Curse

Kaon · May 12, 2009, 03:43 PM // 15:43

This thread serves the purpose of what 3 years of game balance and 3 releases have done to GvG. I will try to be as objective as possible although I'm obviously biased. In my personal opinion gamebalance has been done with a completely wrong philosophy.

I will compare the "standard balanced" of 3 years ago, to the "standard balanced" of today. Then we will analyze how much skillbars have changed and whether this has had a positive effect on the game. Note that there are many build variations, especially during early days. I cannot cover all of these builds, but I think I can make the point clear enough.

Standard balanced build 3 years ago:
W/E
W/E
R/Me
Me/Mo
E/Mo
Mo/Me
Mo/Me
E/mo runner

There have been smiters, all kinds of warriors, all kinds of runners. Hex builds, dualsurge builds, dual ranger builds, triple ele builds etc etc. I cannot cover all of this so I will use this as a template

Standard balanced nowadays:
W/Rt
W/A
R/Mo
Me/Rt
E/Mo
Mo/W
Mo/W
E/rt

There are fast cast water eles, monk runners, rit runners, e/me split builds, dual ranger builds, lingering curse necros, etc etc. Same story as above.

Warriors.
Nowadays people run mostly WE axe warriors: [rush][dismember][power attack][protectors strike][bulls strike][frenzy][warriors endurance][resurrection signet] + [dash][deathpact signet]

Let's compare this to what warriors have run for many years and is probably the most famous build in the history of guild wars: The shock axe. [rush][eviscerate][bulls strike][executioners strike][shock][frenzy][disrupting chop][resurrection signet]. Especially early on Dchop was mostly replaced by healing signet, or even shields up.

First off it's clear that the current build deals much more damage than the w/e but doesn't have shock. It's quicker (if dash) or has a hardres (if dp). It's skills can be spammed quite mindlessly for massive damage. The recharges are so low that smart use of skills isn't really encouraged but more: use as many skills in an as short as possibly timeframe for maximum damage. Without lying we can say that the w/a is a superpowered mindless spam character with speed or hardres.

The w/e on the other hand takes a while to build up his skills, then has a very powerful spike combined with powerful disruption. This warrior has much more tactical possibilities and the difference between a good and bad player on this character is easily noticable. Also it's very fun to play.

Conclusion
Current day's warriors deal more damage, are easier to play, but lack in depth and tactical ability. The role is less interesting and has become shallow.

Opinion
Power attack, protectors strike, dash, Warriors endurance. These skills have to go. They're ridiculous and serve no purpose but to make the game worse.

Note: If we dig deeper in history we will find the gale warrior. Gale was even more interesting than shock and gave the role endless possibilities. In my opinion this is the best (in terms of playvalue) warrior build ever to be in existance in guild wars.

Ranger
Currently there are many ranger elites, but we will take the melshot. I think all the other elites are shitty and shallow. Melshot is tactically richest.
[melandrus shot][distracting shot][savage shot][hunters shot][mending touch][apply poison][natural stride][resurrection signet]

This versus the good old ranger:
[crippling shot][distracting shot][savage shot][distortion][blackout][apply poison][troll unguent][storm chaser]

Some observations are similar as in the warriorcase. Current rangers deal much more damage but do not have the utility power. They can spread poison much faster, can even do bleeding and have a much more powerful spike due to higher marksmanship and 1s activation skills. Natural stride compresses the bar so they can take a res sig, and mending touch is one of the best split skills in the game. If two of these rangers face each other in a duel, it is unlikely any of them will die.

Old ranger had a huge amount of tactical options. They could snare the opponent frontline, the opponent backline, use blackout both offensively and defensively. They could push flags with distortion. Also if two of these rangers would face off in a duel most of the times only 1 would survive. Today this rate would be higher cause people have learned how to dshot cripshot (though distortion can prevent this, it costs a LOT of energy). One notice is that back in the day people didn't run RC/pnh (unless in tomz) so cripshot was much more powerful.

Conclusion
Rangers have shallowed out. Their tactical options are still larger than any other class but still not even a shadow of what they used to be. I consider blackout one of the coolest and best designed skills in the game and seeing it not being used is a pain in my heart. Current rangers are damage with interrupts and snares. Old rangers were snares, disruption, interrupts, and some degen.

Opinion
Because people run RC backlines now cripshot lost most of it's value. Outside this; natural stride, mending touch, and 1 second activation skills are ridiculous. Izzy has had the desire to make multiple ranger elites playable and this has only served to make the class more powerful but less interesting. The nerfs on blackout and distortion was a stab in my heart. Stormchaser now is way too fast the only reason it lacks use is because there are better skills.

Mesmer People ran all kinds of mesmers back then, often with a lot of variation in skills. I'm taking some esurger as basis. [energy surge][energy burn][signet of weariness][mind wrack][blackout][diversion][drain enchantment][power drain] Other often used skills but not in this bar are: Shatter enchantment, mantra of inscriptions, shame, hard res, and distortion

Currently dom mesmers are quite rare, but this is what is used:
[power block][power leak][power drain][diversion][shatter enchantment][drain enchantment][shame][flesh of my flesh]

Old mesmers were much less execution (read: interrupt) based and relied on using their skills as much as possible on the right targets. Their damage was much bigger than now and they could really wreck a monk. Important skill is blackout as it could be used for so many purposes and easily swing games when used right.

Current mesmers are much harder to play. Most of it's power comes with interrupts, and this brings it's own set of problems; ping, fastcast sets, anti-interrupt stuff, etc. But in general this is actually a good class. Back in the day you could also interrupt, it just wasn't done because of the aforementioned issues, and because it took a long time before good interface was implemented.

Conclusion
Mesmers require much more skill nowadays to play, and allow better players to distinguish themselves more. Old mesmers had more possibilities with their edenial (you could edeny a ranger!), damage, and blackout. But current mesmers can actually get more done. Current mesmers are definately not "worse" for the game than old mesmers. But loss of blackout and the interrupt issues are a thorn in the eye of this class.

Opinion
BUFF BLACKOUT! Also I really don't like interrupt based gameplay. A few interrupts are fine, but when an entire bar depends on interrupts, and when they're so incredibly powerful I think something is wrong. Super interrupts like powerleak and powerblock are too random and unreliable in my opinion. They destroy anything that uses +1second cast in a nonlag environment, but against fastcasters or physicals they're useless. I do think these have to be reworked. All in all I preferred the old mesmer but that's just me.

Elementalist/Midliners
Midliners used very different bars back then, but i'll use something typical for that time:
[Lightning orb][lightning strike][blinding flash][heal party][aegis][draw conditions][ether prodigy][resurrection signet] Gale was also a very often used skill instead of aegis or strike. Many people also carried shatterstorm, deep freeze, or ice spikes, ward against melee, or ward against foes instead of any of the monk skills.

Currently people use a bsurger or fc water ele, i've chosen the bsurger because it has been consistantly used over the past time;
[blinding surge][shell shock][glyph of lesser energy][gale][Weapon of Warding][air attunement][Protective was Kaolai][Resurrection Signet] Midliners vary so much. Some people take lightning bolt, or enfeeble, or hex removal

The current elementalist is better than the old ele in every single aspect. Bsurge can be spammed on recharge without too much skill or too many energy issues. Weapon of warding and PwK are ridiculous and don't risk being interrupted much. Old eles had to use blinding flash carefully and right in front of a spike, then inbetween spikes use snares/aegis/ward/heal party. If they did not do this correctly then the team would die. Current eles also have to bsurge right in front of a spike. Only bsurge is so incredibly powerful that it can be spammed on recharge and you'll still be considered as a good elementalist. Also lightning orb is a 15 energy two second line of sight cast, much harder to pull of than press T and shellshock, but also much more fun.

Conclusion
Current elementalists are much more powerful and much easier to play. They're also much less fun. Old elementalists required attention non stop if you didn't want to blow up because of interrupts, spikes, or ether prodigy.

Opinion
Bsurge is way too powerful and has to go. I'd LOVE to see ether prodigy back but it's not going to happen. One change though i'd love to see happen is revert bsurge back to aoe on enchantment. I do not understand why this clausule was removed. It rewarded skillfull play and made the class much more fun to play and play against. Also, lightning orb is so much more fun than shellshock it isnt even funny.

note: Yes i did blatantly ignore water eles and fast cast water eles and wards. But on this more or less the same can be said. Freezing gust is a stupidly powerful skill and mirror of ice does extreme damage. Snaring with only shard storm, ice spikes, and deep freeze was much more fun, rewarding, and skillfull. Though the gap isn't that big.

Monks
Back in the day, people ran boonprots, or sometimes WoH monks. Now everyone runs a WoH + PnH. So we're going to compare entire backlines. I will put mend ailment instead of mend condition, because mend condition was just too weak. So i'm taking an "early" version boonprot. Note it back then had a 2second recharge.
[mend ailment][inspired hex][reversal of fortune][protective spirit][guardian][divine boon][contemplation of purity][mantra of recall] x2 Most teams took 1 MoR and 1 Edrain. Also often teams ran only 1 guardian or prot spirit to get in signet of devotion. Earlier people ran oob which was pretty funny; monks saccing themselves

.

Currently: [infuse health][cure hex][patient spirit][protective spirit][word of healing][guardian][balanced stance][disciplined stance]
[peace and harmony][aura of stability][reversal of fortune][spirit bond][guardian][mend condition][balanced stance][disciplined stance]

It is clear that the new monks are almost endlessly more powerful. The healer spends 5 energy on a 300 health heal, a boonprot would have to spend well over 14 energy, not even counting in his less pip of regen. The prot can instacure hexes and conditions, make you invincible from them, make you invincible from knockdowns, make you invincible from big damage (spiritbond), and make you severely resilient against physical damage because the new guardian is effectively twice as good as the old one. Do the math and you'll realise it blocks twice as much. Boonprots don't have to infuse to save a spike (yet effectively they'll spend the same amount of energy) and can cop out shame. Outside that current monks heal (much) better, prot (much) better, and are harder to shutdown. A boonprot on 0 energy is completely screwed. A word monk only need 5 energy to get someone near maximum health. I have not even talked about the stances yet.

Conclusion
Current monks are much much much more powerful than boonprots. They're not necessarily easier to play, but they are much more forgiving. When a boonprot does not manage his energy well the team dies. A word monk can get away with that much easier. Stances make positioning a joke especially combined with the fact that you can prot someone to invincibility. A current monk is almost just as fun and hard to play as it was 3 years ago, only the effect on the game overall is very negative.

Opinion
The monk is the most broken class in the game. Over the past 2 years they have been consistently buffed. Practically every single skill on their bars is overpowered. The problem is balance (and consensus in general) always shits their pants when it comes to nerfing defense and acts very careful, while nerfing offense or buffing defensive is something done regularly without second thoughts.

Runners
Nowadays we have the ritrunner, the monk runner, and more recently the e/rt ether prism runner. Back in the day we'd see often cripshot runner, but more later on a lot of ether prodigy runners with water, air or both. Let's compare e/rt versus e/mo. Please see http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showt...php?t=10010209 for more details.
[ether prodigy][blinding flash][lightning orb][windborne speed][healing breeze][heal party][aegis] or [ether prodigy][ice prison][ice spikes][deep freeze][armor of mist][healing breeze][heal party][aegis]
currently: [ether prism][weapon of warding][resilient weapon][protective was kaolai][wielder's boon][storm djinns haste][energy blast][recuperation] Sometimes people take ice prison

Current runner is quicker. Carries much much more and unremovable defense, much more partyhealing, has a more reliable source of energymanagement, and can become invincible. Old elementalists had shitty heals and had to rely on snares or conditions to stay alive. Their speedbuffs were slow to recast (a vulnerable moment!) and they had to use aegis and heal party whilst running the flag. These flaggers were very weak and had to use their cunning to keep the base alive. In an 8v8 fight they would act as midliners (see above) and not as some mindless monk. Nowadays it has become much easier for a flagger to survive against overwhelming numbers. Just stand back and prot yourself. And old flagger would have to position himself correctly, breeze himself, and snare and blind properly. Not to mention his weakness allowed other roles to excel at tactical brilliance. Then there is windborne speed which is much more than a stupid speedbuff: It can be used on allies and therefore allows much tactical play.

Conclusion
Flaggers have become much more powerful. They are much tougher to kill, have arguably lost damage, and are much easier to play. Their tactical possibilities have been reduced. Overal current flaggers have a more negative influence of the game because their power disencourages strong split actions and tactical play. Because of this they are more boring to play, and because less action happens it even gets more boring. Monk runner is the most boring class in guild wars, outside perhaps paragon.

Opinion
A stupid dumbed down class. They used to be extremely vulnerable, now almost every single vulnerability has been removed. The loss of windborne speed is a stab in my heart. I've always considered windborne speed as a greatly designed skill because of it's possibilities. Godmode with a button is retarded.

Overall conclusion
All roles (except arguably mesmer) have become much much more powerful over the course of time. Often with negative impact. Most roles have shallowed down and do not have nearly the possibilities they had 3 years ago. Although some roles still require a lot of skill to play, their impact on the game is mostly negative. Tactical possibilities are virtually naught. Most roles have become much more boring to play.

Opinion
Outside a few mechanical improvements the game has gotten severely worse, especially the last year. If after 3 years of work all you do is scare customers away you deserve to be fired: Fire izzy. He is a nice guy with good intentions, only he's retarded. If something is overpowered try nerfing that what's overpowered, not buffing a counter. Try designing skills that reward skillfull and tactical play. So far all those skills (gale, blackout, windborne, cripshot, blinding flash), got nerfed.

IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME OR WANT TO FIGHT ONE OF MY CONCLUSIONS, PROVIDE ARGUMENTS OR DO NOT POST

Konkadonk · May 12, 2009, 04:16 PM // 16:16

I have never played GvG so I didn't know any of this. It's a very informative piece and shows just how the devs have cornered people into playing certain roles on their class. After all less diversity means less work for the devs right?

Kaon · May 12, 2009, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konkadonk

I have never played GvG so I didn't know any of this. It's a very informative piece and shows just how the devs have cornered people into playing certain roles on their class. After all less diversity means less work for the devs right?

No this is wrong. There were certain periods in the game where it was quite well balanced. Only then Izzy nerfed and buffed things that were completely uncalled for and RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed up the game. If only they had stopped balancing at that moment...

Yichi · May 12, 2009, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Konkadonk

I have never played GvG so I didn't know any of this. It's a very informative piece and shows just how the devs have cornered people into playing certain roles on their class. After all less diversity means less work for the devs right?

It more clearly shows the power creap that the new chapters of the game have brought with them. Thus leading to the hyper defense spikes, and the currently broken skillset and boring metagame we currently endure.

only correction to the original post I would make it we have been recieving balance updates for 4 years

NeHoMaR · May 12, 2009, 04:53 PM // 16:53

People don't get the point of balancing. Balancing is NOT for actually balance the game, the real purpose is to keep people playing the game and trying different builds. Indeed, they are unbalancing the game on purpose with every skill update (not a sarcasm)

Sun Fired Blank · May 12, 2009, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Your extent of modern splitting is to send 1x R/Mo and 2 x E/Me on split, and the extent of reactive splitting are to push your damage into base, send your defense back, and try to avoid the inevitable collapse.

That's mostly because everything is so ridiculously overpowered that you can get away with that. You'd probably have to revert at least several steps back; nerfs to Warrior's Endurance, Ether Prism, FC Water Mesmers, B-Surge, Power Block, etc. before you'd ever see healthy play return.

The Mind Blast split is pretty lame too, and really not good for the game as a whole. A superpowered split template for a superpowered stand meta doesn't strike me as ideal.

SilentSyn · May 12, 2009, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeHoMaR

People don't get the point of balancing. Balancing is NOT for actually balance the game, the real purpose is to keep people playing the game and trying different builds. Indeed, they are unbalancing the game on purpose with every skill update (not a sarcasm)

yes, but isnt the point of a game to be fun? and if that philosophy of balancing is making the game less fun by reducing the amount of tactical options for the sake of making a few fans of a class happy by granting them FotM status, then it should be changed.

i remember how fun the game used to be and I completely agree with Kaon's nicely put assessment. Quit screwing around with the game and return it back to what worked and what was actually fun to play.

xDementia · May 12, 2009, 05:46 PM // 17:46

@Kaon

Nice post, pretty much covers everything. Only thing that is kind of annoying is how there is almost no emphasis on midline damage and offensive support as a whole. At the same time, you explain how powerful monks have become but not as a need and a natural consequence of the former.

With the current state of balance, rangers, water and fire skills deal way too much damage compared to what they did before. Current necro bars cause more pressure as well even though hexes have been imba as well in older metas.

Lux Aeterna · May 12, 2009, 05:55 PM // 17:55

So what I get from this is:

1) The meta is exactly the same but different after 4 years + powercreep.

2) You want gale warriors and boon prot back.

3) QQQQQQQQQQQQQQ

Stop calling skills broken

Somebody tell me this game isn't balanced.

Somebody tell me this game isn't balanced.

Neo-LD · May 12, 2009, 06:38 PM // 18:38

This is like a watered down version of that thread Gus made like a year ago. Still, that means it has good points.

Except about Boon Prots. They were degenerate and far too noob-friendly. Unfortunately modern monks are also degenerate (block stances, aegis = ftl). Still, at least now people have incentive to prot properly.

kedde · May 12, 2009, 06:57 PM // 18:57

Only, that incentive comes from ludicruos and badly designed skills and the fact that active defense is pretty much cleared from the game except for the prot monk.

That's not even mentioning how you'd defend tactically back then compared to now.

A very simple comparison that doesn't truly justify it would be to have a look at AoS.
You notice a kd coming up? Throw it on someone and you just saved a shitton of damage.

Blinding, snaring an other things wouldn't have worked since the utterly ridiculous defensive measures serve not only to (halfways) nullify another stupid skill (LC), but also completely destroy any kind of active defense measures forcing more passive crap into the game.

Back in the days, you'd have your midline either interrupt the kd, blind, blackout or gale their warriors on the spike.
Or even positioning yourself better in the first place, or as a countertactic, split off something threatening enough to force a collapse from their side.

This doesn't happen anymore.

Divine Ashes · May 12, 2009, 07:18 PM // 19:18

If anything, this thread took me back to when I actually enjoyed GvG. I know you were focusing on the particular builds, but attention also should be made to VoD, match time limits, the reduction of the number of bodyguards and the introduction of knights, etc. They've played a role also in the fate of GvG.

I also agree with the guy who said that boon prots were very noob friendly. Having a couple good boon prots was pretty much God Mode (One Star and Soul Wedding, for example). When Blessed Light monks came about and replaced boon prots, the learning curve increased, and made the monk class harder to play and more inaccessible to less experienced players.

Personally, I've always enjoyed GvG, up until recently when variation in opposing builds and skills became almost 0. I still say that playing LoD/infuse during the times of the "original" eurospike (shadow prison, spiritual pain, etc) was the most fun I've had playing this game. I think the main point of balance is so that we see more variations in builds, and not the same spike or the same balance or the same hex pressure every match.

People do QQ too much, though. GvG is still fun if you take it as such. People are quick to criticize and cry about something without making much of an effort to create new builds and make things more exciting themselves. There will always be counters to any build, and the real fun of GvG should come out of the creative ways to accomplish those counters.

MMSDome · May 12, 2009, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Axiom said it in the other forum so ill post it here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by axiom

The objective of the game is 100% different now, so any kind of comparison is completely skewed. Back in the day, we used to split, pressure, collapse, play for VoD, and much much more. Now two teams run at each other, and the one who kills the other the most efficiently ends up winning.

Vanquisher · May 12, 2009, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Except about Boon Prots. They were degenerate and far too noob-friendly. Unfortunately modern monks are also degenerate (block stances, aegis = ftl). Still, at least now people have incentive to prot properly.

No, on both counts. You have to consider two things - the meta of the time (energy denial and pressure vs. boon prots) and the fact that boon prots dealt heavily in terms of active pre-prot, letting heal party mop up damage.

Aegis being bad it a very, very bad argument and I hate people making it. They seem to not actually realise how much damage gets put out by Warriors and the ease of access to super-buffed disruption that can get thrown on Monks now, not to mention the consistent nerfs to party healing that are forcing teams into running more than one copy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divine Ashes

If anything, this thread took me back to when I actually enjoyed GvG. I know you were focusing on the particular builds, but attention also should be made to VoD, match time limits, the reduction of the number of bodyguards and the introduction of knights, etc. They've played a role also in the fate of GvG.

Mending Touch.

Will make big post later about the progression and stuff.

StManTiS · May 12, 2009, 08:19 PM // 20:19

My biggest problem besides the fact that all of it should be under the the opinion section is that you misuse the word shallow.

By the rationale of your use of it a monk with a bunch of random skills all over the place has more depth than a WoH monk. That and you seem to despise efficiency, you complain of higher and more sustained damage and builds that work just as well but are easier to play. Simply put you like builds that dont work as well but are a beautiful unique snowflake. Thats great, just stay out of PvP please.

JR · May 12, 2009, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Great post Kaon. I agree with all of it.

I'd draw particular attention to the section about Mesmers. They haven't gotten worse as a class, or easier to play, but bars reliant on interrupts are lame.

I like interrupts as a mechanic, but when you rely on them too much it starts being a ping war. I've always much preferred Ranger and Warrior interrupts where it is as much about timing and intuition as it is about reflexes.

Absolutely agree with everything else, and it's a general point I've been making for a long time: Versatility and flexibility are king if you want a depth and fun in your gameplay. Sadly the classes have become more powerful, and narrower.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Except about Boon Prots. They were degenerate and far too noob-friendly. Unfortunately modern monks are also degenerate (block stances, aegis = ftl). Still, at least now people have incentive to prot properly.

Boon prots were easy to play at a decent level, but they were not easy to master. Pre-protting has always been important, and is no more important on a current prot bar than it was back then. If you didn't pre-prot effectively then you burnt your energy too fast red-barring. If anything pre-protting is less important now because you can just WoH to mop up the damage.

Personally I find Monk bars with Defensive Stance and Balanced Stance to be a lot more 'noob friendly' and degenerate.

Greedy Gus · May 12, 2009, 09:01 PM // 21:01

I still feel that a key point that must be addressed before trying to fix party healing and skirmish/flagger stuff, etc. is getting condition removal off of rangers. Prior to mending touch, blind on a flagger or a drop-back party heal char was a trump card (unless you used it poorly) which allowed 2s heal parties, half of a flagger's bar to be offensive assist / utility (not tank base defenders), healing sig usefulness, etc. Consequently, 2sec powerful, expensive heal parties allow for nerfing modern superpower defenses & backlines. Making blind a useful base defense tool allows for nerfing modern superpower base defender flaggers. It all allows for nerfing superpower offensive power creep, while still allowing people to kill stuff, which makes flagger bars another reason to bring offensive support, and to work positionally with flagging tricks to get it at the stand for such support.

At this point, simply nerfing mending touch probably isn't enough, and it may never be possible to get condi removal off rangers. My suggestion before was nerfing stance options and making distortion as the only attractive stance, which has other benefits, while making blackout more attractive to rangers at mid dom spec.

Mentioning blackout, was it ever nerfed very hard for mesmer use? I feel like it was primarily the power creep of pure offense/defense which simply makes stuff like opening small windows in a defense less useful in general (and simply running a mesmer is a liability atm let alone trying to gale/blackout/gale a monk with one). Same logic with how useful toolbox skills/bars are.

It's convoluted and only getting worse, but it is possible to try to untangle the last 2.5 years of balance missteps. Mostly there needs to be an intent to do so, and an inherent mea culpa to admit tangling everything up in the first place (which creates goodwill from the community, useful if gw2 ever comes out). I made a thread almost exactly 1 year ago trying to outline specific skill changes to reach this goal, but I suspect it will be much more difficult after another year.

dsielschott · May 12, 2009, 09:03 PM // 21:03

ok.....I will say this, well written and has some good points....BUT! 3 years ago there were people just like you saying that those skills you spoke of were WAY to overpowered and needed to be tamed. They tame them down and the people who used them (you and thousands of others) get mad, the people who moved passed it and made stronger/better builds began winning and taking over and the powers that were did not like it. Now you are saying that it takes less skill to win GvG because its alot of mindless spamming by warriors, godlike flag runners, and ultra healing monks, well the truth of it is a less experienced player in GvG (i.e. me) would still get dominated against these well thought out teams that people run. When you get 2 equally matched teams that fight it out it usually comes down to who used the smartest tactica at the right time to take out the other team. Luck is part of this game, I make a move that you didn't see coming or I make a move that is a complete counter to what you had set up. This is the major fun in GvG if you ask me, turning your build into something that is the pure hatred of the other team. With this comes complete destruction sometimes but that happens you move on and try again. When you fail you learn and make a BETTER build, you don't come to Guru and complain that they are "balencing" all the wrong skills and don't know what they are doing because there are plenty of people who agree with them and love to see 75% of the changes they make.

You won't always be happy with the changes but work with them play the weakness and strenghts of the skills and find what works for you/your guild.
Mine is the strategic change of mass skills to go against the weakness of a team.(even balenced)

Bottom line is: YES they do change skills I wished they didn't.
NO: I don't think anyone should get fired for the balences.
YES: I do think that you should just go with it instead of complaning.
YES: I wish some monk skills where not as strong but they still take a skilled player to play them.
NO: I do not agree with this thread because this is the game and obviously they are doing something right because YOU still play, and many more are starting up everyday.
(thats a success in my eyes)

Kaon · May 12, 2009, 09:18 PM // 21:18

The problem with guild wars balance is that balance has been dealt wrongly for over 3 years. Every month things got a little bit worse and a little bit more over the top. Over time this has built up to be a giant shitstorm we can't really get out of. If you'd start actually balancing the game now, it would be a ridiculous amount of work.

About the monk issue. You can argue how current monks take much more skill to play than boonprots. I would disagree but this is irrelevant. The point is current monks have an ENOURMOUS negative impact on the game. As I stated they're the most buffed and overpowered profession in the game, therefore they do the most harm. If you want to seriously improve the game then current monks have to simply GO.

Quote:

With the current state of balance, rangers, water and fire skills deal way too much damage compared to what they did before. Current necro bars cause more pressure as well even though hexes have been imba as well in older metas.

The lingering curse bar is even more easy-mode and degenerate than any bar posted above. What you're saying is that the game is even worsely balanced than I portrayed. You're right, it is. I tried to stay positive and tried to find similar builds to make a good comparison. Comparing a bsurge to an ether prodigy ele is easier than comparing a necromacner to an ether prodigy ele, partially because the necromancer is something we have only experienced for the last months, but the bsurger has been around for years with the same issues.

Quote:

The objective of the game is 100% different now, so any kind of comparison is completely skewed. Back in the day, we used to split, pressure, collapse, play for VoD, and much much more. Now two teams run at each other, and the one who kills the other the most efficiently ends up winning.

True. But builds that went directly for those objectives were gimmicks. Both builds listed uptop are bent on getting a general advantage over the opponent; killing them, getting some npcs, getting moral. The changed to vod have not influenced these builds too much.

Really, in ladderplay during prophecies, who DID play for VoD? Perhaps only 2% of the guilds.

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Mentioning blackout, was it ever nerfed very hard for mesmer use? I feel like it was primarily the power creep of pure offense/defense which simply makes stuff like opening small windows in a defense less useful in general (and simply running a mesmer is a liability atm let alone trying to gale/blackout/gale a monk with one). Same logic with how useful toolbox skills/bars are.

It's recharge was nerfed, it's lasting time was nerfed, distortion was nerfed making it suicide/dshot fodder, other domination alternatives have been introduced. Domination magic is the best attribute in the game and a mesmer will always have the most cramped bar, this means skills heavily compete with each other and only the smallest nerf can cause a skill to disappear forever (see energy burn). Also warriors building quicker, and damage coming from other sources.

Again this thread is definately not meant as a whine. But as an objective analysation of skillbalance, together with a bit of nostalgia

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Still Number One · May 12, 2009, 09:25 PM // 21:25

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Originally Posted by dsielschott

Bottom line is:
YES: I do think that you should just go with it instead of complaning.
YES: I wish some monk skills where not as strong but they still take a skilled player to play them.
NO: I do not agree with this thread because this is the game and obviously they are doing something right because YOU still play, and many more are starting up everyday.
(thats a success in my eyes)

If someone isn't happy about something they have every right to express their opinions on the subject. No he should not just deal with it. He should let his voice be heard and people should listen.

Every class in the game takes some skill, even retarded spamming of WE. The power creep just allows you to get away with mistakes you shouldn't be able to. That needs to be fixed.

and on your last point....WHAT????? He only plays byob now and gave up taking this game seriously, and no many more people are not starting up everyday. We are not discussing Guild Wars as a whole. This thread has nothing to do with the 15 year old kid who bought prophecies yesterday and is trying to tame himself a melandru's stalker with an E/R beast master flare spammer. This is about the state of the game in high end gvg play and the population has been on a steady decline for 2 years now. New people are not jumping into the game. People are leaving. Therefore, they are doing something wrong. The OP does a nice job on touching what that something is.