Curse

Motoko · May 07, 2009, 12:20 AM // 00:20

The warriors endurance bar promotes no skill whatsoever.
It's getting nerfed so I don't see the point in discussing it.
It will be utilized for spike builds and thats it, if even that.

Warriors endurance is one of the biggest issues that needs addressing. Everybuild you look on obs is warriors endurance. The only reason people can run a fc mes, mindshock, smiter and a regular 3 backline BUT STILL KILL IS A PROBLEM. People need to be forced to take less defense and more offense so they can actually kill.

THAT IS THE PROBLEM IN THIS META.

moriz · May 07, 2009, 02:36 AM // 02:36

warrior's endurance
5e 12r
elite skill. for 1...12 seconds, you gain 3 energy for each melee hit you inflict. this skill ends if you fail to hit a foe with an attack. this skill will not raise your maximum energy above 10...25.

dartboard change yeye.

wtfisgoingon · May 07, 2009, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xyon the Greatest

Okay I am bored so...

General Updates:

-Make Paragons more effective in PvP
-Buff Spawning Power
-Lessen Ranger's Crazy Elemental Defence on Armor (Because of there uncountable amount of blocking skills)

Specific Skill Updates:

Warrior:

["None Shall Pass!"] Make this so that Tactics is actually involved in the skill such as (0...3 nearby foes), and lower the recharge to 20/30

[Bull's Charge] Increase recharge to 30 and remove the "end if you use a skill" then It might actually be used for once

[Defy Pain] 8 Andrenaline, or lower the maximum health

[Shield Bash] Make it (2...9) seconds, if you nerf disciplined stance, you gotta nerf this, it is also very annoying.

Ranger:

[Crippling Shot] Increase Cripple to (3..16)

[Dryder's Defenses] This is just like invincibility for 10 seconds, lower the recharge to 45, lower the elemental protection, and lower the block to 50%

[Famine] Increase Damage to (25...80), Give a -1 Energy Degen, increase recharge to 45 seconds

[Greater Conflagration] Destroy this skill

[Hunter's Shot] Recharge to 12

[Incendiary Arrows] Increase burning to (0...5) seconds again

[Marksman's Wager] Destroy this skill, this is a joke skill

[Poison Arrow] There is something called poisin tip signet, or apply poison DESTROY

Monk:

[Balthazar's Pendulum] Also Deals (20...60) Damage when it takes effect

[Blessed Light] 5 Energy

[Healing Hands] 10 Energy, 15 recharge

[Life Barrier] Destroy this skill

[Peace and Harmony] 3/4 Cast, Lower Hex and Condition removal to (0..3..5)

[Word of Censure] 5 energy so then it could be somewhat compared to RoJ

Necromancer:

[Faintheartedness] Lower Duration to (3...14)

[Life Transfer] Lower Duration to (2...8)

[Lingering Curse] Lower Duration to (3...15)

[Pain of Disenchantment] Many people want to nerf this skill, but I wanna buff it to an elite rend enchantments: Change to "Remove all enchantments from target foe, for each enchantment removed target foe loses (10...40) health (Maximum 120)

[Rend Enchantments] Change to "Remove (4...10) enchantments, for each enchantment removed, you take (80...40) Damage" Make it 30 Recharge

[Rigor Mortis] Decrease duration to (3...15) seconds

Mesmer:

[Ineptitude] Lower Damage to (10...90), Lower recharge to 15

[Shatter Storm] Personally to me, this is a very wierd and old looking skill, I think it should be changed to "For 5 seconds all nearby foes take 30 damage and lose an enchantment a second" 3 Activation, 30 Recharge

Elementalist:

[Blurred Vision] Increase recharge to 15

[Crystal Wave][Teinai's Crystals] Take out the condition removal

[Ether Prism] Increase recharge to 20

Assassin:

[Beguiling Haze] 10 energy, 15 recharge

[Dark Escape] Way overpowered on monks, lower duration to (3...10)

[Dark Prison] Subs shadow prison, make it 45 second recharge/ (0...3) second

[Expose Defenses] 20 recharge, and (1...6) seconds, or sins will keep rigor mortising

[Feigned Neutrality] Annoying skill, decrease duration to (1...7) seconds, Increase duration to 45 seconds

[Mark of Insecurity] How about make it "For (3...15) seconds target foe cannot use stances"

[Shadow Prison] This is inferior to ["You're all alone!"] I would lower recharge to 15 seconds

[Shroud of Silence] Just delete this skill Anet if you hate it that bad

Ritualist:

[Ancestors' Rage (PvP)] Restore it back to PvE version

[Blind Was Mingson] Lower holding time to (10...30) Seconds

[Shadowsong] Lower blind to (1...3) Seconds

[Splinter Weapon (PvP)] Revert back to Pve Version

[Weapon of Shadow] Reduce blind to 2 seconds

Dervish:

[Onslaught] Increase duration to (8...30) seconds

[Pious Concentration] Increase recharge to 10 seconds

Paragon:

["Incoming!"] Increase duration to (2...7) seconds, and paragons might actually be able to be some kind of support in PvP

["The Power Is Yours!"] Increase duration to 5 seconds

[Defensive Anthem (PvP)] 10 energy, 20 recharge

[Song of Restoration (PvP)] 5 energy, 15 recharge

Oh ya, and also the majority of sin builds barely take any skill to use

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Please never post on any forum ever again.

agreed
121212122

Azure mist · May 07, 2009, 05:54 AM // 05:54

ahqhhahahahhahaahahahhahahahahahhqhqhahahahhahahah ahahahhahahahajahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahahha hahah

Lmao SoC nerf? Sweet I love havinga 7 hour relic run game

Don't be stupid

tigros · May 07, 2009, 07:26 AM // 07:26

I like to be "surprised" by balance changes

.

IMMORTAlMITCH · May 07, 2009, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigros

I like to be "surprised" by balance changes

.

I doubt anyone is still surprised by this, but the update is delayed till 'next week'.

I Angra I · May 07, 2009, 08:46 AM // 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I doubt anyone is still surprised by this, but the update is delayed till 'next week'.

It would have been a bigger surprise if it came on time.

scruffy · May 07, 2009, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

The warriors endurance bar promotes no skill whatsoever.
It's getting nerfed so I don't see the point in discussing it.
It will be utilized for spike builds and thats it, if even that.

Warriors endurance is one of the biggest issues that needs addressing. Everybuild you look on obs is warriors endurance. The only reason people can run a fc mes, mindshock, smiter and a regular 3 backline BUT STILL KILL IS A PROBLEM. People need to be forced to take less defense and more offense so they can actually kill.

THAT IS THE PROBLEM IN THIS META.

Maybe it's because I've seen so many builds in the past with more defense than this, but I don't consider this extremely defensive. The kappa mesmer has the ability to be defensive with blurred vision, but anything after that is dropping one of your spike skills + 10 energy, the same goes with the smiter's bane signet. The only real source of defense is the blinding flash on the ele, which can be power blocked by a mesmer or knocked down by a hammer warrior pretty easily. I guess the problem is that nobody is using shutdown anymore in favor of the 123 durp durp durp builds.

The kappa mesmer's damage should be fixed so that it is affected by armor and actually stacks onto the spells regular damage, I don't really have any problems with the mind shock ele I think it's pretty balanced, same goes for the smiter.

Greedy Gus · May 07, 2009, 03:59 PM // 15:59

That's just wrong. Those are absolutely 3 defensive midliners, which just spike so strong you can get away with it.

Apok Omen · May 07, 2009, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure mist

ahqhhahahahhahaahahahhahahahahahhqhqhahahahhahahah ahahahhahahahajahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahahha hahah

Lmao SoC nerf? Sweet I love havinga 7 hour relic run game

Don't be stupid

What the hell does SoC have to do with relic runs?

I made the suggestion because I wanted to alleviate one more skill that forced people to run /P in every HA build (even though I know they still will because of Make Haste)

I'm sorry that I miss old tombs, where all you needed to bring was enough damage and support to achieve victory.

All in all, I hope Anet listens to Mitch's suggestions. His ideas are the best so far.

hurric · May 07, 2009, 11:39 PM // 23:39

haven't you heard? SoC makes you run relics thru foes.

Vanquisher · May 08, 2009, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

The warriors endurance bar promotes no skill whatsoever.
It's getting nerfed so I don't see the point in discussing it.
It will be utilized for spike builds and thats it, if even that.

Warriors endurance is one of the biggest issues that needs addressing. Everybuild you look on obs is warriors endurance. The only reason people can run a fc mes, mindshock, smiter and a regular 3 backline BUT STILL KILL IS A PROBLEM. People need to be forced to take less defense and more offense so they can actually kill.

THAT IS THE PROBLEM IN THIS META.

You are wrong and misguided, and failing to see the 'bigger picture'. That's one in a multitude of problems, but ask yourself this - what are the reasons behind it being such a huge problem?

Theoretically, 6 of the characters in that build should have 60 AL. In reality, they have closer to 80.
Theoretically, prot should be able to stop huge spike bursts, but in reality, that huge spike burst can happen every few seconds and deep strips completely nullify any form of protection.

There are a lot of problems that come from consta-spiking. To begin with, the fact it's one of the best forms of pressure is retarded. In my view, the two best forms of energy denial should be through well, energy denial focused builds, and well run pressure builds. Unfortunately now you can run stuff like unspecced energy management that doesn't require an elite slot, denial through denial skills kinda goes out the window. Then you have this pressure concept, which works well, but what you've got now is spike builds that can pressure so effectively, or pressure builds that can spike so effectively, coming from the ability to smack deep wounds on characters every few seconds.

Then you have ease-of-use skills like deep strips, which aid spikes in such a huge manner it's retarded. These are so 1-dimensional in terms of use I don't know why they still exist in current form, let alone have been added to - and that's without even thinking about the fact they're also dealing damage/life stealing. Other skills like Lingering Curse, which is so out of whack the only way to play against it somewhat is with a supercharged PnH. I just don't get where this whole thing is coming from.

And while we're on the topic of ease of use, let's take a quick look at the Mind Blast template, which can deal stupid amounts of damage under very little threat, and just doesn't ever run out of juice. The fact these guys can clear an entire base without thinking twice about dying, including a Guild Lord, before 5 minutes, is ridiculous and very much similar to the old-school Fragility Mesmer before those got destroyed.

You know what else is a huge thing that's been consistently taken the wrong way? Party Healing. Now this annoys me in particular. It's in a very strange place. I'd consider the good forms of party healing that we've had to be Heal Party and LoD. I don't really get this whole "PwK is stupidly overpowered" thing. The aspect that I can perhaps take issue with is the double dropping, but after that's happened once the caster will have to start cycling them and you've (probably) got a stronger field position than before. The issue with party healing isn't the individual skills being overpowered - realistically in terms of their cost (cast/cost/recharge) they're pretty weak, it's the fact you can take multiple copies and it's a stop-station vs. pressure. While I'd often argue that that's just build wars, and it's making the team far more immobile so you should just split them, split mechanics and other skill changes make that an argument that just won't hold up unless there's a dramatic overhaul.

Anyway, I'm off the point. The problem with this meta is the same as will be the problem with the next meta, as is the same as the problem with xyz past metas. The mechanics of this game are completely out of whack and while they remain unaddressed, no matter what sort of balance patch gets given nothing will really change. You might see the odd build change, but one style will always be favourable to others. There needs to be some form of ground where you can actually run balanced (and here I'm talking actual balanced play, not a spike build that can split because they happen to be including a Ranger and NPC-redbar Flagger) so there are more ways to force kills (spiking, pressuring, window-killing while 8/8'ing, with collapses and flagger kills on splits).

Animate · May 08, 2009, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Dear Vanquisher,

qft.

finally someone ^^

Reverend Dr · May 08, 2009, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Vanq on party wide-effects: Energy cost, recharge time, and cast time are the largest ways to balance party wide effects (including party healing). Increasing the first two largely just ends up with more energy management skills and more party-wide skills being brought (oh that lovely defensive web meta). I've always felt that party-wide skills should have slightly longer casts, making them more prone for disruption (such as heal-party). For requiring less thought about whom to target, I feel requiring more thought about when to cast is preferable. This won't necessarily relieve the whole fact that it is a stop station vs pressure, but it will allow pressure more opportunity to disrupt the party healing and gain ground.

I've never had a problem with heal party (then again it saw play in a meta where largely every team had two warriors, a dom mesmer, and a ranger while that flagger bar was largely fragile), or LoD (it is elite after all, subject to hum sig, and also saw play during a dom heavy meta). PwK's double drop is kind of strong, but its real annoyance is that it isn't easily disruptable nor is it worth pushing for the way LoD or Heal Party were. That combined with the fact that it can be used to trigger "while holding an item" conditionals confounds it, which I really feel is the heart of why PwK keeps seeing play. The divine healings I hate, not because of their game mechanics, but because it encourages running a third monk primary.

Motoko · May 08, 2009, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Still, the initial problem with a balance in the meta is that builds are allowed to run so much defense while still being able to push your team in at stand. The fact that a team can afford two healers at base and warriors are spamming 400 damage every 3 seconds is stupid. People wouldn't be able to afford that much defense if they didn't produce that much damage.

Your points are all valid Vanquisher, but I wouldn't say they are the primary issue. Enchantment strips goes under with what I was talking about. So does the spikes not really being affected by good prots.

Nerfing PwK would give some more variety, but people would still find a way to stick in some party healing.

xDementia · May 08, 2009, 10:40 PM // 22:40

Who asked for a Spirit Bond nerf upping the recharge by the way? Was it the players complaining about it or Izzy? Should it be 2s recharge again?

Animate · May 09, 2009, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDementia

Who asked for a Spirit Bond nerf upping the recharge by the way? Was it the players complaining about it or Izzy? Should it be 2s recharge again?

Who asked for a buff to Burning Arrow?
Who wanted Smiter's Boon to be so fine tuned and well adjusted?
Who said that Assassins and Paragons should just "die"?
Who complained about Assassins that assassinated?

And why do people not bring self-heal skills anymore?
Because they put them on their flag runner?
Or because nobody splits anymore?
Because they rather take more Monks and party heals?

Why do people think that Interrupts require Skill, rather than Ping?
Why do people hardly use Skills anymore that activate longer than a second?
Why became interrupts the only form of shutdown?

Why are hexes lame and interrupt spamming not?
Because they allow players with bad ping to perform well?

If you think that a bar is lame, requires too little skill - according to your philosophy - shouldn't you just add dshot to it?

[immolate][liquid flame][mind blast][meteor][distracting shot][fire attunement][aura of restoration][resurrection signet]

Questions, questions..
The good news is, that there now is a Random Button in the Xunlai Tournament House, a Zoo for the Iway players, and daily quests for people who need to be told what to do.

And also, that future Balance Updates will happen every three instead of each month from now on.

These are the facts.

Ec]-[oMaN · May 09, 2009, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Winner!!! What's my dinner?

Burton2000 · May 09, 2009, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ec]-[oMaN

Winner!!! What's my dinner?

Chicken ?

Nah but seriously I really don't have high hopes for this balance and I doubt its been changed much from what it was 2 months ago when it was going to get released.

xDementia · May 09, 2009, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Animate

Questions, questions..

Damage has become stronger, harder to stop and to deal with because classes that used to be ineffective at this job (rangers, eles and consequently fast cast eles) bring more to the table than warriors ever could. That's because they are either too resilient or equaly strong at offense and defense.

There's no need for shutdown when damage allows to get kills on its own without ever needing to shut anything down. High frequency, big numbers, compression and the fact it is hard to shutdown (by using fast casting or MoR or MoC or even Pious concentration) makes it the weapon of choice.

When casters and rangers used to be bad at dealing damage flagrunners could count on blinding flash to deal with the only sources of damage that would be a problem. Now the only answer left to defend NPCs is red bars go up oriented because at least it can deal with multiple types of damage sources.

Self healing being out of the picture is for a lot of reasons:

-Adds useless redundancy at the flagstand
-The opportunity cost in attributes and skill slot is too high compared to what an additionnal offensive tool brings to the table or to the non-redundant form of self defense a stance allows.
-Most self healing skills are bad but they would have to be super imba to compensate for the above reason.
-Melee classes with self healing are still inferior to casters or ranged characters with or without self healing when it comes to killing NPCs
...