Curse

Vanquisher · Mar 11, 2009, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I think in a lot of aspects the game has continuously improved (e.g. removal of VoD, nerfs to teleports and pure casterspike gimmicks, improvements to gameplay in general (skill activation bars, morale timers) etc.).

Only 1 thing to point out on that. Casterspikes were quite good to play against. They actually added variety to the kind of stuff you saw which was always refreshing, so while they need to be kept in check when balancing, they should still be an option. It's sort of like Hex stack, it should always be an option to shake up the meta every so often, and why skills like the new PnH are awful.

Quote:

The game was definitely a lot more fun overall in the Gale/Blackout era and the 'KGYU pressure' era, lot of movement, splits, flag pushing etc. Gale and Blackout were obviously overpowered, but they weren't brainless skills like Primal Rage and Lingering Curse, you actually needed to coordinate them well to use them to full potential.

Self sufficient and versatile Monks were the reason that period of time was so much fun.

Asplode · Mar 11, 2009, 02:16 PM // 14:16

I think there's only one peaceful way to resolve this thread:

You were good, they were good, everyone is good in a happy land of togetherness and mutual goodness.

However at the same time, we can all form a collective, unified opinion that the game is not perfect, not before and not now either.

...and that should wrap it up nice and neatly.

JR · Mar 11, 2009, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Way to ruin some good drama.

Yue · Mar 11, 2009, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by scruffy

you are wrong JR, 1 deaths charge every 45 seconds never carried a warrior who had bad positioning, same with a monk using return

that idea is laughable tbh, teleports are only good in the hands of good players. if a bad player is using the teleport to tele-spike somebody once every 45 seconds it doesnt matter because he doesnt do anything in the down time anyways.

sure, in the hands of a good player he will have an opportunity to make a good spike every 45 seconds, but he did waste a skill slot for it after all.

I think teleports are fun to watch and fun to use, people take risks on splits when they have teleports not because they are bad but because thats what they brought the skill for, they sacrificed their efficiency for the ability to move around easy.

I think assassins were a good addition to the game, its unfortunate the way they turned out.

Holy shit shut up Feanor. You had no grasp of game mechanics when we first did sealed deck and you failed at it, and you clearly still have no grasp of game mechanics so I got no clue whey ur giving advice anywhere.

FoxBat · Mar 11, 2009, 05:12 PM // 17:12

For the history buffs, I'm curious why it took so long for [Glyph of Sacrifice][Meteor Shower] and other VoD abuse to develop. The general idea of "sit in one place holding the stand/NPCs, then AoE stuff/spike out with VoD damage" didn't seem to require any particular skills, even if stuff like splinter weapon made that easy to throw on a defensive bar.

Master Fuhon · Mar 11, 2009, 05:47 PM // 17:47

This post might at least be minimally helpful and on topic, while relating to the argument that appeared afterwards.

When a person leaves a place for any amount of time, memories of how things were are frozen in time from the reference point of the person who existed in that place. People are trying to say that the reference point (your old self) is mistaken in knowing how things actually were. That's only the case if someone else isn't able to report a view while proving it comes from an advanced perspective. I'd also like to point out that players who haven't left the game for any amount of time wouldn't be capable of doing this, because they have changed along with the game (or by the game). The easiest way I know of doing this is to gain a sense of detachment from how things are going on.

The most important word I can use to describe that previous era of guild wars would be 'competitive'. By definition, competitive does not need to imply anything about skill levels. It only needs to imply that the playing field is distributed more equally to produce closer competition. Competitive activities are self-reported as both more fun and entertaining for those involved, at least compared to the second term I am going to use. I don't think PvP will be anything aside from either of these two.

The best way I could describe how the game is played today is 'anti-competitive'. What this means is that the playing field is skewed to actually produce less competition, because there are so many things players can do to remove any semblance of an opponents chances of winning while playing the game. Trying to compete in guild wars right now is a job if you have to learn every step of the process without someone else guiding you through it. It's a job to everyone who tries to win and loses instead, thus preventing people from taking the next step and actually trying. Winning probably requires being more knowledgeable than the skill balancer himself about some aspects of design.

However, in this era of the game every advantage gets magnified several times over. Minor talent advantage might mean wiping an opponent in 15 minutes; or 8 if they aren't running a defensive build also. In previous eras, the game was balanced to have both teams there at VoD (even though games could run long) with one team winning out. Perception matters just as much as actual competition does, especially when it involves the fact losing every month prevents more people from thinking they themselves are competitive (when in reality they may be playing outdated strategies from previous eras, strategies broken by game design). They psyche themselves before the match and then they actually get beaten.

There are too many microscopic (or fairly large) advantages that a team seeking to win can employ over another. Important kills are all timed after a resurrection pulse. Every single vital map point will be body-blocked. Every winning build will be min/maxed to have the best chance at defending against a split. Every single vital mistake is punished (taking not enough defense), while non-vital mistakes (like taking too much defense) are not. In the case of how typical overpowered builds function, you take too much defense and you cover for every aggressive mistake you make. You only need minimal offense to kill something.

The important thing about my explanation is that I am pointing out that this is entirely a problem centered around players and their beliefs on the importance of winning. But even if those players left, they would only be replaced because the belief system is too common. The original play-to-only-win mentality (instead of having fun) could have entered at any time. However, game balance and design can play a role in minimizing the harmful impacts of these behaviors on competition by reducing the methods of how people make the game anti-competitive. As I have described earlier, playing to win is 'work'. It is neither a positive experience for people to be around or to do themselves, however people do it for the payoffs of winning.

Aside from making apparent superficial changes (previous era builds being reborn might entice former players, bringing more real competition to deal with the growing anti-competition), I think the game is fixable by reporting all anti-competitive measures that players use and having them balanced accordingly. Last patch was a major step forward in that primary NPC defenses (HC and WoW) got hit, and buffs did not center around increasing the advantages provided by anyone's existing game knowledge base. In other words, tell how people win, and get winning nerfed. Then GW can go back to being a competitive game.

Zabe · Mar 11, 2009, 06:02 PM // 18:02

For the discussion about GWWC and GWFC players. I think Tale still occassionally logs in and even plays sometimes. Dont know if that is counted tho. No1 else comes into mind tho.

Or well, ofcourse, danjang still plays. But if we talk about serious gaming then no.

Vanquisher · Mar 11, 2009, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

For the history buffs, I'm curious why it took so long for [Glyph of Sacrifice][Meteor Shower] and other VoD abuse to develop. The general idea of "sit in one place holding the stand/NPCs, then AoE stuff/spike out with VoD damage" didn't seem to require any particular skills, even if stuff like splinter weapon made that easy to throw on a defensive bar.

Few reasons. From release, very few Guilds ever really adopted a stalement strategy (EP being the notable exception with their Spirit spam Fragility gank, which others followed). That continued through the GWWC, all up until a bit before the GWFC. This was, in my opinion, partly because teams were allowed to run strong offense and disruption oriented Builds due to the versatility and competance of Boon Prots, where an E-Prod could mop up red-bar'ing with Party.

Teams often focused on splitting when failing to score kills at the stand, so as to get an advantage for VoD. No one really contemplated just turtling and running a build with the tools to win at that point, and the first time I really saw it used effectively was when KGYU played EnS' dual smite, pushed them back, and lost at VoD because of NPC clumps. Still though, with a 30 minute VoD there was no point in using it as a tactic when you needed to rely on the ladder to get rating to qualify for tournaments.

Then iQ just completely destroyed people with it in a major tournament setting, and people decided that they'd gladly spend 30 minutes doing very little to ensure wins, and because there is no need to be grinding out rating, because there aren't any tournaments that follow the structure of the GWFC qualifying tournaments (top 16 qualify), people are fine to do it because it actually matters more.

So yeah - before it was important to gain rating much quicker, and you could. If you lost 15~ rating because some team decided to be really annoying and either run around a map (ie. Group Therapy on Frozen...) or sit in their NPC's for 30 minutes, it was rare enough that it didn't matter. They'd have to do that every time and in another 20 odd minutes you could make that up against other teams. You wouldn't get in the tournament qualifying spots playing builds like those because others were just more efficient rating grinders, and back then the ladder mattered!

scruffy · Mar 11, 2009, 07:06 PM // 19:06

By game mechanics you mean a working microphone, I understand. I know I'm way out of line by saying 1 spike every 45 seconds isn't much to worry about, but I'm gonna have to stick to my guns.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Mar 12, 2009, 12:10 AM // 00:10

It is if said spike is a more or less garanteed kill.

FoxBat · Mar 12, 2009, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanquisher

Still though, with a 30 minute VoD there was no point in using it as a tactic when you needed to rely on the ladder to get rating to qualify for tournaments.

That makes a ton more sense than people going on and on about skill balance, new classes, etc. Really puts the whole "overly defensive" complaint in a new light. Thanks!

Kaon · Mar 12, 2009, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

For the history buffs, I'm curious why it took so long for [Glyph of Sacrifice][Meteor Shower] and other VoD abuse to develop. The general idea of "sit in one place holding the stand/NPCs, then AoE stuff/spike out with VoD damage" didn't seem to require any particular skills, even if stuff like splinter weapon made that easy to throw on a defensive bar.

- People didn't really think of it, or think of it as viable.
- It would be extremely boring.
- You don't want to do this on ladder.
- Offense was so much more powerful back then. It would've been very hard to make a build that could effectively resist all kinds of builds for 30 minutes and then win. You couldn't really face a casterspike and expect not to die for 30 minutes. Then there were many other ways of pressure: thumpers, hexes, conditions. I think it would've been impossible to counter them all.

In tournament play it's a nice gimmick that gives a decent chance of victory, but that's it. You would've had to been completely crazy to run that in ladder. Much better to just run big guns and beat people.

Also, you could just outplay the opponent with your playerskill, so why bother so much with stupid gimmicks?

Phelann · Mar 12, 2009, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

I think the main reason a lot of people see the pre-factions era as the golden age of GW as matches were actually interesting to observe, basically every match on observer atm is the same.

This.

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Edit:

As long as we are reminiscing about old times:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yue

Holy shit shut up Feanor. You had no grasp of game mechanics when we first did sealed deck and you failed at it, and you clearly still have no grasp of game mechanics so I got no clue whey ur giving advice anywhere.

I was there for this first beautiful instant. And oh what a hilarious time it was.

edit2:

Wouldn't an actual sealed deck gvg tournament be swell.

Vanquisher · Mar 12, 2009, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Phel do you still have GW installed? Come and play fun runaround kill stuff with me.

Phelann · Mar 13, 2009, 12:58 AM // 00:58

terrible college internet and lack of free time conspire to make me just an observer atm, alas. hoping both of those things are fixed come gw2 time far in the future.

Kaon · Mar 13, 2009, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phelann

terrible college internet and lack of free time conspire to make me just an observer atm, alas. hoping both of those things are fixed come gw2 time far in the future.

How can college internet be terrible? All colleges/unis i've heard from (including mine) have like the fastest internet on the planet.

moriz · Mar 13, 2009, 03:18 PM // 15:18

mine is pretty bad also, or at least, the wireless ones are pretty shitty. to get stable connections, i need to jack a computer from the lab, and use its ethernet cable. even then, i still don't get epic euro pings. the lowest i've seen it do is 73, and is mostly in the 150-250 range.

sadly enough, it's still better than the connection i get at home.

Phelann · Mar 13, 2009, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaon

How can college internet be terrible? All colleges/unis i've heard from (including mine) have like the fastest internet on the planet.

Its fast but the lag is ridiculous. I'm good if I want to download a large file but if I want to have reliable ping I'm shit out of luck. An average range of measurements of peing for me is like 60-600-200-100-50-2000-300-400. I also plug directly into the ethernet ( not wireless) and still get RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed by this.

Its awful

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Ex Death · Mar 14, 2009, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Do you get frequent lag spikes?

Phelann · Mar 15, 2009, 02:43 AM // 02:43

mmhmm

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