prot, less DF. i'd love to have aura on me as a prot monk! also SoA is amazing and if everyone had that on their skill bar, that would be fine with me.

party heals definitely come in handy on HoH cap pts, where your whole party is sitting in AoE. those DF heals can heal for ~400hp for 5 energy. pretty good deal there.

someone asked about LS. i like it because it removes 2 conditions (rarely will you have more stacked on one char in HA, except when you face PEST's contagionway), and it replaces RoF. you can stop most palm sins by LS'ing their cripple. you can remove deep wounds immediately. you can push up bars. you can spam it. its great against IWAY (RC will get chopped more). it can stop a bad spike, which their are many. it's perfect for when guardian and SoA are on recharge. you can preprot with it. it's only 5e and with channeling its like 2e

and if wars/sins bring frenzy, they just have to cancel stance. the only time they get a free SB is against zaishen.

Lux Aeterna · Apr 30, 2009, 03:42 PM // 15:42

This particular prot monk was mostly mad that we'd just gotten owned by IWAY, and got kicked for being annoying.

About sentinels, does one need it on chest only or both chest and legs ? Currently I have it on both but I've heard AoE only affects chest.

Sun Fired Blank · Apr 30, 2009, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Why not everywhere save your hands?

Nadia Roark · Apr 30, 2009, 04:18 PM // 16:18

What do you mean?

Sun Fired Blank · Apr 30, 2009, 04:52 PM // 16:52

I mean use Sentinel's on every part of your warrior except your hands (for Stonefist). My default shield is +10 vs. fire shield. AoE damage is a joke if you run that setup, even in Frenzy. I keep 20% blind reduction in my storage, and run a clarity rune on my legs.

Nadia Roark · Apr 30, 2009, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

I mean use Sentinel's on every part of your warrior except your hands (for Stonefist). My default shield is +10 vs. fire shield. AoE damage is a joke if you run that setup, even in Frenzy. I keep 20% blind reduction in my storage, and run a clarity rune on my legs.

Yeah, that's a good call. I find myself wondering why more warriors don't run it sometimes, since elemental damage and life stealing are really about the only things (aside from conditions, hexes of course) that I worry about whilst protting them.

EDIT: and before someone points out the obvious, just because I can't prot life stealing doesn't mean I won't worry about it

HawkofStorms · Apr 30, 2009, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edwards

What people playing positions other than monk often don't realize is that they can be at 50% health and in no danger at all. Being at half health shouldn't affect the way that you frontline unless you're not very confident about your ability to use a cancel stance. If the other team's frontline is staying on your monks, then you should be safe. Cancel stance/kite if you see somebody looking like they're going to spike you, and trust your monks to be up on the prots/heals when they're actually necessary.

Agreed. A Monks job is to keep you from being killed, not to keep you at 100% health all the time. If they are keeping people alive, they are doing a good job. Overhealing past max is a waste of energy.