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Old Jun 22, 2009, 05:59 AM // 05:59   #1
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Default Add A Kurzick Handicap?

So as most of you may have noticed the map has refused to change for a very, very long time. I AB every night, and for the past month it has been Grenz for about 90% of the time with the occasional asslands and Saltspray a grand total of ONCE. Now Grenz is usually my favourite map (I play luxon) but seriously when you play it every single damn time it gets old.

So why not add a Kurzick handicap? as in the kurzick wins are worth more towards the border change so we can get some maps going apart from Grenz/Lands, can't even remember the last time I did Keys/Canyon.
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Old Jun 22, 2009, 06:57 AM // 06:57   #2
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How is making wins worth more a handicap?
I to am sick of getting the same maps in AB, but it would be hard to sort something out without whiners and QQ'ers coming to invade. Just leave it as it is. If it gets boring go FA/JQ/RA/HB/PvE
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Old Jun 22, 2009, 07:00 AM // 07:00   #3
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Wouldn't that be a Luxon handicap then if the problem is that Luxons win too many matches?

Putting in any kind of permanent disadvantage for one side is not a desirable solution since the relative strength of each side changes over time. From a physical point of view the current map system can be described as a harmonic oscillator where wins and losses are the pushing force that sets it in motion. There are currently two separate problems with the map rotation, and these can be directly addressed by adjusting the two parameters that describe the oscillator:

The first problem is that the oscillator is lopsided, i.e., it stays predominantly on one side of the equilibrium point. This can be corrected simply by redefining the equilibrium. An automatic mechanism that adjusts the equilibrium once per week so that the weekly average stays within the neutral map region will do the trick.

The second problem is that the oscillator is stagnant, i.e., it is stuck in one point instead of moving through the full range. This can be corrected by adjusting the 'spring constant' which defines how hard one must push to get the pendulum moving. Again, the automatic adjustment can be done once per week by observing the amount of variation. If there is insufficient movement away from the neutral map loosen the spring so that the map changes with less applied force. If the map swings wildly from one end to another stiffen the spring so that more force is needed to move the map.

This kind of automatic adjustment would make sure that on average all maps would see an equal amount of play while keeping the intended feature of short term success driving the selection of the map. The original parameters for the oscillator were hand picked by a developer but they are currently not optimal. An automatic adjustment mechanism would fix this permanently. Since this is a crucial part of keeping the content interesting on the long term I think that the devs should consider implementing such systems.
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Old Jun 22, 2009, 07:21 AM // 07:21   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmakinen View Post
Wouldn't that be a Luxon handicap then if the problem is that Luxons win too many matches?

Putting in any kind of permanent disadvantage for one side is not a desirable solution since the relative strength of each side changes over time. From a physical point of view the current map system can be described as a harmonic oscillator where wins and losses are the pushing force that sets it in motion. There are currently two separate problems with the map rotation, and these can be directly addressed by adjusting the two parameters that describe the oscillator:

The first problem is that the oscillator is lopsided, i.e., it stays predominantly on one side of the equilibrium point. This can be corrected simply by redefining the equilibrium. An automatic mechanism that adjusts the equilibrium once per week so that the weekly average stays within the neutral map region will do the trick.

The second problem is that the oscillator is stagnant, i.e., it is stuck in one point instead of moving through the full range. This can be corrected by adjusting the 'spring constant' which defines how hard one must push to get the pendulum moving. Again, the automatic adjustment can be done once per week by observing the amount of variation. If there is insufficient movement away from the neutral map loosen the spring so that the map changes with less applied force. If the map swings wildly from one end to another stiffen the spring so that more force is needed to move the map.

This kind of automatic adjustment would make sure that on average all maps would see an equal amount of play while keeping the intended feature of short term success driving the selection of the map. The original parameters for the oscillator were hand picked by a developer but they are currently not optimal. An automatic adjustment mechanism would fix this permanently. Since this is a crucial part of keeping the content interesting on the long term I think that the devs should consider implementing such systems.
This is the kind of thing I was thinking of, just couldn't put it into words nearly as well as you have.
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Old Jun 22, 2009, 08:39 AM // 08:39   #5
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To elaborate it a bit further, I've written the same thing in pseudocode.

The current system works like the following:

x is the map position. It's a float that gets values between -6.5 and +6.5, the values corresponding to maps as
-6.5 to -3.5 Ancestral Lands
-3.5 to -0.5 Grenz Frontier
-0.5 to 0.5 Saltspray Beach
0.5 to 3.5 Etnaran Keys
3.5 to 6.5 Kaanai Canyon
v is the current map changing speed in position per polling interval (3 hours)
F is the difference between the sum of Luxon points L and Kurzick points K acquired during the polling interval
w is the spring constant that couples F to v

Every three hours the following is evaluated:

F = L - K
v = v + w * F
x = x + v

The value of x is checked to make sure that it doesn't go beyond limits and that the map doesn't skip over one option (like going directly from Grenz to Etnaran).

The changes that I propose are:

Once per week the system is balanced through evaluating:

y = mean(x) # over the last week
b = sum('Ancestral Lands' or 'Kaanai Canyon') / sum(any map) # over the last week
if (b < 0.1) then w = w * 1.2
if (b > 0.4) then w = w / 1.2

and the regular map change equations become:

F = L - K
v = v + w * F
x = x - y + v

Quite easy to implement I'd say
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Old Jun 22, 2009, 08:42 AM // 08:42   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmakinen View Post
To elaborate it a bit further, I've written the same thing in pseudocode.

The current system works like the following:

x is the map position. It's a float that gets values between -6.5 and +6.5, the values corresponding to maps as
-6.5 to -3.5 Ancestral Lands
-3.5 to -0.5 Grenz Frontier
-0.5 to 0.5 Saltspray Beach
0.5 to 3.5 Etnaran Keys
3.5 to 6.5 Kaanai Canyon
v is the current map changing speed in position per polling interval (3 hours)
F is the difference between the sum of Luxon points L and Kurzick points K acquired during the polling interval
w is the spring constant that couples F to v

Every three hours the following is evaluated:

F = L - K
v = v + w * F
x = x + v

The value of x is checked to make sure that it doesn't go beyond limits and that the map doesn't skip over one option (like going directly from Grenz to Etnaran).

The changes that I propose are:

Once per week the system is balanced through evaluating:

y = mean(x) # over the last week
b = sum('Ancestral Lands' or 'Kaanai Canyon') / sum(any map) # over the last week
if (b < 0.1) then w = w * 1.2
if (b > 0.4) then w = w / 1.2

and the regular map change equations become:

F = L - K
v = v + w * F
x = x - y + v

Quite easy to implement I'd say
This is the most constructive thing I have ever seen in a gaming forum ... ever
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Old Jun 22, 2009, 09:10 AM // 09:10   #7
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There is no fundamental difference between the players who choose to play for Kurzick and the players who choose to play for Luxon. There is also no significant map advantage which goes in the Luxon's favour over the 5 maps, forcing it to the Kurz side.

I'm sorry, but if over time Luxons have won more games and consistently pushed kurz back, then thats just tough cookies. I dont particularly like Grenz, and I would actually quite like something which changed it so that it isnt stuck on Grenz all the time. But giving an advantage to one team after so long seems a little bit unfair to me.

I dont think thats what tmakinen was suggesting, but Im fairly sure thats what Darth was.
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Old Jun 22, 2009, 09:16 AM // 09:16   #8
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I disagree with the idea. If Luxons are winning so much, Kurzicks get better, not get a handicap. Luxons have no in-game advantage over Kurzicks. If for example all Luxons had an extra +10 armor, then yes Kurzicks will be disadvantaged and yes a handicap to Luxons would be fair. But they don't.

If you want to play the advantage map (Grenz when you are Kurz, Etnaran when you are Lux) then switch sides. It's annoying and you can't work on your title, but then it's only fair that way ...

PS: I'll say that my favorite map is Etnaran (I play Kurz), and I'm sad I haven't seen that map for a while. Lol, we're in the same boat.
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Old Jun 22, 2009, 11:08 AM // 11:08   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmakinen View Post
To elaborate it a bit further, I've written the same thing in pseudocode.

The current system works like the following:

x is the map position. It's a float that gets values between -6.5 and +6.5, the values corresponding to maps as
-6.5 to -3.5 Ancestral Lands
-3.5 to -0.5 Grenz Frontier
-0.5 to 0.5 Saltspray Beach
0.5 to 3.5 Etnaran Keys
3.5 to 6.5 Kaanai Canyon
v is the current map changing speed in position per polling interval (3 hours)
F is the difference between the sum of Luxon points L and Kurzick points K acquired during the polling interval
w is the spring constant that couples F to v

Every three hours the following is evaluated:

F = L - K
v = v + w * F
x = x + v

The value of x is checked to make sure that it doesn't go beyond limits and that the map doesn't skip over one option (like going directly from Grenz to Etnaran).

The changes that I propose are:

Once per week the system is balanced through evaluating:

y = mean(x) # over the last week
b = sum('Ancestral Lands' or 'Kaanai Canyon') / sum(any map) # over the last week
if (b < 0.1) then w = w * 1.2
if (b > 0.4) then w = w / 1.2

and the regular map change equations become:

F = L - K
v = v + w * F
x = x - y + v

Quite easy to implement I'd say
complicated... anyway no it wont be fair to make a kurz handicap becuz kurzicks will have a huge advantage over the luxons.
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Old Jun 22, 2009, 11:11 AM // 11:11   #10
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I think it will eventually even out.

JQ is a pretty bad scene now as well, the Kurzick side is packed with ~20 minute wait times because all the cool Luxons play AB and all the cool Kurzicks play JQ.
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Old Jun 22, 2009, 02:04 PM // 14:04   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmakinen View Post
To elaborate it a bit further, I've written the same thing in pseudocode.
tmakinen, you are way too smart to be playing GW. :-P
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Old Jun 22, 2009, 02:15 PM // 14:15   #12
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Theres several things to remember about AB.

Theres multi districts - so there is a big time difference in each language dist to when good players are on.
Zcombat will also pull players away from AB for obvious reasons.
Possibly a lot of kurzic players who have maxxed their title have switched to luxon - so in theory kurzics have less decent players but can also be said about luxons switching.

Ive been in ab matches in usa dist that say 1 in 5 matches the kurzics won and a new team i joined the leader went to asian dist for unknown reasons and it was complete opposite - Kurzicks dominated all the 5 matches .

Does the op play 24hrs hrs a day at ab ? It may be the case when he/she isnt on the gd luxons are off and kurz manage to push bk , then later the gd luxons come online and push back.
If you want to be totally insane and i doubt it would work - get the luxons to lose every single match in all districts so kurz win and push luxons bk fully.Tho i doubt many luxons would agree.
Why not ask/petition anet with the idea of adding map rotation - it changes map every x hrs regardless of who has most wins.
Say lux>kurz>neutral>lux>kurz , that way its rotated and keeps ppl happy - in regards of the territories within cantha it shoudnt be hard to keep it as win/lose and that changes the boundries.Treat AB like its mini skirmishes as im sure in a real war there isnt 1 battle in 1 place but lots of smaller battles also going on.
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Old Jun 22, 2009, 06:15 PM // 18:15   #13
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What I'd like to see is the PVE line not moving due to the actions of PVP. I'd like to be able to vanquish areas with blessings whenever I want, not when my side isn't losing.
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Old Jun 23, 2009, 12:37 PM // 12:37   #14
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Kurzicks already have a tiny advantage over Luxons: in the event of a draw, both reach 500 or more at the same time (even if the Kurzicks go from 499 to 501 and the Luxons go from 499 to 503), the win goes to Kurzicks by default.
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Old Jun 24, 2009, 03:46 AM // 03:46   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lexar View Post
Kurzicks already have a tiny advantage over Luxons: in the event of a draw, both reach 500 or more at the same time (even if the Kurzicks go from 499 to 501 and the Luxons go from 499 to 503), the win goes to Kurzicks by default.
I get so pissed off when this happens, and it happens often enough to be fixed IMO.
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Old Jun 24, 2009, 04:36 AM // 04:36   #16
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It's called divine justice.

Stop whining like a suxon.
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Old Jun 24, 2009, 05:03 AM // 05:03   #17
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As someone who plays Kurzick - I highly doubt giving Kurz a handicap advantage would change things. Look you - if Kurz start winning due to a handicap, how many of the bad players would start thinking it's because they're leet, and wouldn't you have the same situation all over again?
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Old Jun 24, 2009, 05:57 AM // 05:57   #18
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The OP does have a point, for over a week now (?) the map cycle has not moved onto the Luxon side, although it was on Saltspray for a day or so (unusually long for that map too). It usually takes two to three days to cycle though all the maps and on the rare occasion a map does bounce back out of order (e.g. ancestral -> grenz -> ancestral) it only last an few hours. So there's definitely something weird going on.

My guess is the formula used for determining the maps is being skewed by AB being practically depopulated. When I went in a Saturday around 4:00 PM central there were maybe 3 people in party search in the American district and the Euro district was empty. At that time last summer during the weekend there would have been 3 American districts on Grenz (Kurz side), a full Euro district and at least 15 people in party search in the American districts. By the time I did find a group, it took nearly 15 minutes to go in and I only played one game.

Anet needs to make some hard decisions about what they will do with basically every PvP format as they are all in sharp decline number wise and will be unsustainable sooner rather than later. I'm not sure what the best solution for AB is, but something does need to be done.
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Old Jun 24, 2009, 06:54 AM // 06:54   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by distilledwill View Post
There is no fundamental difference between the players who choose to play for Kurzick and the players who choose to play for Luxon.
The original FFF runs broke the symmetry for faction farmers looking to max their title. We've been caught in feedback loops from that ever since.
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Old Jun 26, 2009, 12:09 PM // 12:09   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glacialphoenix View Post
As someone who plays Kurzick - I highly doubt giving Kurz a handicap advantage would change things. Look you - if Kurz start winning due to a handicap, how many of the bad players would start thinking it's because they're leet, and wouldn't you have the same situation all over again?
the main problem i've noticed playing as a kurzick is too many Kurzicks treat AB like it is RA/TA/HA and try to fight other players instead of capping as a team and spiking lone Luxons/fighting Luxons when you have an advantage. far too many Sins think they are invincible and fight mobs, giving free points to the Luxons and hurting their team.

The times i play, i generally see Luxons working in teams, and Kurzicks foolishly attacking Luxon Mobs. Luxons also seem to utilize Paragon ally-wide IMS much better than Kurzicks, and therefore push position advantages better. They play to the format better than we do, and thats why they win. (i play evenings CDT during the week, and almost all weekend)
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