Curse

Thamior Shamus · Jun 11, 2009, 02:09 AM // 02:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Playing a paragon takes skill. It's not micro skill, but rather strategy on where to place damage. Many times you'll come across incidents where, if a paragon had placed a couple spear attacks in one place, someone on the other team would have died.

you can replace 'paragon' with any midline position.

lutz · Jun 11, 2009, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

Like what, Lutz?

Like your comprehensive treatise on how players in roles have to click skills, fulfill their roles well, and support their team in order to be good at their roles in order to score on a scale from 1 to 6? With you not even defining 6?

If you want to lay out some kind of argument such as: active midline templates are good for the game, paragons demand (or should demand) a skillset making them one of those active midline templates, paragons aren't present enough or correctly in the meta and should therefore be changed... be my guest. That's totally productive and on topic.

Saying you think Paragons are a skillful class because you have to push your buttons to put damage somewhere and score kills is a really dumb argument.

Metas shouldn't be forced upon a particular community. Paragons are active in the current meta - maybe you just never play GvG enough to notice? The last month was a rotation of primarily split maps, which still saw some builds including paragons. In a rotation of a mix of split and 8v8 maps, we're sure to see paragons back in the meta.

I don't even know what you have to argue here - almost every single one of your facts are wrong.

Putting your damage in the right places, a byproduct of a more favorable attribute awareness, is incredibly important, and very difficult to do consistently and correctly. It requires synergy amongst the team.

It isn't like TA where each person camps their own target and spreads pressure. GvG is significantly more difficult - instead of 4 people involved, you have 8 people. And there are actually split tactics involved! If you don't know much about a format, please refrain from responding. Thanks.

scruffy · Jun 11, 2009, 04:54 AM // 04:54

if youre playing a pressure build that uses paragons your warriors are most likely calling spikes every few seconds so your job of putting damage where it needs to be is largely being done by your warriors

if you're defensive spiking you're most likely just training a soft target in between spikes

I Angra I · Jun 11, 2009, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

if youre playing a pressure build that uses paragons your warriors are most likely calling spikes every few seconds so your job of putting damage where it needs to be is largely being done by your warriors

if you're defensive spiking you're most likely just training a soft target in between spikes

If you're playing paragon in a pressure build and all you do is press skills on the targets that your warrior calls, you're doing it wrong and in fact are not going to be pressuring much at all.

*lemming* · Jun 11, 2009, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Just because people can play paragon well doesn't make it skillful.

Demigod Heracles · Jun 12, 2009, 03:23 AM // 03:23

I'm embarassed to say that I know a fair bit about both spiking and playing many different types of paragons.

Beyond the expected things (mash tpiy, anthem of <x>, keep up mendings or what have you) there's a few things that can make you a marginally better paragon in whatever build you're running (some sort of build that spikes frequently to exhaust monk energy most likely)

1. follow warrior damage - spiking when you see your warriors using their skills, not just on the countdown to make your damage better

2. spearing things in between spikes either on your own or with your warrior to maybe draw a bigger prot or what have you (doesn't usually work but it does sometimes)

3. using your utiliy skills (/n, /me, /mo) properly - timing your encahnt strip or rigor right, hitting interrupts on good targets, cleaning important targets.

4. uhh thats about it, none of those are particularly complicated. pretty much what lemming said, just because some people can play it better doesn't make it a hard template to play.

scruffy · Jun 12, 2009, 05:25 AM // 05:25

What roles in this game take fabled 'skill'? I've always thought the only skill that good players had was the ability to learn how to play the game most efficiently no matter what role they are on. The actual playing of the role would just be the execution of what they have already memorized. Do some roles take more memorization than others thus being more 'skillful'? I've heard people talk about how no players -warriors in particular- really stand out from the crowd anymore, all of the people who are less skilled have finally caught up with memorizing how the game works.

Now if that is true, the only way for people to show how truly skilled they are would be for massive shifts in the way the game is played to occur, such as new skills and new maps.

Motoko · Jun 12, 2009, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

What roles in this game take fabled 'skill'? I've always thought the only skill that good players had was the ability to learn how to play the game most efficiently no matter what role they are on. The actual playing of the role would just be the execution of what they have already memorized. Do some roles take more memorization than others thus being more 'skillful'? I've heard people talk about how no players -warriors in particular- really stand out from the crowd anymore, all of the people who are less skilled have finally caught up with memorizing how the game works.

Now if that is true, the only way for people to show how truly skilled they are would be for massive shifts in the way the game is played to occur, such as new skills and new maps.

Just because new skills come out and new maps come out, doesn't mean truly skilled players come out. All that comes out are players that adjusted the quickest. You see this happen in almost every mAT. It is not the most skilled guild who won, it is the guild who adjusted and abused the most broken build in the minimal amount of time. And don't try to convince me that this is an accurate representation of skill.

Warriors don't usually stand out anymore because dumbasses are too busy calling everyone bad and being pessimistic. True value is never understood in its own time. If you are successful, people will hate you. With so much hate, how can you be idolized? People are so damn stubborn about being the best that everything is just politics and trying to tear down the everyone else.

People would be alot better off in this game by being generous and communicative rather than basing their entire gaming experience constricted by paranoid fear of hate with another player that doesn't even exist.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 12, 2009, 07:55 AM // 07:55

Playing balanced takes skill! Split is for noobs!

Ex Death · Jun 12, 2009, 08:26 PM // 20:26

The reason no one stands out anymore is that general game knowledge has reached a stagnant state where everyone has been spoon-fed all the information they need to be good at the game (or at least not bad at the game). This is the reason why new players can quite easily learn to be decent at the game in a short matter of time when they're fed the correct information. Compare this to the past, and you'll see that those who stood out were those who made an attempt to innovate. It's not so much the fact that this isn't possible anymore but in the past it was simply a lot more feasible if you tried hard enough. Even less than 2 years ago, most of the top players were not playing at maximum effectiveness or running maximally optimised builds.

Reverend Dr · Jun 12, 2009, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Shouts/chants are very similar to hexes; start adding more and they become more powerful. On their own most shouts/chants do very little, but stacked on their results are much stronger. This is especially the case with finale/refrains.

Unlike hexes, shouts/chants cannot be removed; shouts themselves cannot even be interrupted. This is very poor design. While bringing a set of removal counters for shouts[should they exist] would not be desirable, more standard forms of shutdown (KD's, Interrupts) are not effective.

Further compounding the issue is the paragon's loss of effectiveness in split play, reducing the variety of play in which it can effectively engage. The power needs to be watched closely as if 1-2 paragons becomes powerful then 3-4 paragon gimmicks(high-variance, or some other preferred terminology) are going to be far more powerful than they should be.

Ultimately we are left with a class that is forever going to be underpowered or should it stop being underpowered is going to create a horrible mess of issues (has they have in the past).

kedde · Jun 13, 2009, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Compare it to a ranger that could be in its place?
Paragon is a lot easier.
Another warrior?
Easier.
A mesmer?
Easier, even if you have an interrupt.
A defensive midline?
There, you might see something requiring equal skill depending on what kind of midline you have.

See smite bitches, signet bots etc. for the same level, whereas snares and blinds at least have to be used selectively.

Playing a paragon is easy by all means.
Don't come and say switching targets appropriatly is difficult or how it's difficult how to position yourself correctly or how using one interrupt is difficult, that's laughable.

Basic reflexes, eyes, two hands and ears are what playing a paragon requires.

THIS EXCLUDES A BRAIN.

Ensign · Jun 13, 2009, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gladiator Motoko

Warriors don't usually stand out anymore because dumbasses are too busy calling everyone bad and being pessimistic.

Serious question: how many teams have won on the backs of Warrior play that stood out? I can only think of a handful of Warriors who have stood out for their great micro, and they didn't win all that much.

The Warriors that have won, at least when I was a lot more plugged into the community, are the ones who did the best jobs coordinating with / organizing their teams. Or: the Polly skillset wins, not the Smgz.

Motoko · Jun 13, 2009, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Serious question: how many teams have won on the backs of Warrior play that stood out? I can only think of a handful of Warriors who have stood out for their great micro, and they didn't win all that much.

The Warriors that have won, at least when I was a lot more plugged into the community, are the ones who did the best jobs coordinating with / organizing their teams. Or: the Polly skillset wins, not the Smgz.

This is true, and will always be true.

The difference now in the community is the choice of players to recognize that skill and vindicate it. This is what I was pointing out, the community has changed to be very negative and not appreciate that sort of thing. The good are the bad, the bad are still the bad but try to pretend to be good.

Then again there really isn't too big of a distinguishment in the metagame where warriors do carry teams. It is either the 8v8 effort where either everyone does their stuff and the opponent dies, or the split effort that requires tons more communication on vent and perhaps a little bit more individual skill, which maybe can lead to certain people carrying things depending on the microbility and tactics.

Either way, most people probably don't get the other half of the story unless they are on the vent of that team.

I Angra I · Jun 13, 2009, 08:54 PM // 20:54

warriors only exist in builds currently to provide deepwound and knockdowns to support all of the midline's damage.. which is incredibly unfortunate

on topic of the thread, paragons seem fairly balanced in comparison to the rest of the meta at the moment. not saying the meta is balanced, or paragons are balanced, but they are a pretty powerful template to run in a build, but not so much that they auto-win anything or that people need to run paragons to win; which is how they should be aimed to stay at in terms of power level compared to rest of the meta, when everything else is finally balanced/fixed.

lutz · Jun 13, 2009, 10:04 PM // 22:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by kedde

Compare it to a ranger that could be in its place?
Paragon is a lot easier.
Another warrior?
Easier.
A mesmer?
Easier, even if you have an interrupt.
A defensive midline?
There, you might see something requiring equal skill depending on what kind of midline you have.

See smite bitches, signet bots etc. for the same level, whereas snares and blinds at least have to be used selectively.

Playing a paragon is easy by all means.
Don't come and say switching targets appropriatly is difficult or how it's difficult how to position yourself correctly or how using one interrupt is difficult, that's laughable.

Basic reflexes, eyes, two hands and ears are what playing a paragon requires.

THIS EXCLUDES A BRAIN.

Playing a Paragon is similar to playing a Warrior, except Paragons have a little easier micro. Your primary job is to do damage, and you have a little bit of utility on your bar.

There's really nothing wrong with a character with easy micro. I don't understand what the problem with that is. Guild Wars is primarily a macro game. If you haven't understood that by now, then you're a hopeless cause.

If you're playing Paragon by just being microed around by someone else, maybe it's because you're a bad player, and not because the role is simply mindless.

Bobby2 · Jun 14, 2009, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Playing a Paragon is similar to playing a Warrior

Dude, what the hell?

God_Hand · Jun 14, 2009, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Dude, what the hell?

My thoughts exactly. Playing a Paragon is nowhere even CLOSE to playing a Warrior. Only similarity really is 80 armor and adrenaline. Other than that, they really do the things that the other doesn't.

Warrior = Melee
Paragon = Ranged
Warrior = Spike
Paragon = Spear Pressure
Warrior = Cripple, Deep Wound & Bleeding
Paragon = Daze, Bleeding & Burning
Warrior = All around support with KD's and linebacking
Paragon = Niche support with shouts & chants designed to work under very specific conditions

& on & on & on...

But hey, what the hell do I know?

I Angra I · Jun 14, 2009, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

My thoughts exactly. Playing a Paragon is nowhere even CLOSE to playing a Warrior. Only similarity really is 80 armor and adrenaline. Other than that, they really do the things that the other doesn't.

Warrior = Melee
Paragon = Ranged
Warrior = Spike
Paragon = Spear Pressure
Warrior = Cripple, Deep Wound & Bleeding
Paragon = Daze, Bleeding & Burning
Warrior = All around support with KD's and linebacking
Paragon = Niche support with shouts & chants designed to work under very specific conditions

& on & on & on...

But hey, what the hell do I know?

A lot of those points are a bit weird, like warrior = spike and paragon = pressure, or the conditions that both apparently apply (most conditions they have are similar conditions).

While playing a paragon doesn't usually take as much skill as a warrior, it still takes the same mindset and know-how in order to create dps/pressure on a paragon as it does on a warrior.

*lemming* · Jun 14, 2009, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

While playing a paragon doesn't usually take as much skill as a warrior, it still takes the same mindset and know-how in order to create dps/pressure on a paragon as it does on a warrior.

Being of the wrong mindset on paragon probably won't lose you anywhere near as many matches as it would on warrior.