Curse

Revelations · Jul 22, 2009, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas The Keen

You think that a 1s cast will make the skill any more balanced? I'm guessing you want to make it so that the skill is interruptable? Since blind only effects melee and increasing the casting time is aimed at allowing interrupts, this change will basically only help melee that have interrupts. In other words: just rangers.

Once your proposed skill change is made you now expect a ranger to be camping a D/P to interrupt the skill that he only has to use once every 30 seconds? OK. Not to mention the fact that THE RANGER WILL BE BLINDED 90% OF THE MATCH ANYWAY. yeah, great skill change idea, bud.

Coordinating a removal and interrupt around the time it's due to come back up isn't incredibly difficult. 1s cast is also fairly susceptible to shock/dchop with a little prediction, and gives you a big opportunity to notice it and land a rip before the cover lands. It's also very interruptable with a mesmer 'rupt that way, unlike it's current form.

As I mentioned, it's still ridiculous martial shutdown, but it rewards coordination and timing with a window of opportunity. Would it still be insanely buildwarsy? Hell yes, but there's a hell of a lot more opportunity to keep it down than in it's current state.

scruffy · Jul 22, 2009, 05:18 AM // 05:18

when are they going to nerf ebon dust aura? hopefully never, the skill sucks enough as it is.

thread over or wat?

Jeydra · Jul 22, 2009, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

There is NO comparison to the blinds this guy can throw out. Just under one per second for a burst if he's got adrenaline and IAS up, and it's a shitton less counterable.

Why are you so opposed to a simple 1s cast on EDA?

Yeah of course he can throw out more blinds than anyone else, but he's also a lot more one-dimensional.

The "simple" 1s cast on EDA ... a couple of reasons. One, it's hard enough to get off 1s spells against a good Ranger intent on keeping it down, and even more so on a spell that can't be HCT'ed (often enough anyway). I think such a change will focus the game even more on interrupts, which I do not want. Two, I don't think the build will survive this change. If the Ranger keeps EDA down like the 1s cast allows it to, then the entire Derv build collapses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

For your information, if you wanna spec against a team with EDA derv and a BHA ranger you need plague signet and rend on your N. Without plague signet you might get the first EDA down with rend, but its a matter of seconds before the next one comes up and by that time you will already be miserably dazed and trained until you finally die. And yes, I do think necs still need rend and no, even CE+rip cant keep EDA down if the derv calls for covers as he should.

You don't have to rip EDA. You can rip all the other enchantments. Once an enchantment goes down, the Dervish has to put them back up, no matter what they are - or risk EDA getting removed. And while he's putting them up, he's not outputting blind. The build you gave, two enchantment removals in a row will remove EDA; think Me/N with Corrupt + Rip ala GvG.

As for getting Dazed, you could run condition removal on the Monk.

I did say once though I don't intend to debate TA, so I'm not saying anything else in response to your post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

And please, for the love of EDA, stop saying how u can outposition them - if you're dodging their spears you're either not attacking their teammates and running around randomly (and in that case they wont bother with u unless they're stupid) or have a 75% block up such as critical defenses/flashing blades/escape. Remember, they can force YOU out of position, but not the other way around.

I assumed RA, remember? You can outposition the D/P in RA, especially if you have a shadowstep. At least, I can. Arenas like Fort Koga, you run down the stairs, wait for the Derv to run down after you, then you shadowstep up and unleash. If the Derv doesn't run down after you, then give him a while and shadowstep up anyway, preferably targetting someone other than the Derv. If once you shadowstep up he turns around and blinds you, then he's doing a great job and I don't see what there is to complain.

Unless I'm better than you at RA, I don't see why you can't outposition the D/P either.

reaper with no name · Jul 22, 2009, 01:12 PM // 13:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

Obviously you don't understand why this skill is overpowered, why I'm not QQing about Bsurge / blind was mingson, and why the warrior is often the smartest + most spatially aware member of a team.

Just take rending touch --> rending touch is useless 99% of the time and I'm not going to waste bar space.

If EDA wasn't overpowered I'd just dchop it and not make a thread.

If it's not worth one skill slot to beat the blindbot, then he's clearly not bad enough to warrant a nerf, now is he? You've got 8 slots, after all.

Basically, what it looks like is you want to be able to play a warrior who does nothing but damage and expect to steamroll over everything. Sorry, but the game doesn't work like that. There is a little thing called strategy that exists. If the enemy designs a strategy for dealing with you and you refuse to counter it, then you deserveto lose.

And once again, this blindbot is useless against half the classes in the game. Oh noes, he can beat me! Get over it, unless you want him QQing about how blindness doesn't affect casters.

pah01 · Jul 22, 2009, 02:12 PM // 14:12

hey if you have just joined in april you are not qualified to comment on anything.

Edit: Just for idiots. Quite a number of skills are imbalanced in the 4v4 format, but are bad in 8v8. This is to be expected.
The discussion then is not whether EDA is imbalanced in 4v4 which it is, but whether or not Arenent should balance skills
for 4v4. I think they should because why should they leave a format to rot.

Paul

Lux Aeterna · Jul 22, 2009, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Watch EDA cast -> Count recharge -> Shock -> Qrupt D-chop

But I'm already blind + crippled and have been for the entire game.

For everyone who says, just change your build to counter antimelee: I DID change my build, see other thread, in fact it worked great, and I change my build constantly because I'm a thinker.

Take plague touch: then I get hit with empathy and faint
Take rending touch: useless against everything except eda derv

I've been running empathic removal in RA which works excellently against everything but eda.

Regulus X · Jul 22, 2009, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

hey if you have just joined in april you are not qualified to comment on anything.

Edit: Just for idiots. Quite a number of skills are imbalanced in the 4v4 format, but are bad in 8v8. This is to be expected.
The discussion then is not whether EDA is imbalanced in 4v4 which it is, but whether or not Arenent should balance skills
for 4v4. I think they should because Why should they leave a format to rot?

Paul

Because they can...?

lol j/p.. but to be completely honest [for them], they aren't recieving a monthly income like WoW or other Pay-2-Play MMORPGs out there to reap anything from fixing GW1 related issues. Hence, the developers really don't have any incentive to do work on GW1. GW2 will reel them in a huge profit if & when they finish it up and release it, which is why they've alloted nearly all their designers/developers to it. It's the way of the beast and the "greatest flaw" to freeplay MMORPGs.

urania · Jul 22, 2009, 04:55 PM // 16:55

at Jeydra, what would we do without mighty shadow stepping, eh?

/facepalm

Bobby2 · Jul 22, 2009, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Meh. Broken shit gets answered with broken shit. Nothing new.

Jeydra · Jul 22, 2009, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

at Jeydra, what would we do without mighty shadow stepping, eh?

/facepalm

Run past a corner and stand there. If the Derv follows you unload on him; if he doesn't follow you give him a few moments and run back past the corner and find a target as per normal. If he turns around and blinds you then he's doing a great job of shutting you down, so why complain?

pah01 · Jul 22, 2009, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Jeydra why are you giving the entire guru community material for ad hominem attacks?

Xyon the Greatest · Jul 23, 2009, 12:37 AM // 00:37

ebon dust aura definently needs a nerf... maybe half the blind so its very challenging to perma it.

Regulus X · Jul 23, 2009, 02:02 PM // 14:02

I'm in favor for Anet changing the "blind" condition from 90% to as low as 50% to combine with Blurr Vision, Wreckless Haste, etc. and cap miss rate at 75%. 90% miss from blind + Weakness + Hexes + Snares + Block = Physical Wars tbh...

..but then again, these threads only serve us players the purpose of venting all the bullsh!t we're stuck with because the game ceases to be cared for by their makers.

urania · Jul 23, 2009, 02:58 PM // 14:58

^sad but true.

at Jeydra, you won't be unloading much because you won't have any adrenaline. As a sin (I'm assuming you play one since you had to mention shadow stepping) you might get 1st and possibly 2nd attack off, then gonna be blind UNLESS you have critical defenses or flashing blades up, as I have already mentioned. Moreover, you haven't replied to my sarcastic remark about shadowstepping, so I advise you not to not use it in your further arguments unless you wanna present a solution to a problem with another problem.
On a side note, I presume you did not find the old prefer fear me spam overpowered either, did ya?

at Pah01, I hope don't have my posts in mind when you mentioned ad hominem attacks by the community.

Jeydra · Jul 23, 2009, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Well what else can you do? He has a counter build to yours, and if he intends to make you suffer then you suffer. You can minimize his effectiveness, make it hard(er) for him to stop you, etc, but you can't completely shrug him off yes? I suppose in the above situation if he follows you and blinds before you can get the second attack in, then the next best thing to do is to keep running and hope your teammates win the ensuing 3v3. It's of course not an ideal solution, but I don't know a better alternative.

As I mentioned above, compare the E/Me Mind Blast template. It's a strong build no doubt, some think it's overpowered as well. But if you run into your counterbuild - the Migraine Mesmer with 6 interrupts, or less dramatic but more dangerous, a Migraine + Conjure Phantasm + 3 interrupts + Drain Enchant or similar, you are in trouble. If he doesn't like you and overextends to put Migraine on you, then you are paralyzed and might degen to death, your ability to spam 25e spells on recharge notwithstanding. You can't even get off strong self-heals since you can barely cast.

In the same way, if you're a physical and run into EDA (your counterbuild), and he goes out of his way to keep you blind, then what else can you do? You can minimize his effectiveness, make it hard(er) for him to stop you, etc, but you can't completely shrug him off yes?

Reverend Dr · Jul 24, 2009, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Stop living under the illusion that you can have a fully self-supported character in a team-based game.

Warriors especially, have to have more team support. Sure a single heal/support such as mending touch, lion's comfort, or even empathic can help a lot in a place where you are not certain what you are going to have alongside you. This, however, will never make up for not having a team to support you, especially against something designed specifically to shut you down.

Guild Wars is not 1v1. It is not that hard to make a build that will completely shut down another build. This goes for melees, casters, and everything. What is being complained about is not EDA being overpowered in a team environment, but EDA being overpowered in a 1v1 environment.

bungusmaximus · Jul 24, 2009, 08:49 AM // 08:49

I think that's uranias point more or less, that the EDA is also very strong in teams, not just in 1vs1. I can see where he's going, because characters that output perma blind and cripple are pretty useful in TA.

Lux Aeterna · Jul 24, 2009, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Well what else can you do? He has a counter build to yours, and if he intends to make you suffer then you suffer. You can minimize his effectiveness, make it hard(er) for him to stop you, etc, but you can't completely shrug him off yes?

You don't play warrior?

See my thread on antimelee -- if someone has a counter to me, I'm not just going to suffer through it -- I'm going to think hard and try to counter them back, and generally throw all my mental effort into wrecking their shit through any means, whether it's shock spamming and timing my dchops carefully, or kiting out their critical D, or talking in team and getting help, or asking the ranger to interrupt, or staying in frenzy because I need to be despite damage, or whatever.

The point is,

1) Counters I could bring to EDA would be useless against other methods of antimelee.

2) The shutdown provided by it is harder to counter than nearly anything else.

3) This build seems a little bit exploitive of a poorly thought out skill, and could be easily nerfed without screwing scythe dervishes.

Revelations · Jul 24, 2009, 06:26 PM // 18:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

What is being complained about is not EDA being overpowered in a team environment, but EDA being overpowered in a 1v1 environment.

Pretty sure that a lot of the more intelligent posts are arguing about it's power in TA, where you have very limited space to fit the support required to beat a build like this.

In an 8v8 environment you have space for deep enchant strips, and more condition removal. You also have more off-warrior damage to deal with something like blind spam. In TA against anyone worth mentioning you need your entire offense coordinating to push kills. If one or two of them are nearly completely shut down by EDA this is not going to happen. The only viable option to keep your full offense at close enough to maximum efficiency to score kills (if your build includes physicals) against this is rend. Note that the opposing team is also very very aware of this fact, so unless you successfully manage to fake it against disrupting throw/dshot/savage/BhA/shock/whatever then your rend still isn't going to be incredibly useful. Feast, Fleshwound, Draw, or Mendtouch will all help somewhat - and note that this is off warrior support here. But will they keep your full team clean enough to press kills? Not against anyone with half a brain on that dervish.

Reverend Dr · Jul 24, 2009, 09:33 PM // 21:33

When I'm talking about 1v1 complains I'm talking about the people that are complaining that their one build can't counter it, but ignoring the fact that there are 3 other people on the team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

In TA

Blind shuts the dervish down.

Blurred, Reckless.

Empathy, Insidious, VoR are going to keep it from applying the blind nearly as often.

Foul Feast + plague sending. Apply the blind to the derv and it'll keep up against the derv very well.

Mesmers sometimes bring drain and shatter enchant. Rend enchantments is still a good spell. Besides I don't know where people get the idea that GvG has "deep" enchantment rips. Corrupt + rip is strong, but its also strong in TA, and that build is gimmicky in its own right. Shatterstone paragon? Really? In GvG a Mind Blast that gets fire attune removed was just not paying attention. Rend is gone from GvG and deep removal just isn't as useful in the wow/resilient/stance heavy meta.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

I'm going to think hard and try to counter them back, and generally throw all my mental effort into wrecking their shit through any means

Hide behind walls. Dodge spears. You can't put out the normal constant pressure that a warrior does. If the dervish is training just you then make the match 3v3 until you get a chance to unload. If the dervish won't let go at all, pull the dervish way out of position.

But just like a monk in that arena, in this case you are just entirely dependent upon the support and performance of the rest of your team. This may be the answer that you don't want to hear. While wanting to improve individual play is good, this is ultimately a team game and this situation is something that you just can't 'individual play' yourself out of.