Curse

Bobby2 · Jun 10, 2009, 03:41 PM // 15:41

After playing Evis-Exe it's hard to consider Dismember a proper spike skill, so throwing BB out for Twist was no biggie - it even plays into Dismember's upside of being spammable and so puts out more pressure. Might just be my imagination though, I'm no mathematician.

Rake's lack of +damage puts me off...

Lux Aeterna · Jun 10, 2009, 06:12 PM // 18:12

^ No other axe builds can really compare to the evisc spike, but they often have other big advantages and end up doing more damage in the long run, the only downside being that you can't take off 300hp in a second. Usually I find eviscerate to be disappointing, though, you only really see big numbers on crits and if your damage rolls low the spike can be very small.

Rake's lack of +damage is offset by the damage increase due to the snare. Even with PR on you'll find that people can still kite much your damage, but with a snare you stay on them the whole time. Plus it still hits for 70 easily, so the + damage isn't really a huge loss.

I might try a build with dismember/exec, then save skills up to spike like with eviscerate.

The current GvG meta seems to be using executioner's strike instead of body blow, I've yet to figure out why.

Body blow on PR builds still just seems fail to me, this comes from playing PR builds extensively (but not in gvg).

Btw somebody give me a gvg guild invite because I want to kick ass.

Snow Bunny · Jun 10, 2009, 06:26 PM // 18:26

How do people kite out a 25% IMS?

I thought that was the point of the damn thing?

If you can't run train on a monk under 25% IMS your problem is your play, not your IMS.

It's not like with dismember you just get DW and no damage - you don't get the huge +30 from Evis, but you still get the ~30-40 autoattack damage + DW, which combined with a lot of fire damage and hexes, should be sufficient.

If you're not playing PR in GvG then you don't understand why BB is not a "fail" skill. In this pressure-oriented meta, the ability to get in additional damage as often as you can is fairly crucial, with the 7a vs. 8a difference adding up over the match.

But yeah, whirling axe murders balanced stance, so that's why it's good. The midline has enough damage/hexes to wreck healing, so you don't need a huge spikey elite to drive your damage through.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 10, 2009, 06:32 PM // 18:32

You'd have to be on crack if you aren't running BB on a pr bar with all these para's floating around, free deep wound, 1 less adren at the cost of -2 dmg less.

Thamior Shamus · Jun 10, 2009, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Or balanced stance.

but since stance monks expect that the other team would have a Whirling shock axe most of them dont bring balanced stance. so wouldnt it be better to not bring Whirling axe if its only used to counter balance stance?

I Angra I · Jun 11, 2009, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thamior Shamus

but since stance monks expect that the other team would have a Whirling shock axe most of them dont bring balanced stance. so wouldnt it be better to not bring Whirling axe if its only used to counter balance stance?

People don't intentionally leave out balanced stance because there are whirling axe warriors, that's just dumb. Balanced stance is amazingly effective and invaluable on a monk bar no matter if there's a whirling axe on the other team or not.

Also wtf @ axe rake on a PR war? That's so bad, lol. Why would you need a snare on a bar that already makes you move 25% faster 100% of the time, and has both shock and bulls? It's like a cripshot ranger bringing pin down, it's just pointless. Bring more damage so you can actually accomplish something rather than keeping someone snared all game but never killing them.

Sun Fired Blank · Jun 11, 2009, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Question: when playing non-eviscerate builds, do you use attacks when they're ready, or do you save them and use dismember + executioner's strike sequentially ?

I wouldn't take Executioner's Strike on a bar with Dismember because it serves as the choke for your adrenal bursts. Body Blow charges much faster, not only because it's marked visually as a 7A skill, but because all 7A skills have screwy point values. From a technical standpoint, Body Blow is marked as 6.4 adrenal strikes (160 points); much of the time, it's effectively six adrenaline as damage you take makes up the .4 strike difference. With Executioner's Strike, you're usually required to muster up the full 8 adrenal strikes (200 points), which is a significant difference. If you've ever played Dev Hammer versus Magehunter's Smash / Earth Shaker and wondered why Dev seems to charge so much faster even though there's only a visual one strike difference, that's why; same principle applies here.

Obviously the correct answer to your question is: do what gets you kills. But on bars with skills that have similar adrenal point values (PR: 6.4 / 4.8 / 6, Whirling: 4.8 / 4.8 / 4.8, Evisc: 6.4 or 8 / 8 / 6), the question of whether or not to prematurely use a skill outside of a chain won't be as much of an issue. Using your skills on recharge will correspond with your adrenal bursts, and adrenal bursts have greater threat potential then undirected damage, so it all works out nicely in the end.

Quote:

Why would you need a snare on a bar that already makes you move 25% faster 100% of the time, and has both shock and bulls?

Axe Rake is theoretically interesting as a soft snare in any situation where it could generate its full effect, even with Shock and Bull's Strike on the bar. In practice, no such situation exists, mostly because you'll always be paired with your ranger. Taking Axe Rake also has to be considered as an opportunity cost, since it's going to push a bunch of good skills off the bar: D-Chop, Agonizing Chop, Body Blow, etc.

Back then · Jun 11, 2009, 05:56 PM // 17:56

How do people meet the cracked armor conidtion to get the deepwound out of BB, or do they just use it as a replacement for EA and still bring dismember?

Snow Bunny · Jun 11, 2009, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back then

How do people meet the cracked armor conidtion to get the deepwound out of BB

Paragons and their aggressive refrain.

adafdfadfasdfad

I Angra I · Jun 11, 2009, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

Axe Rake is theoretically interesting as a soft snare in any situation where it could generate its full effect, even with Shock and Bull's Strike on the bar. In practice, no such situation exists, mostly because you'll always be paired with your ranger. Taking Axe Rake also has to be considered as an opportunity cost, since it's going to push a bunch of good skills off the bar: D-Chop, Agonizing Chop, Body Blow, etc.

Yeah, I mean I'd take axe rake if I had like 10 or 11 skill slots or something.. but there's way more effective/important stuff to bring on a PR bar that will almost always be better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back then

How do people meet the cracked armor conidtion to get the deepwound out of BB, or do they just use it as a replacement for EA and still bring dismember?

Paragons with aggressive, or if you randomly happen to have shell shock or something in your build. And by EA I assume you mean Executioners, which yeah, they replace that and have both dismember and bodyblow.

Lux Aeterna · Jun 11, 2009, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

Yeah, I mean I'd take axe rake if I had like 10 or 11 skill slots or something.. but there's way more effective/important stuff to bring on a PR bar that will almost always be better.

Such as?

PR bars usually have quite a bit of open space, as I said axe rake is a replacement for the "big damage" attack.

I've always been unsatisfied with body blow, and after trying axe rake for a while it seems to generate more heavy damage.

The gvg meta seems to be using executioner's strike now, though.

Phe Belladona · Jun 12, 2009, 01:19 AM // 01:19

lux are you telling us about RA meta when you say axe rake is a good PR bar choice?

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 12, 2009, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phe Belladona

lux are you telling us about RA meta when you say axe rake is a good PR bar choice?

I thought that was apparent by now

Trinity Fire Angel · Jun 12, 2009, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

I kinda like Whirling Axe, in the same way that I like Axe Twist - it doesn't make me wait until 7/8 adren to gogogogogo

Prediction

But seriously you have Bull's and Shock, whaddya need Axe Rake for

a good monk will never let you get ya bulls off on them (there's a double meaning in that). its so easy to fake out a bulls from an average warrior. its called run, stop, run, stop. usually the bulls will hit you when you stop cause they are expecting to catch you with their IMS they just chase you with Bulls cued up. shock is the bomb, but a good monk can fake that out with balanced stance before they start their guardian chain... that is the only reason why whirling axe pwnz noobs.

then again, a good shield bash always works wonders.

Bobby2 · Jun 12, 2009, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel

a good monk will never let you get ya bulls off on them (there's a double meaning in that). its so easy to fake out a bulls from an average warrior. its called run, stop, run, stop. usually the bulls will hit you when you stop cause they are expecting to catch you with their IMS they just chase you with Bulls cued up. shock is the bomb, but a good monk can fake that out with balanced stance before they start their guardian chain... that is the only reason why whirling axe pwnz noobs.

Bolded for emphasis. Guilty as charged, though it's getting better.

If a monk plays cat-and-mouse like this, I find it's usually enough to auto-attack them for a while, Rushing casually... after a while the damage adds up, and nervousness sets in

Motoko · Jun 12, 2009, 08:35 AM // 08:35

A readable and typical warrior will run up to a monk and bulls on contact.

A monk that is a step ahead of the warrior will know this and stop moving on contact. (maybe sooner "blah blah servers")

A warrior that knows the monk thinks this will take this time to auto attack and sidestep in front of where the monk is going, or will just plain shock it.

Anyhow, Axe Rake seems overkill with the standard warrior bars (assuming you know how to manuever and use your skills widely). As if the rampant mel shot, crip shot, and freezing gusts aren't enough snares already?

*lemming* · Jun 12, 2009, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

A warrior that knows the monk thinks this will take this time to auto attack and sidestep in front of where the monk is going, or will just plain shock it.

That's where European warriors went wrong in their train of thought.

Vanquisher · Jun 12, 2009, 11:28 AM // 11:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Motoko

A warrior that knows the monk thinks this will take this time to auto attack and sidestep in front of where the monk is going, or will just plain shock it.

A Monk that figures this will just continue to run.

Am I doing it right?

Barbie goes guru · Jun 12, 2009, 12:49 PM // 12:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

A Monk that figures this will just continue to run.

Am I doing it right?

A good warrior will know a good monk will expect him to shock, and so he'll cue bulls to hit him when he doesn't stop to dodge bulls.

This means that cueing bulls is obviously the best thing you can do.

Obvious really.

Motoko · Jun 12, 2009, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

A Monk that figures this will just continue to run.

Am I doing it right?

I think I forgot that part because most monks never get that far in the cause and effect chain with me...

A readable and typical warrior will run up to a monk and bulls on contact.

A monk that is a step ahead of the warrior will know this and stop moving on contact. (maybe sooner "blah blah servers")

A warrior that knows the monk thinks this will take this time to auto attack and sidestep in front of where the monk is going, or will just plain shock it.

A monk that knows this will keep running to retreat as far as possible.

A warrior that knows this will bulls on contact.

I think its a circle effect.

I like to call it: Guild Wars!