Curse

English Warrior · Apr 23, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

to fix backbreaker make the KD fail if under 4 strength...

moriz · Apr 23, 2009, 09:39 PM // 21:39

if you want to talk about how it works out in the long term, here's the simplified version:

-50% IMS is equivalent to 25% IMS x2. in its current form, dash provides the same overall speed as a 6 second 25% IMS, at 8 second recharge
-if increased to 5 seconds duration, dash would provide the equivalent of a 25% IMS with 10 second duration, at 8 second recharge. in other words, it's equivalent to a permanent sprint/rush, but with even better recharge

of course, the above does not take into account the huge benefit of the huge burst of speed dash can provide. even in its current form, it allows a player to outrun just about everything in those three seconds. give more duration, and it would just be flatout broken. dash would be the end all be all of speed boosts. it will eclipse everything else so utterly that most other IMS would become irrelevant.

if you give this to sins, people STILL won't run them in gvg. all it will accomplish is making them even more powerful in lower end arenas, specifically AB. you might as well make assassins invincible then, because they can just out maneuver everything.

dash is fine the way it is. please drop this subject.

ensoriki · Apr 23, 2009, 09:54 PM // 21:54

I will drop the subject, and I did apologize.
However in an attempt to save some dignity, numerous IMS skills are not just IMS's and have other benefits to them, Dash among a few others, are focused purely on running.
Dash eclipsing other popular IMS's is likely because of their other clauses, or the profession they are on.
Dash being like Rush is not 100% comparable do to being different professions, and if something wants Dash they have to be /A which obviously blocks them from other favorable skills from other professions.
Though I am dropping the subject.
Moving on.

iTzF3aR · Apr 23, 2009, 10:00 PM // 22:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

I will drop the subject, and I did apologize.
However in an attempt to save some dignity, numerous IMS skills are not just IMS's and have other benefits to them, Dash among a few others, are focused purely on running.
Dash eclipsing other popular IMS's is likely because of their other clauses, or the profession they are on.
Dash being like Rush is not 100% comparable do to being different professions, and if something wants Dash they have to be /A which obviously blocks them from other favorable skills from other professions.
Though I am dropping the subject.
Moving on.

Let's talk about more broken skills shall we ? I'll start. Mind Blast Distortion Ele anyone ?

makosi · Apr 23, 2009, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Distortion is fine; Mind Blast is not. People keep suggesting moving Distortion to Fast Casting and adding weird clauses and such but it's a well balanced skill outside a MB template.

Revert MB to it's last nerfed state and give it its extra second recharge back.

Rhamia Darigaz · Apr 23, 2009, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by ensoriki

Sarcasm does not result in winning an argument

not necessarily, of course, but satire can be an effective way to criticize something by exaggerating its flaws to make them glaringly and comically obvious.

i may not have explicitly said "the existence of cripple does not justify an overpowered speed boost" or "3 seconds of downtime does not make up for the increased duration of a massive speed boost", but i did exaggerate the flaws in your reasoning with my warrior analogy in hopes that it would be obvious enough for you to see the connection.

i know you said you're done arguing about dash and so am i tbh; i'm just defending satire as a legitimate medium of criticism.

Krill · Apr 23, 2009, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Mind Blast is ok, it's Aura of Restoration that is the problem. Mind Blast was restored to 2s recharge last September and didn't se hardly any play until Aura was buffed into a really good skill that has energy management (new), self healing (more) and a cover enchant (cheaper and enchant removal was just nerfed). The build working as well as it does is a confluence of Mind Blast being un-nerfed, Immolate / Aura being buffed and deep enchant removal being nerfed so don't just blame Mind Blast.

wtfisgoingon · Apr 23, 2009, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhamia Darigaz

yes omg dash should be 5 seconds for sins because i said so lol zomg xXxNarutoxXx XOXOXO omg i luv u naruto! naruto move fast like ninja wind so my sin should move fast like ninja wind also!!!!
also i think warriors would be more fun if i could keep primal rage up more often and i like moving fast so yeah lets make it last longer and have less recharge and 50% ims because i said so yeah random buffs yeeeeaaaaahhhhh!!!11!!??!!?!!1!

Stereotyping and quick assumptions are the ultimate forms of revealing to the people w/ IQ 107+ that you are simple minded and ignorant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

a 5 second dash? massively overpowered. yeah, let's have a 5 energy, no attribute stance, that gives you a whooping 50% speed boost; then boosts its duration so it's up 5/8th of the time?

i can't even believe anyone's dumb enough to even suggest this.

i'll repeat this again, and hopefully this time it will sink in: sins are fine in lower end arenas. that's where they belong. if you still can't score kills with one in those arenas, then play better.

This guy obviously hasnt played a Sin in high or low end PvP, or ANY sort of PvP experience with a Sin judging from the above poster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

if you want to talk about how it works out in the long term, here's the simplified version:

-50% IMS is equivalent to 25% IMS x2. in its current form, dash provides the same overall speed as a 6 second 25% IMS, at 8 second recharge
-if increased to 5 seconds duration, dash would provide the equivalent of a 25% IMS with 10 second duration, at 8 second recharge. in other words, it's equivalent to a permanent sprint/rush, but with even better recharge

of course, the above does not take into account the huge benefit of the huge burst of speed dash can provide. even in its current form, it allows a player to outrun just about everything in those three seconds. give more duration, and it would just be flatout broken. dash would be the end all be all of speed boosts. it will eclipse everything else so utterly that most other IMS would become irrelevant.

if you give this to sins, people STILL won't run them in gvg. all it will accomplish is making them even more powerful in lower end arenas, specifically AB. you might as well make assassins invincible then, because they can just out maneuver everything.

dash is fine the way it is. please drop this subject.

Nope, I wont drop the subject.
Dash is fine the way it is for NON-SINS.
Dash should be 4-5 seconds for Sins, they were meant to have mobility, yet their mobility capabilities are surpassed by Dervish + Warriors in the long run.

and what makes you think people wont run them in GvG after buffing dash?
or just spitting out your random thoughts?

iTzF3aR · Apr 24, 2009, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

Stereotyping and quick assumptions are the ultimate forms of revealing to the people w/ IQ 107+ that you are simple minded and ignorant.

This guy obviously hasnt played a Sin in high or low end PvP, or ANY sort of PvP experience with a Sin judging from the above poster.

Nope, I wont drop the subject.
Dash is fine the way it is for NON-SINS.
Dash should be 4-5 seconds for Sins, they were meant to have mobility, yet their mobility capabilities are surpassed by Dervish + Warriors in the long run.

and what makes you think people wont run them in GvG after buffing dash?
or just spitting out your random thoughts?

Please stop trying to continue going on with this.
I halfheartedly agree on what the people above posted about the Mind/Blast Distortion, but I would like to see the recharge time for it increased to like 10 seconds, maybe make duration 4 to 5 seconds.

ensoriki · Apr 24, 2009, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

Stereotyping and quick assumptions are the ultimate forms of revealing to the people w/ IQ 107+ that you are simple minded and ignorant.

This guy obviously hasnt played a Sin in high or low end PvP, or ANY sort of PvP experience with a Sin judging from the above poster.

Nope, I wont drop the subject.
Dash is fine the way it is for NON-SINS.
Dash should be 4-5 seconds for Sins, they were meant to have mobility, yet their mobility capabilities are surpassed by Dervish + Warriors in the long run.

and what makes you think people wont run them in GvG after buffing dash?
or just spitting out your random thoughts?

Looking back on the past.
It seems any sin utility worth using, will be used by someone else instead of an assassin.

I Jonas I · Apr 24, 2009, 01:42 AM // 01:42

The fact that Dash gives a higher average IMS with no attribute investment than natural stride gives at 11 wilderness survival is pretty gay.

Bobby2 · Apr 24, 2009, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas The Keen

The fact that Dash gives a higher average IMS with no attribute investment than natural stride gives at 11 wilderness survival is pretty gay.

Block stances are gay.

moriz · Apr 24, 2009, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

Stereotyping and quick assumptions are the ultimate forms of revealing to the people w/ IQ 107+ that you are simple minded and ignorant.

This guy obviously hasnt played a Sin in high or low end PvP, or ANY sort of PvP experience with a Sin judging from the above poster.

Nope, I wont drop the subject.
Dash is fine the way it is for NON-SINS.
Dash should be 4-5 seconds for Sins, they were meant to have mobility, yet their mobility capabilities are surpassed by Dervish + Warriors in the long run.

and what makes you think people wont run them in GvG after buffing dash?
or just spitting out your random thoughts?

i can play a sin far better than you can imagine. kindly put your supposed 107+ IQ to better use, and not make stupid guesses that epicfail. kthx.

Wish Swiftdeath · Apr 24, 2009, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

obviously hasnt played a Sin in high or low end PvP, or ANY sort of PvP experience with a Sin judging from the above poster.

Nope, I wont drop the subject.
Dash is fine the way it is for NON-SINS.
Dash should be 4-5 seconds for Sins, they were meant to have mobility, yet their mobility capabilities are surpassed by Dervish + Warriors in the long run.

and what makes you think people wont run them in GvG after buffing dash?
or just spitting out your random thoughts?

It's obvious you haven't played a sin outside of RA/AB. A splitting sin on it's own can't kill anyone that has blocking or blind (pretty much every split character).

Jeydra · Apr 24, 2009, 07:03 AM // 07:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

A fair argument, though I'm still concerned. Mostly in that maps are so important in 8v8 play, and certain maps make the e/me incredibly powerful against a balanced build. Any of those templates you mentioned are counters, but only counters. An e/me could easily run away from a degen or caster damage, and in most cases, win the battle 1v1 against them. Same with any physical class. You would need 2 characters to kill 1 e/me - a snare/healer (flagger) and a caster - a mirror of ice mesmer is probably the best option in this meta. And even then, the e/me could last long to get healed or get away.

Full collapsing or oversplitting are the only real options, though you need snares at stand or a full cage commitment from the eles to make any good of it. Another option is to stalemate them with a flagger and a dom mesmer, controlling flags with the stand team; a good option since the e/me have no reliable snare ability (but you'd need a dom mesmer).

Well that's the point right? The tools to take out E/Me Mind Blasters are already there. I've given some examples, I can give more, eg -

Dual Attunements Air spammer (I used this to take out more E/Me Mind Blasters than I can count in RA).
Illusion Mesmers with (say) Migraine.
Dom Mesmers with (say) VoR and Backfire.
Shattering Assault Assassins.
Blood Necro with (say) Life Transfer and Strip Enchantment.
Illusionary Weaponry Mesmer.

The counters are already there, it's just that they don't work in the current meta. After all, who'd use Life Transfer in GvG anyway ... but it takes out Mind Blasters without problems. Rather than change Mind Blasters to suit the meta, why not instead change the meta? The former option seems suspiciously like 'this is what we want, everything else that can beat this is overpowered' ...

Quote:

Backbreaker - Fix it to 3 seconds knocked down even for 12 hammer mastery and lessen the damage output on it. Why ? So far BB sins have starting to get more popular and even challenged Palm Strike sins it's place for what could be considered a better build/ team play. Sins are able to pull of an amazing spike with this (All Ha'ers you know what I mean ? with that order of the vampire.) If you do make it to 3 seconds you can STILL pull off the spike, but it takes a little bit more skill then just esc-> f1-> 1-> esc-> f2 then chain.

I very much disagree with this change. The original Backbreaker chain did a lot of damage, but it brought along its share of weaknesses - it took 10 adrenaline to charge, it was easy to prot (just see the Sin carry a Hammer and you know he's charged) and you can't split easily with it because of the 10 adrenaline cost. In fact I'll stick my head out and say I disagree with the original nerf to Backbreaker. If I understand right it was originally nerfed for HB, but then HB provides you with so many methods to survive: health shrines, Divine Intervention, Shielding Hands, Shield of Regen ...

Even though it's possible to execute the spike with a 3s KD it's hardly as reliable since server lag etc will kill the chain.

Quote:

Edit: I think the stronger ele builds can manage at least a while with out their atttunements, and in the case of dual attunements the difficulties of having both attunements renewed is a fair trade off for pretty much being able to spam spells indefinitely without it. It's an unavoidable disadvantage that you should prepare for. In fact the same thing is true in all cases of unintended enchantment removal. the clumsiness of running dual attunments is part of the reason why a lot of builds forsake it entirely for Glyph of Lesser Energy.

I agree that Dual Attunements needs deep enchant strips to keep it balanced (if the counters aren't in the enemy team, I think the Dual Attunements bar I run in RA is really quite overpowered), but there're lots of Elementalist bars that need their Attunement to stay up. If you want to deal damage as an Elementalist it's even more a priority to protect your attunement. Consider Fire Magic. There're quite a few damage spells in Fire: Immolate, Liquid Flame, Fireball, Meteor, Incendiary Bonds, Rodgort's Invocation, Searing Flames, Flame Burst / Inferno, etc. Almost all the effective spells are 10e, and you can't support repeated use of 10e spells without Fire Attunement. Some options go to 15e, which requires the Attunement even more. Rodgort's Invocation is even worse. To cast without the Attunement really the only option are 5e spells, with GoLE occasionally supporting more expensive spells. What effective 5e spells are there, Flare? Even with 20 Fire Magic it's not very impressive. Lightning Strike? Not very spammable. Ice Spear? Half range.

Without the Attunement you really need GoLE and Glowing Gaze / Glowing Ice / etc, which really isn't enough to support spamming (try playing standard Shatterstone without Water Attunement). There are a lot of Elementalist builds that simply don't work if the Attunement is down - can you imagine playing Searing Flames without Fire Attunement? To pressure out a Monk you need to use Rodgort's Invocation on recharge, and the only way you can manage that is Elemental Attunement ... or Mind Blast.

Taken together I think Elementalist Attunements need some protection from removal. Removing it should of course still be a good thing to do, but right now it incapacitates the Elementalist too hard and too long. Attunements have 45s recharge, and if it gets removed immediately after you put it up you're down for at least 20 seconds, more than enough time for the enemy Monk to regen energy while you look on passively.

I think we ANet buffs Attunements to make them less vulnerable to removal, we'd see a lot more Elementalist builds around, and so a good idea.

valence · Apr 24, 2009, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

Mind Blast is ok, it's Aura of Restoration that is the problem. Mind Blast was restored to 2s recharge last September and didn't se hardly any play until Aura was buffed into a really good skill that has energy management (new), self healing (more) and a cover enchant (cheaper and enchant removal was just nerfed). The build working as well as it does is a confluence of Mind Blast being un-nerfed, Immolate / Aura being buffed and deep enchant removal being nerfed so don't just blame Mind Blast.

This isnt entirely true, when mind blast was reverted it was a bar that was hidden in the dark. It really just missed 1 skill compression to be really good again (the same amount of nrg was already available with glyph of ele power while having a massive 17fire), it just missed 1 skillslot for a selfheal and aura did that(while having the function glyph of ele power did, giving energy).

Just hit the recharge of distortion, it should balance the bar while keeping it available for mesmers.

Jeydra, the problem is not the mind blast template in terms of power. It's just you can't hit them, making them invurnerable to a single thing in the game. Same reason why i dislike faul feast, pnh, draw conditions, mantra, it makes you more or less immune without any real answers to it (you cant shut it down). No answers to skills turns the game into a geussing game.

While the template is a bit in a grey area in terms of strength a slight hit to distortion would suffice (you cant cast when distortion is down and a ranger is back unless you wanna eat interrupts).

Also i dont see a problem with attunements hard to remove, the entire damn class was designed to have 1 up anyway. Its just a f*cking shitty glyph of lesser energy that f*cked shit over for the class.

wtfisgoingon · Apr 25, 2009, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

It's obvious you haven't played a sin outside of RA/AB. A splitting sin on it's own can't kill anyone that has blocking or blind (pretty much every split character).

Where in the post did I say a Sin could kill anything with blind/block on him?
If you dont have anything to contribute to the thread, dont talk. Otherwise make sense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by moriz

i can play a sin far better than you can imagine. kindly put your supposed 107+ IQ to better use, and not make stupid guesses that epicfail. kthx.

Yes, I am very sure you can, in Raptor farming that is...
Weren't you that Sin in the 3000's guild trying to run perma shadow form in GvG?

moriz · Apr 25, 2009, 03:44 AM // 03:44

nope. i was that sin who popped you repeatedly in AB, despite the fact you were running three blocks and a heal, and i didn't have antiblock to boot. oh, and you had two monks healing you.

see, i can make myself sound superior without anything back it up also. kindly keep your stupidity to yourself.

Wish Swiftdeath · Apr 25, 2009, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by wtfisgoingon

Where in the post did I say a Sin could kill anything with blind/block on him?
If you dont have anything to contribute to the thread, dont talk. Otherwise make sense.

Learn to read, I said that nearly every split has some form of blocking/blind making your sin useless...

Greedy Gus · Apr 25, 2009, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Mitch won on skill balance.

My only request is that they sit a human in front of a computer for 5 seconds and look at the daily AT schedule for US EST primetime, and come up with an alternative.