Curse

Celeborn10 · May 11, 2009, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

[offering of blood] - 17% sac, 12r.

[divine boon] - decrease healing by 5 at 12 divine, lower energy loss to one.

Nerf WoH, Damage, PwK, WE, and all that other shit.

But buff DB and OOB!!!

Why not revert [Mantra of Recall]? Why OoB?

Killed u man · May 11, 2009, 05:56 AM // 05:56

Quote:

Balance Forum bullshit

And that turned out to work really great:

-HA is as dead as ever (Yeah, it's the format that sucks right?)
-RA/TA are a joke
-HB is lolbuildwars
-Zaishen... Wait, what the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO is that shit still doing on the PvP-Battle-Isles?

But hey, atleast dR managed to get their well-earned gold-cape now, and rawr managed to get more capes than any PvE'er could dream off.

Private balance concept: RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing fail.

Why? Well, 99% because I'm not part of it, 1% because GW IS RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING DEAD.

What ever prevented Izzy from going on guru, making a thread: "Suggested Balance Updates", and have some kind of vote system on skill updates.

Or even a simple choice in dartboard buffs (Which can be fun, tbh).

No instead, we keep getting a total shit, 2 months delayed (And the irony here is that the skills itself are also 2 months outdated. I'm guessing by now, Izzy will realize that W/A spike is starting to become a problem, and that Bspike is as prominent as ever. Expect a nerf... In 6 months) skill balance.

Yeah, we give alot of shit to izzy, but you can't throw him a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOin bone when he didn't even try. He didn't reach out to the community, he just selected some luck-few, and after all said-and-done it failed miserably.

Zabe · May 11, 2009, 07:49 AM // 07:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

And that turned out to work really great:

-HA is as dead as ever (Yeah, it's the format that sucks right?)
-RA/TA are a joke
-HB is lolbuildwars
-Zaishen... Wait, what the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO is that shit still doing on the PvP-Battle-Isles?

Yea, everyone care from HB, RA and TA and HA balance.

For your information, those platforms have never been balanced.

4v4 arenas would need own skillsets (like PvP - PvE split) to be even possible balanced.

HA has always been, run the most broken shit (more than GvG due to the tacticless nature of HA) and there is no reason to try balance HA as GvG is in the form as it is.

And HB is just full of bullshit of abusing broken AI.

Alleji · May 11, 2009, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

What ever prevented Izzy from going on guru, making a thread: "Suggested Balance Updates", and have some kind of vote system on skill updates.

Or even a simple choice in dartboard buffs (Which can be fun, tbh).

Looks like a great idea! You would be letting people like this vote on skill balance.

Then it starts looking even better when you realize that they make up the majority of posters in Riverside.

Killed u man · May 11, 2009, 08:37 AM // 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Looks like a great idea! You would be letting people like this vote on skill balance.

Then it starts looking even better when you realize that they make up the majority of posters in Riverside.

So?

How are his (The guy you posted) random dartboard udates any worse than what we have now?

Also @ Zabe:

Yeah, HA is lesser tactics than GvG, because it's not like GvG, in it's current state, is: go in 8v8 and kill sheit.

As shit as it is, atleast in HA, you have more than 1 objective. (Run, Cap altar, etc)

In GvG right now, it's simply making sure your Mind Shock Ele and PoD use their skills on 1...

As for RA/TA:

It's dealing with the same skills the other formats are. LC is OP, Rangers are too good at interrupting. (As in, you can spam Dshot and Savage endlessly)

Hiding behind the: "We can't balance it because it will mess up other formats"-excuse is old, lame, and simply untrue.
I don't see how nerfing hexway (THE bane of TA atm) will affect GvG in a negative way...

Quote:

And HB is just full of bullshit of abusing broken AI.

And that's it's own fault, right? Maybe if Anet would update the Hero AI (Imo, players should have been given the option to "code" their own hero AI for each individual skill) so that they can use more than 2 skill bars per profession, it wouldn't be in the shit it's in right now.

Shadowsteps are getting abused, Monk are still too OP compared to the rest, and packers need to be tomed down. (Don't even start on VoR, that build is only so OP because packers are)

Grj · May 11, 2009, 09:36 AM // 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alleji

Looks like a great idea! You would be letting people like this vote on skill balance.

Then it starts looking even better when you realize that they make up the majority of posters in Riverside.

Remember the heavy hex meta not too long ago? People where screaming for a list of hexes to be nerfed mainly necro one's if i recall rightly. Now if a person (maybe the person in your quote) rolled into a balace discussion thread a said what we need is a elite skill that removes a stack of hexes and conditions say 0...7...9 conditions and 0...7...9 hexes. Make it 5e and 7s recharge, how many of you would of flamed the hell out this poster?

Fast forward some time and look what we have now, we have a elite skill more powerfull then what any type of player could ever dream off.

xDementia · May 11, 2009, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zabe

4v4 arenas would need own skillsets (like PvP - PvE split) to be even possible balanced.

Skills like ZB are the kind of skills that are supposed to good in 4v4 while being worse in GvG or any format with more than 1 monk because you never get the bonus.

By taking advantage in a conscious way of components that are different in both formats you can make skills that will be strong in one and bad in the other.

Say for example a skill you want to be good in 4v4 but not that great in 8v8, could come with a "lose 1-2 energy for each ally in the area". It would be bad in 8v8 fights, decent on offensive splits but weak to defend a base. To prevent abuse from other classes maybe it would have to be tied to primary attributes.

Motoko · May 11, 2009, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

Why? Well, 99% because I'm not part of it

At what point would, letting someone who hasn't touched GvG beyond eE having a significant say in any attempt at a balance, be a fair representation of non-fail?

If you troll effectively enough you will notice that even the higher end players barely ripple an effect in the skill balance scene.

Can you come troll this guy mitch while I go sleep? <3ty!

kvndoom · May 11, 2009, 11:32 AM // 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grj

Remember the heavy hex meta not too long ago? People where screaming for a list of hexes to be nerfed mainly necro one's if i recall rightly. Now if a person (maybe the person in your quote) rolled into a balace discussion thread a said what we need is a elite skill that removes a stack of hexes and conditions say 0...7...9 conditions and 0...7...9 hexes. Make it 5e and 7s recharge, how many of you would of flamed the hell out this poster?

Fast forward some time and look what we have now, we have a elite skill more powerfull then what any type of player could ever dream off.

Of course no one would have accepted that idea. But that's what the game keeps getting. Instead of addressing the problem (too many powerful hexes with low recharge), Izzy took the lazy route and just made one super skill that kills hexes dead.

Buffing counters instead of addressing the actual problems is nothing more than laziness. [smiter's boon] and [for great justice] were laziness in the other direction- kill the skill entirely instead of fixing what made it abused in the first place. Either way, it takes a lot less proactive thought (kill the problem skill, make a universal counter) than actually fixing the problem.

Killed u man · May 11, 2009, 11:44 AM // 11:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

At what point would, letting someone who hasn't touched GvG beyond eE having a significant say in any attempt at a balance, be a fair representation of non-fail?

If you troll effectively enough you will notice that even the higher end players barely ripple an effect in the skill balance scene.

Can you come troll this guy mitch while I go sleep? <3ty!

GvG =/= GW

And even then, I've crunched so many numbers, made so many builds. I can pretty much name every skill in this game. That is what does make me eligable for skill balancing, imo.

I also have more than enough GvG experience anyways

reaper with no name · May 11, 2009, 12:51 PM // 12:51

Let's see here...skill update wishlist? Ok.

Sins

Seriously, SF needs to be a form. See skill name. The problem with the skill is not the invulnerability, but the perma. For those who claim that permaSF makes the game more fun, I ask this: why doesn't every other profession get a perma-invulnerability combo? If everyone had their own permaSF, I wouldn't care. But they don't. It's not fair to everyone else for Sins and only sins to have God mode.

That said, SF should lose the health loss as well. Ironically, non-perma SF would currently suck due to it. But, remove the perma and the health loss and the skill is perfect.

Monks

RoJ itself isn't the problem. The problem is that AI doesn't scatter when it's used (like they should). Fix that. Any direct nerfs to RoJ will make it completely useless against humans (some would say it already is).

Dervishes

Oh, where to start? AoM is fine (it's one of the few decent avatars). WS is also fine. I don't see where people get the idea that it's overpowered. It's really not any more powerful than Reaper's Sweep. Yes, it has a 3-sec recharge, but it doesn't do any extra damage. You don't need to inflict bleeding and deep wound every 3 seconds. The only time that comes into play is when you kill something right after inflicting it and switch to a new target. The advantage of WS is it's ability to consistently inflict DW (whereas Reaper's Sweep gets damage in exchange for only inflicting DW sometimes).

AoG and AoB suck. Fix them. AoG should makes attacks unblockable period, and have around 15-25 life steal. AoB is fukly replicable without elite skills, so it needs to have something else. Maybe add armor penetration? Or just make the armor +60.

Vow of Silence is a joke. It makes you almost immune to spellcasters for a pathetic 7 sec while depriving you of spellcasting. By comparison, any skill that inflicts blindness makes you almost immune to melee for at least as long but doesn't impair your own ability to fight. And that doesn't have to be an elite skill. Either increase the duration of Vow of Silence, or make it not interfere with your own spellcasting.

IMMORTAlMITCH · May 11, 2009, 01:14 PM // 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

GvG =/= GW

GvG = 'competitive' GW

Quote:

And even then, I've crunched so many numbers, made so many builds. I can pretty much name every skill in this game. That is what does make me eligable for skill balancing, imo.

How does crunching numbers and being able to name every skill in this game equate to being eligible? It doesn't say anything about your knowledge of game mechanics and predicting effects certain changes will have on the metagame.

Quote:

I also have more than enough GvG experience anyways

I have no idea who you are, but I'm willing to dispute this (partially BECAUSE I have no idea who you are and partially because of the handful of your posts I've read).

Vanquisher · May 11, 2009, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

GvG =/= GW

And even then, I've crunched so many numbers, made so many builds. I can pretty much name every skill in this game. That is what does make me eligable for skill balancing, imo.

I also have more than enough GvG experience anyways

GvG, as the most competitive and highest form of PvP in this game, is what defines balance.

On the second point, I can't name every skill in the game, but I'm pretty sure my input in terms of balance would be better than yours. Mind, I don't bitch about the fact I don't have input - rather I'll try and prod the people who do into bringing them up. Honestly the system in place is as good as there could be. The only problem is a lot of the people who do have access don't really seem to think about the long-term, so when they see a problem they'll argue for it to be fixed, without rationilising the consequences of any such fix.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

stuff

No.

Killed u man · May 11, 2009, 01:53 PM // 13:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

GvG = 'competitive' GW

How does crunching numbers and being able to name every skill in this game equate to being eligible? It doesn't say anything about your knowledge of game mechanics and predicting effects certain changes will have on the metagame.

I have no idea who you are, but I'm willing to dispute this (partially BECAUSE I have no idea who you are and partially because of the handful of your posts I've read).

So is HA, TA and HB...

I don't know, how DOES knowing all the numbers and figures help you balance the skills?! Dum die dum dum...
The fact that I know every meta, I know what skills already exists and what synergies there are, gives me a good idea of what the affects of the skill updates will do.

There is also some things nobody can predict, such as the Mind Blast ele. It fell out of favor, yet now it is back. Obviously, AoR has something to do with it, but the bar always had enough energy.

I hurd U are mitch, who had to play W/A spike to get his Gold Cape. Very glorious indeed, if you wanna start with the whoru game...

Vanquisher · May 11, 2009, 02:04 PM // 14:04

HA is not competitive GW. Nor is TA, as the end game is balanced around 8 man teams, not 4. Skills simply cannot be balanced for both formats at the same time. And don't get me started on HB.

Knowing all the skills, numbers, and figures doesn't really matter. The mechanics and concepts are much more indicitative of balance, consequences, and metas. Sure it helps, but a simple glance at the numbers/conditions of a skill tells you pretty much everything you need to know about it.

And I'm pretty sure Mind Blast was predictable and it incredibly stupid. The change to the bar of old didn't address the actual problem (which is Mind Blast fuelling energy to stupid levels). The thing here is, people like split play. But only if the split play is appealing to them. It's incredibly stupid but that's the way it is - like I said, bias in the way things are best balanced and towards a particular playstyle is a common factor in peoples beliefs of how skills should be balanced.

And as for your insult - gold capes have (almost) always come from Build Wars since EW's FoC spike, so you're really just making yourself look foolish.

refer · May 11, 2009, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

All enchantments - few things are more frustrating than seeing an otherwise well-timed preprot destroyed by enchantment removal. All enchantments may no longer be removed by a hostile foe within 2 seconds after application.

What!? Please tell me you're kidding... but then again I happen to love ripping enchantments off of people as soon as I see them go on lol.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Simple Thievery - unless you conveniently stuck points into the relevant attribute, what's the point? The stolen skill now uses your Fast Casting attribute.

Same for Symbols of Inspiration... I would say that skill is just as hard, but I do love it. And it should use skills, not spells. That's limiting.

IMMORTAlMITCH · May 11, 2009, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killed u man

So is HA, TA and HB...

HA and TA aren't competitive, there's no ladder for it, there's never been any prizes for it and there's nothing to lose and (titles/chest drops aside) nothing to win. HB is a joke by itsself, it's pretty much universally agreed upon that GvG is the competitive gametype of GW (hence there not being tournaments like GWWC/GWFC or any tournaments really for other gametypes).

Quote:

I don't know, how DOES knowing all the numbers and figures help you balance the skills?! Dum die dum dum...

Knowing skills is important to an extent, but just knowing skills doesn't mean you have any idea about the bigger picture.

Quote:

The fact that I know every meta, I know what skills already exists and what synergies there are, gives me a good idea of what the affects of the skill updates will do.

That's cute, why don't you try to convince Izzy to give access to this selfproclaimed oracle of skillbalance then?

Quote:

I hurd U are mitch, who had to play W/A spike to get his Gold Cape. Very glorious indeed, if you wanna start with the whoru game...

I've also won more silver capes than just about anyone else in this game running a wide variety of different builds, whereas if sources are correct, the only thing you're 'known' for is running ritspike on ladder and being top 100 for a month or two ages ago.

Jeydra · May 11, 2009, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by refer

What!? Please tell me you're kidding... but then again I happen to love ripping enchantments off of people as soon as I see them go on lol.

I'm not kidding, the time might need reworking though.

@Mitch / Vanq / Killed - there's no doubting that GvG gets almost all the balance, but if you're going to press for GvG balance above all else then I can't help but call you elitist.

Maybe GvG is the most competitive of all Guild Wars PvP, but so what? It does not mean the other PvP formats do not need balancing. It might mean GvG should get the most attention, but it does not mean the other formats should get no attention. I can easily argue for balancing RA, JQ and AB above all other PvP formats because they see the most play - want to ask ANet how many RA games are played everyday compared to how many GvG games? Even considering for the fact that GvGs are 8v8 and RAs 4v4, I bet more players are involved in RA. If you balance only with GvG in mind you will negatively affect PvP in general.

I firmly believe balance should be focused on GvG, but not ignore the other formats. If something is overpowered in one format, then regardless of how weak it might be in the other formats it should be nerfed. If something is underpowered in one format, then if it does not negatively affects the other formats it should be buffed.

Example: Ray of Judgment is overpowered in JQ, where it wrecks NPC shrines with a single cast. Needs nerf. If it affects GvG negatively, too bad. JQ balance is necessary just as GvG balance is.
Alternative example: Lingering Curse is overpowered in GvG, it applies too much pressure coming from a single character. Needs nerf. If it affects JQ negatively (which it does), too bad. GvG balance is necessary just as JQ balance is.
Third example: Sandstorm is underpowered in GvG, but it is reasonably good in HA. Hence should not buff. HA balance is necessary just as every other kind of balance is.

I have no problems with >90% of the balance updates being focused on GvG. I do object however to glaring imbalances in other formats ignored because of GvG balance. If you are going to argue that since GvG is the competitive Guild Wars PvP and so everything should be balanced around it, then I will disagree, plain and simple.

reaper with no name · May 11, 2009, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

No.

Ok, sure, let's keep the dervishes sucking. Why not?

Killed u man · May 11, 2009, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

HA and TA aren't competitive, there's no ladder for it, there's never been any prizes for it and there's nothing to lose and (titles/chest drops aside) nothing to win. HB is a joke by itsself, it's pretty much universally agreed upon that GvG is the competitive gametype of GW (hence there not being tournaments like GWWC/GWFC or any tournaments really for other gametypes).

I've also won more silver capes than just about anyone else in this game running a wide variety of different builds, whereas if sources are correct, the only thing you're 'known' for is running ritspike on ladder and being top 100 for a month or two ages ago.

Pretty sure the reason why they're no such thing as HA, TA and HB tournies, is because there IS NO MATCH-UP SYSTEM.

So what, people should "sync" HA Zaishen and hope they faced eachother in a tournie?

And you're misquoting me aswell. I agree that GvG is the most important part about PvP, but HA and HB, aswell as TA are too...

Also, WHY is HB a joke? Because of bad skill balance (Non, really). The format itself could work, if only they did 1 skill balance a month.