Curse

Xyon the Greatest · Jun 09, 2009, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by God_Hand

This is why you have monks.

If you have ever played any organize team vs another organized team you would know just having a WoH healer spamming heals on you isnt good, with 60 armor you take damage way too much for a healer to heal you up.

Quote:

skill vs spell usage doesnt do much

This is where your wrong.

scruffy · Jun 10, 2009, 04:41 AM // 04:41

i wouldnt say its exactly like other damage support characters since maintaining shouts is pretty easy to get the hang of compared to organizing shutdown and defense, granted you're a more consistent damage source and it keeps you busy but I think even with that your warriors are doing most of the work for you.

its a step higher than hex necro though

Xsiriss · Jun 10, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Oh dear...nerf happy much?

Seriously, the way forward is to BUFF things with small nerfs to existing powerful builds (most of which have come about...) this way there are more options rather than the 'last meta standing' mentality, as more often than not pve suffers indirectly because of it which is where the majority of players are whether you care to admit it or not.

Things like LC make offense much more desirable, before it a WoH stancer back a few updates could easily withstand pressure from 3 people which was just silly. More good elites->last good ones standing.

Back then · Jun 10, 2009, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Proposed change to Weaken Knees:

For 5...8...10 seconds, target foe suffers 1...3...4 health degeneration and takes 5...25...30 damage whenever he is knocked down.

Makes it less of a "set and forget" skill and gives it a more tactical use, and also makes it more in-line with its original functionality. Might be powerful in spikes which idk if that is a good thing or not.

Snow Bunny · Jun 11, 2009, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Strange question - why run needling shot? It's not +23 damage, it's just 23 damage. You can auto-recharge if they're already down to 50%, but if you're looking for a spikey skill there's better out there.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Jun 11, 2009, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

Oh dear...nerf happy much?

Seriously, the way forward is to BUFF things with small nerfs to existing powerful builds (most of which have come about...) this way there are more options rather than the 'last meta standing' mentality, as more often than not pve suffers indirectly because of it which is where the majority of players are whether you care to admit it or not.

Things like LC make offense much more desirable, before it a WoH stancer back a few updates could easily withstand pressure from 3 people which was just silly. More good elites->last good ones standing.

Yeah, buffing things is how we got stuck with abominations like LC, PnH, Warrior's Endurance, Primal Rage, etc.

It really seems to be the way forward.

Burton2000 · Jun 11, 2009, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Strange question - why run needling shot? It's not +23 damage, it's just 23 damage. You can auto-recharge if they're already down to 50%, but if you're looking for a spikey skill there's better out there.

Because just like hunters shot before it you can spread poison faster with its 1 seconda activation. You don't need damage as you are a ranger who pressures through its poison.

Animate · Jun 11, 2009, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

mantra of resolve needs to die with mantra of conc and glyph of conc. then ofc, pious conc needs a higher recharge too and possibly higher energy cost/lesser duration.

On a side note, I find it pretty funny and a tad sad how, yet again, the build "migration" from TA to s bigger scale format (obviously gvg) has happened. Welcome to gvg, hexes and eles!
Now I'm just waiting for the newest triple hexer build setup with necros (of course, lc and weaken knees) using pets and barbs along with soulbarbs and a VoR mes to complete the hex spam to move over to gvg too. I mean, warriors are SO yesterday.

Yes they are. Innovation rocks.
You always argue in favor of balanced. U r so boringly predictable with ur bias. Stop representing what you play all the time as the only good thing and think about the game as a whole with many players with different tastes.
"needs to die blabla" + "balance blabla" = "contradiction"
Silly, it is not balance what you want. It is monotony.
Think about it for a while.
And then rephrase: "Needs to die" -> "Needs to be adjusted = Needs to be balanced"
Listen to Vanquisher for instance.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 11, 2009, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Animate

Yes they are. Innovation rocks.
You always argue in favor of balanced. U r so boringly predictable with ur bias. Stop representing what you play all the time as the only good thing and think about the game as a whole with many players with different tastes.
"needs to die blabla" + "balance blabla" = "contradiction"
Silly, it is not balance what you want. It is monotony.
Think about it for a while.
And then rephrase: "Needs to die" -> "Needs to be adjusted = Needs to be balanced"
Listen to Vanquisher for instance.

Except everyone has their own view on what they deem "desirable". Hence Urania's phrase "needs to die".

The build Urania mentions doesn't fit into my view as being healthy forms of play within GW. The concept of the build has been done many times over in the past, abet with even weaker Elite hexes, indeed surprised it hasn't resurfaced yet either.

some-_1 · Jun 11, 2009, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Only read the first few posts but I agree that RoJ and VoR needs to be nerfed (hopefully a PvP/PvE split) and that Hexes are way to strong and Hex Removal is way too weak... what I think/hope will be nerfed for PvP:

RoJ, VoR, Mindblast or Distortion (maybe even both?) and RTL (although I doubt this one) to name a few...

Lux Aeterna · Jun 11, 2009, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by god_hand

paragons totally need a buff right now. Namely: Make their wings cooler-looking.

this. Very much this.

Jeydra · Jun 12, 2009, 10:59 AM // 10:59

I don't get game balance anymore ...

First we have Warriors saying E/Me Mind Blasters are overpowered (see other thread in this forum).
Then we have E/Me Mind Blasters saying WK Necros are overpowered (Lemming on alliance chat after PZZZ rolled vR with 2x WK Sword Wars).
Then we have WK Necros saying Shielding Hands and Shield of Absorption Monks are overpowered (poof goes WK's damage).
Then we have Shielding Hands and Shield of Absorption Monks saying VoR Mesmers are overpowered (can't cast can't heal can't even hit stance).
Then we have VoR Mesmers saying Whirling Axe Warriors are overpowered (poof goes Mantra of Resolve = lol DShot).
Then we have Whirling Axe Warriors saying Balanced Stance is overpowered (see Lemming's signature on QQ).
And so on and so forth ...

Everyone thinks everyone else is overpowered, is it safe to conclude that everything is overpowered and every build should be nerfed?

Vanquisher · Jun 12, 2009, 11:23 AM // 11:23

There is a huge difference between overpowered and annoyance. Resolve is an annoyance that is forced into the game due to the increase usage of interrupts. Balanced Stance is an annoyance due to the strength of knockdowns and people learning to quarter-knock. That's all meta adjustment. They've come because there's no way to get around the tools that they stop other than hard counters. Warriors have increased in power thanks largely to a decrease in the efficiency of off-Monk hate they may have recieved (conditions/Foul Feast, Aegis, Ward Melee, etc.) as have Rangers, and with the same regard Paragons.

Weaken Knees suffers from similar problems to all hexes. The only reason worth keeping it in the game currently is that it forces 8/8, and the tie breaker mechanic is so screwed (as is splitting in general). Splittings power has increased thanks to the implementation of skills like Natural Stride/Mend Touch, which stopped blind being a viable source of base defence and took the game towards requiring Monks and Ritualists to defend instead, which when camped in Lord rooms is far worse in terms of play. Likewise the tie breaker means outer NPC's are useless so there is no real point in trying to keep them alive making Lord camping even better. The game then progressed, with the help of buffs, to things like MB that can power through Rits and has the advantage over Physicals in terms of hate and not really having a problem clearing Lord and dispatching a Lord pretty quickly. Distortion's making people run Cunning and/or Rigor, and WK has also come in to force 8/8.

Basically there's a lot of overpowered stuff that's been in since NF and resulting buffs, as well as some left over from Factions (though most has been neutered aside from buffs since). Stuff like Resolve isn't overpowered, it's a direct counter that's required. Balanced Stance's problem is the duration vs. the recharge (possibly) and the ease of cross speccing, but I'd say the unspecced Sprint is worse. Disciplined Stance/Defensive Stances problems are their recharge, but if you hit those without hitting physicals it's a pretty bad call.

Whirling Axe isn't really a problem either. And I don't know any that say Balanced Stance is overpowered, just an annoyance.

But hey, when you nerf off-Monk defence so much that people are forced to run stances etc. to stay alive and adrenal gain is much quicker anyway thanks to things like Enraging Charge, no Aegis, and no Ward Melee, what was really expected?

Krill · Jun 12, 2009, 02:47 PM // 14:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Resolve is an annoyance that is forced into the game due to the increase usage of interrupts.

Really? There have been plenty of metas in the past with dual axe warriors with d-chop, dual rangers or a ranger and a dom mes. In fact turret rangers with RTW and ED or flail were far more dangerous with interrupts than a standard pressure rangers. Anyway, this isn't new. The only thing that has changed is VoR with hum sig is now meta and being that the build is primarily hex based with fairly long recharging skills and a long casting signet, resolve makes it ez mode with virtually no downside other than using a skill slot.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 12, 2009, 03:08 PM // 15:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

Really? There have been plenty of metas in the past with dual axe warriors with d-chop, dual rangers or a ranger and a dom mes. In fact turret rangers with RTW and ED or flail were far more dangerous with interrupts than a standard pressure rangers. Anyway, this isn't new. The only thing that has changed is VoR with hum sig is now meta and being that the build is primarily hex based with fairly long recharging skills and a long casting signet, resolve makes it ez mode with virtually no downside other than using a skill slot.

Pretty much, in todays overall metas and build choices there is actually less interrupts, and that's a direct correlation in there being nothing besides monks and maybe a mesmer to interrupt at the stand. There is lack of things to interrupt/ or a priority to interrupt, absolutely no more passive defense. Interrupts just seem more powerful because of the lack of things needed to interrupt.

Instead of creating windows for your frontline to kill things, the windows are already opened, so anything interrupt based can go straight on monks or the odd ball mesmer. That to me is power creep in itself caused by a neutering to anything defensive because the masses have moaned a thousand times over about it.

Greedy Gus · Jun 12, 2009, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Well interrupt prevalence/focus drives down acceptable cast-times for all skills, but once they've been driven down then you don't see that focus as strongly anymore. It's a classic case where the threat is as strong as the execution, where just the threat causes skills to be unplayable. It's always a key skill to be able to see deeper beyond the obvious when looking at balance, looking at the general roots instead of x vs. y single skill balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I don't get game balance anymore ...

The easy answer is that you never did, but to give a response to your joke post: If you ever find yourself identifying people as some specific role they're playing (paragons are complaining about x, necros are complaining about y) then you're putting up a strawman and trying to brush off their opinions as inherently biased. The reality is that anyone worth listening to about game balance will have a broader perspective of the game in general, discussing the power of a skill/class/mechanic or the undercurrents that shape meta play relative to the big picture.

DreamWind · Jun 12, 2009, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

The easy answer is that you never did

No...the easy answer is ArenaNet never did.

lutz · Jun 12, 2009, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by arienrhode

Really? There have been plenty of metas in the past with dual axe warriors with d-chop, dual rangers or a ranger and a dom mes. In fact turret rangers with RTW and ED or flail were far more dangerous with interrupts than a standard pressure rangers. Anyway, this isn't new. The only thing that has changed is VoR with hum sig is now meta and being that the build is primarily hex based with fairly long recharging skills and a long casting signet, resolve makes it ez mode with virtually no downside other than using a skill slot.

Yes, but you realize - single skills have gotten more powerful. Signet of Humility is one of those. Aegis was one of those.

Those were skills that were basically "you have to interrupt/somehow deal with it". Resolve takes away the ability to dshot or cry the Humility. You're basically left with Gale-ing it or Shocking it.

Motoko · Jun 12, 2009, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Yeah pretty much.

The fact that one uninteruptable non elite can take out an elite skill in a game that is critical for monks to be able to use isn't the best concept. Especially with the dwindling passive defense that hardly exists.

Ex Death · Jun 12, 2009, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

is it safe to conclude that everything is overpowered and every build should be nerfed?

Precisely, and this has been the case for the past 2/3 years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

But hey, when you nerf off-Monk defence so much that people are forced to run stances etc. to stay alive and adrenal gain is much quicker anyway thanks to things like Enraging Charge, no Aegis, and no Ward Melee, what was really expected?

It's not so much that teams are 'forced' as such to run stances to compensate for lack of passive defense. It's just that they are generally the best option for the split/pressure builds which everyone is running. There are still plenty of single targetting skills of defensive value, the only problem is that they are more suited to spike builds which no one seems to run. The fact is that spike builds, albeit not as powerful as before, are still pretty damn strong. Just because of nerfs such as Warrior's Endurance, a couple of ranger skills and Mirror of Ice not being capable of being exploited by fast casting, doesn't mean that spike builds can't be as powerful as hexes. There are still enough templates which exist, or can exist, which involve a 1 second cast time damage skill of ~100 damage, with the rest of the bar being dedicated to energy management and single targetted defense - or perhaps more party healing and hex removal which would probably be more beneficial at the moment. Eg, you can still run Mirror of Ice on a primary ele with (or even without) glyph of elemental power for quite a shitload of damage.