Curse

Jam Jar · Jul 22, 2009, 08:50 PM // 20:50

It's hard, but do-able in theory. Specifically, I'd like to know how the current Balanced team, meta-Balanced via pvx probably, would stand up to Shovespike. I've personally had no success, and I would hope this would be most likely because the crappy rangers I've played with that have no idea what I'm saying when I'm practically yelling for us to ball-up on vent. Even if our guy is an excellent ranger that can twitch 3/4s no problem, however, there's always the problem of the enemy warrior canceling shove and following with grapple, where, with the down-time of MBane/Dshot, the ranger won't be able to save.

Some options that a couple guys and I thought of are Cry of Frustration or Disrupting Blow, but this won't be able to work unless if you take both, as if they go for the guy with CoF or DB, you won't be able to retaliate.

But there's still a problem after that. Even if you stop the spike, how the hell can you stop three monks with heals and protections? Major pressure? On who, and how?

Worst comes to worse, everyone just take Aura of Stability and stalemate.

O-Ren · Jul 22, 2009, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Me and some of my old guildies came up against this quite a lot about a year ago. Had no idea people were still running it tbh but not done PvP in a while. It's actually pretty easy to beat. The best thing is to not ball imo. Shovespike is hit and run all you need to do is spread out, balling makes it harder to know who they're going after. If your team is spread out far enough Shovespike group will give away their target thus rendering their spike useless since you will be able to hit them with a well timed WoH. Our monk also pre healed with patient spirit to play safe most of the time, but usually we had balanced stance/ AoS/ Brace Yourself or at least one anti KD skill so were un-spikable.

Once shovespike fails they're gonna make a run for it, this is the time where u lolomgrickroll them with your own spike and heavy pressure don't let them run away! Try and separate them, that will make them each useless. Even if you can't separate the group it doesn't matter, they'll either fall under the pressure or it will be a draw. Remember that the monks spike skills deliver 2 separate packs of damage so I don't think Spirit Bond will do anything to save it. You gotta be ready with WoH or w/e. Besides once one spike fails the group know they're screwed, just don't give them a win and lol them for it.

urania · Jul 22, 2009, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Aegis is what makes it more problematic now since was "nerfed". That and other block skills (no,i wont name it.) make it pretty uninterruptable.
Oh, and leech sig is 30 s recharge, shove is 20+they also have grapple. So, you can get 1st spike with it, but the 2nd not rly, unless u dont engage them till sig is recharged.

Gift3d · Jul 22, 2009, 11:40 PM // 23:40

snare.

few snares for the war so he can't shove anything, snaring monks so they can't run away like crybabies after someone gets 321'd, just snare everywhere. water ele or mel shot should do the trick.

Jeydra · Jul 22, 2009, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

Oh, and leech sig is 30 s recharge, shove is 20+they also have grapple. So, you can get 1st spike with it, but the 2nd not rly, unless u dont engage them till sig is recharged.

Shadow Walk = 30s recharge, and runups are really dangerous to attempt against a good team.

I'd Dark Escape if you can afford it, and then AoE snares (Grasping Earth in particular). If they have RC + Divert then hex-based snares would work best; if they have 2x Empathic then Cripple + Poison will probably be more effective.

If you can catch them they will die extremely quickly. It might be 3 Monks, but the Monks have 4 spike skills, 16 Smiting Prayers, they might have Res Sig, they might have Return / Dark Escape, etc. A single Mo/W stance Monk can heal better than all three of them combined. If you catch them they will die really fast; you just have to catch them.

x sithis x · Jul 23, 2009, 12:20 AM // 00:20

imo is u ball up u have best chance cuz i mean they wont shadow step to u if they know u are ready to kick ones buhoocky & they try to single people out so ^^ & yeah a good ballance way or if ur warrior has shock or something & ele has meteor just keep 1 person down when they spike so they cant shadow step back & keep doin that ^^

icedwhitemocha · Jul 23, 2009, 01:40 AM // 01:40

A well played shovespike is next to impossible to beat, esp since Aegis nerf. Pretty much have to hope they make a defensive mistake, which is actually fairly likely considering the likelihood of all 3 monks being career monks.

Jam Jar · Jul 23, 2009, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by O-Ren

It's actually pretty easy to beat. The best thing is to not ball imo. Shovespike is hit and run all you need to do is spread out, balling makes it harder to know who they're going after. If your team is spread out far enough Shovespike group will give away their target thus rendering their spike useless since you will be able to hit them with a well timed WoH. Our monk also pre healed with patient spirit to play safe most of the time, but usually we had balanced stance/ AoS/ Brace Yourself or at least one anti KD skill so were un-spikable.

Our monk pre-patiented and WoHed, but it wasn't enough. My guess is that he didn't land the WoH correctly, but you'll need probably around 250ish healing to save a shovespiked guy's life. The reason I suggested balling up is to make the job of interrupting shove a lot easier. If you can d-shot shove or something, then killing will be a lot easier. But there's always the problem of cancel-skill, so perhaps putting off the interrupt and just pre-patient and WoH would be better. There's a problem with that though: what if they go for the monk?

Quote:

Originally Posted by O-Ren

Once shovespike fails they're gonna make a run for it, this is the time where u lolomgrickroll them with your own spike and heavy pressure don't let them run away!

Can you elaborate?

O-Ren · Jul 23, 2009, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Interrupting shove is always the best option obv. but canceling and the new aegis will make that tactic more difficult. The best way to go about it is to include all the options available, even interrupting one of the monks during a spike and not shove or grapple itself still makes it easier to save. The monks are your best way i would think since iced is right in that you don't stand a chance if the war has Aegis or cancels.

Think about it, if one of those monks gets MB on stonesoul/ holy strike that reduces the spike dmg by 100+ couple that with pre heals (which would be a lot easier spread out than clumped) since you would know who they're after. You also said cry of frustration earlier in your post. Tbh that's another great choice. An AoE interrupt will save u from a lot of spikes not just shove, couple that with the fact it interrupts all skills and u got a great skill on the team. The monks are who i would recommend using it against. The war may cancel shove or grapple or w/e but those monks, they cant risk canceling or they wont be able to spike since the target will be on their feet by then. As a side note also, cry of frustration even at low ranks is pretty decent even if its just for AoE skill interrupts.

Quote:

The reason I suggested balling up is to make the job of interrupting shove a lot easier. If you can d-shot shove or something, then killing will be a lot easier. But there's always the problem of cancel-skill, so perhaps putting off the interrupt and just pre-patient and WoH would be better. There's a problem with that though: what if they go for the monk?

Well our monk at the time always had either balanced stance or something to stop them from being KD'd on either the ranger or another support. Your best options in that case would be Brace Yourself or AoS on ur support. If those can't be run there's always, as i said balanced stance as well as Dark Escape. I've not kept up to date with current meta in PvP as i said in my last post, but balanced stance and shield bash were pretty effective as an all rounder. Dark escape will reduce the spike dmg by half, another one worth bringing as a general self preservation skill against many forms of spike.

Quote:

Can you elaborate?

Shovespike is hit and run. They will shadow step in, kill the target and then they will either kite the rest of the match to guarantee their victory or they will kite until their spikes have recharged which come roughly every 30 secs, since that is the recharge of shadow walk. Most shovespikes wont risk walking right up to the target due to easier interrupts, pre-heals and putting them at risk of dying themselves on the way to their target. If you manage to stop/ save the spike they're gonna make a run for it since they don't stand a chance without their spike damage. As soon as they step in your team should become relentless in applying pressure and using their interrupts to your advantage. Once u have pressure on them they'll go down fast. Even if only one dies their setup isn't very forgiving, one of them will have to come back to res, allowing you more time to kill another etc. y'know what i mean?

Killamus · Jul 23, 2009, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Isn't shove a touch skill?

Why not just have someone bring [[can't touch this]]? Paragons are useful in halls and GvG.

Necromas · Jul 23, 2009, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killamus

Isn't shove a touch skill?

Why not just have someone bring [[can't touch this]]? Paragons are useful in halls and GvG.

Can't touch this is self only in pvp.

Killamus · Jul 23, 2009, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necromas

Can't touch this is self only in pvp.

Yes, but aren't monks the primary target? Just throw this on a monk, they should have 3 spare attribute points to make it more useful.

Jam Jar · Jul 23, 2009, 06:42 AM // 06:42

Thanks for the earlier advice, but would balling up still be more effective? This would take advantage of disrupting blow versus spreading out to maximize monk capability. Also, should the ranger/warrior still risk trying to interrupting shove/grapple, or is it better to skip it and prepare for the monks? And lastly, assuming we use CoF, who should it be placed on?

Quote:

Originally Posted by O-Ren

As soon as they step in your team should become relentless in applying pressure and using their interrupts to your advantage. Once u have pressure on them they'll go down fast. Even if only one dies their setup isn't very forgiving, one of them will have to come back to res, allowing you more time to kill another etc. y'know what i mean?

Are you sure the monks will die fast? Even if they do have 16 smite, there's still three monks to deal with, each with prots/elites ready to heal. At least the teams I faced with could successfully heal back the damage.

Revelations · Jul 23, 2009, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killamus

Yes, but aren't monks the primary target? Just throw this on a monk, they should have 3 spare attribute points to make it more useful.

No. TA meta monk already carries balanced stance or at least dark escape, seeing a Mo/W or Mo/A is enough for shovespike not to bother with them.

Been running Brace on a midline and Cry on a ranger recently. As long as your brace guy is onto it and you don't ball they can't spike that. As soon as you get a single kill on them with above two skills they either resign or lose at timer anyway.

In the absence of said skills stance removal can help if you get adrenaline for it. For the first spike this will not happen, but you may be able to spear/wand them for enough adren for whirling axe before the next spike. You then have to know roughly who it's going to be on, so this is a pretty stupidly long shot.

A midline draw/feast/whatever of crushings DW will go a long way toward helping your monk stop the spike, as will a lucky block of crushing if you have a stance up. Magebane can be useful against the monks, don't even bother trying on the war. Other ranger interrupts will probably just eat the 75% from prot defense.

Snares will help in chasing them down, but not as much as people would have you believe. Anyone saying they have less defense than a meta WoH is wrong. LS, WOH, Divert, Patient, Guardian, Spirit Bond, 4x dash, 3x return, and Heart of Shadow. Crip gets eaten by LS. Hex snares will potentially screw this over, but the only really TA viable one is grasping. If they're carrying RC then you can probably crip and train it, but 90% of them go with LS now, and even if not they're capable of ridiculous terrain traversal that you don't have a hope of keeping up with.

For that matter, there are several maps which you basically autolose on, unless you can predict a return.

urania · Jul 23, 2009, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by icedwhitemocha

A well played shovespike is next to impossible to beat, esp since Aegis nerf. Pretty much have to hope they make a defensive mistake, which is actually fairly likely considering the likelihood of all 3 monks being career monks.

hehe, very true~
unless you have grapsing necro that will grasp them ALL on the spike there's little chance you'll ever catch up with them. 4x return, heart of shadow, dash, dark escape are just (ab)used to their finest in such builds. But in order to grasp them all you'll need 3 ppl to ball, which makes it a real biatch to know precisely which target they will ultimately go for, so the prepatient+woh after tactic falls pretty much out of the question. And a single woh won't save the spike anyway, especially not if the deep wound is not disrupted.

at Jeydra, true, but if you recommend aoe snares that usually involves balling, and vs ballups they dont need to teleport at all. Moreover, they carry 2 knockdowns and 1 offensive teleport on the warrior, so yeah, they don't (normally) fully rely on the teleport for the spike.
But yeah, grapsing them works(/ed) best, especially in the times of CE grasp necros, sometimes hammer warriors with graspig.

Master Ketsu · Jul 24, 2009, 04:58 AM // 04:58

The only thing I can think of is subbing something for supportive spirit, and bringing snares...but thats pretty lame to have to sub stuff just for one recently overpowered build.

While I haven't tested it, "Can't touch this!" may also be a possible anti shove spike move but even then it would be more of a stalemate.

IMO Anet should have changed the majority of shadow steps to 50% failure with crit strikes 4 or less a very very long time ago.

Jeydra · Jul 24, 2009, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killamus

Isn't shove a touch skill?

Why not just have someone bring [[can't touch this]]? Paragons are useful in halls and GvG.

If the Shovespike goes for a Monk first, they aren't very clever. The spike isn't savable by the Monk alone, and so the Monk is no threat. You are much better off going for someone with damage. If you kill him, then you'll have less to worry about while running away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

Snares will help in chasing them down, but not as much as people would have you believe. Anyone saying they have less defense than a meta WoH is wrong. LS, WOH, Divert, Patient, Guardian, Spirit Bond, 4x dash, 3x return, and Heart of Shadow. Crip gets eaten by LS. Hex snares will potentially screw this over, but the only really TA viable one is grasping. If they're carrying RC then you can probably crip and train it, but 90% of them go with LS now, and even if not they're capable of ridiculous terrain traversal that you don't have a hope of keeping up with.

They have:

16 Smiting Prayers, which also means low spec into Healing / Protection Prayers / Divine Favour;
Just spent 20 energy on Shadow Walk -> 2x smite skills -> Dash;
If they used Aegis then it's 30 energy;
Only 3 defensive skills per Monk (sometimes 4 if they drop Res Sig);
Only one Monk with bar push, and it's not at 14 Healing Prayers.

Once you catch them, the Shovespike crumbles in fantastic fashion. Of course catching them in the first place is not easy, but I'm saying that the build is nowhere near unkillable because of the three Monks. Three REAL Monks, maybe. Three Shovespiking Monks, no.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

at Jeydra, true, but if you recommend aoe snares that usually involves balling, and vs ballups they dont need to teleport at all. Moreover, they carry 2 knockdowns and 1 offensive teleport on the warrior, so yeah, they don't (normally) fully rely on the teleport for the spike.
But yeah, grapsing them works(/ed) best, especially in the times of CE grasp necros, sometimes hammer warriors with graspig.

Well if they don't teleport, then they cannot warp out after a spike, leaving them fully vulnerable while they retreat with Dash. Also, if the Warrior uses both KDs, he'll be low on energy and so can't Dash, and while you're running up against typical balanced the Ranger and Necro are free to cast (and the Warrior build adrenaline).

Grasping Earth is really dangerous to Shovespike if you catch all of them. It lasts quite long and overloads the Divert Hexes Monk (10e per cast). Not so effective against 2x Empathic Removal though. I think Water snares (MoI Ele) are effective against Shovespike too, although I don't know how well they work in practice.

Foe · Jul 24, 2009, 01:03 PM // 13:03

There are countless ways to spec shove spike. The problem is doing so gimps your team build vs non-shove teams.

bungusmaximus · Jul 26, 2009, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Balling up and shocking shove works, as I tried it myself, but one slip and you're f*cked. That build needs to die in a carfire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Ketsu

IMO Anet should have changed the majority of shadow steps to 50% failure with crit strikes 4 or less a very very long time ago.

IMO aNet should have smiters booned all shadow steps a long long time ago.

Jam Jar · Jul 27, 2009, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Balling up and shocking shove works, as I tried it myself, but one slip and you're f*cked. That build needs to die in a carfire.

Dunno, new Aegis stops it. Even if you knock him down, there's no guarantee that they won't pull another grapple. And besides, assuming your warrior's pushing when they're retreating, how can he teleport backwards when they shadow step and spike again?

EDIT: Yes, this build need to burn to death and have itself ripped to shreads.