Curse

Revelations · Jul 20, 2009, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

You're not SUPPOSED to be able to beat everything. That's the whole point of balance.

I agree that buildwars should form part of the game. There are naturally going to be counters to certain builds or skills. However, there should be a way to DEAL with these counters at a reduced efficiency. As it stands, EDA wins against physical heavy teams, nearly hands down. Though a moderate amount of buildwars is healthy to encourage competition, a single skill deciding the outcome of a match before it even begins is ridiculous.

I imagine that even such a small nerf as a simple 1 second cast would absolutely satisfy the majority of people in this thread. That way EDA is still an insane counter to physicals in 4v4, yet the physicals do have the opportunity to create a window for themselves if they play effectively.

Regulus X · Jul 20, 2009, 05:53 PM // 17:53

EDA is most obviously melee-only shutdown so melee are exempt from rupting EDA's as they are blinded (duh lol). So, I say that the only one's who should be capable of stopping them are midlining casters. I'd propose in making EDA take 1-2 seconds cast time to allow a window of opportunity to use spell-based interrupts and stripping's always a most viable option.

TrippieHippie89 · Jul 20, 2009, 06:10 PM // 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by jiggles

Hi I am a warrior. No I cannot take any of that stuff sorry I am too busy pumping damage like a warrior should be. Good day to you sir.

so i hurd warriors could bring rending touch

i also hurd that strips enchants

d/p is a mediocre build thats really only effective in RA and HB, caster heroes seem to be the most popular in HB atm(except the 3 r/p capway teams) so they arent seen all too often in there and as for RA, except for when the ZC is RA, who really cares about RA?

Tearz1993 · Jul 20, 2009, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrippieHippie89

so i hurd warriors could bring rending touch

i also hurd that strips enchants

It's been stated early in the thread this isn't the problem. The problem is the mystic regen / heart of fury cover, so since EDA is a 1/4 second cast you usually can't reflexively remove before the cover gets applied.

But the second part of your post I agree with, it isn't over powered in any other format.

Arkantos · Jul 20, 2009, 06:40 PM // 18:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

Reason(s) for EDA Blindbot being OP'd:

Deep enchant removals are required to be stapled to builds (in 4v4, it can drastically lower the team's dps and/or utility).
Mindlessly easy blind application/cover-condition while dps'ing with easy bleeding from barbed.
1/4 cast and 20 recharge make it near-impossible to rupt-counter it.

Any questions?

Reason for it not getting a nerf:

lol RA

Dodo The Extinct · Jul 20, 2009, 07:15 PM // 19:15

It should be changed. I agree, that build is VERY strong in RA/TA. The amount of people saying "lol change ur build" are stupid lol. Warriors need to kill and can't spend their time worrying about countering a single build.

Regulus X · Jul 21, 2009, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Reason for it not getting a nerf:

lol RA

Reason why Arkantos' comment is bad:

Bad comments are bad.

Ariena Najea · Jul 21, 2009, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

Reason why Arkantos' comment is bad:

Bad comments are bad.

But we love Arky, so it's ok.

Whenever I've brought a physical lately to RA, it's usually Assassin and I make sure to bring Assassin's Remedy. Don't have any problems with the D/P. Now, while all physicals don't have this option, there have been some good suggestions. Bringing Plague Touch (or Plague Sending) instead of Antidote Signet or Mending Touch helps the other classes cope, and when used well, can blind the opposing melee, spread deep wound to the Monk, etc.

On a side note, I've gone against these numerous times while on my Mesmer (usually playing Power Block) and haven't seen my team's physicals struggling too much. Also, I had fun with one in particular since I just Shamed his cover, and Diverted EDA when it was time for him to refresh.

Reverend Dr · Jul 21, 2009, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by bungusmaximus

Ironically enough a warrior on the team that knows what it's doing is your best chance for getting long streaks

Same with a traditional esurge dom mes or pblock mes. If you can get all of the support you need you will roll into TA. In both cases you will lose more initial matches but are able to generate streaks far easier.

Jeydra · Jul 21, 2009, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

Jeydra, if your migraine mes could maintain it on the entire enemy team and interrupt 90% of spells that they attempted to cast then it would perhaps be more relevant. I wouldn't give a shit if EDA was capable of keeping one physical out of the game, you'd still be in a position to easily enough push kills with good timing of condi pulls.

I agree that buildwars should form part of the game. There are naturally going to be counters to certain builds or skills. However, there should be a way to DEAL with these counters at a reduced efficiency. As it stands, EDA wins against physical heavy teams, nearly hands down. Though a moderate amount of buildwars is healthy to encourage competition, a single skill deciding the outcome of a match before it even begins is ridiculous.

If the Migraine Mesmer wanted (and if he's skilled enough) he can shutdown two characters at a time. Migraine one, Frustration the other, interrupt both.

There is already a way to reduce the effectiveness of the EDA as a physical. You can put distance between the two of you, put obstructions, KD him, etc. They aren't perfect and I don't claim they are. But they reduce his effectiveness. If you're unhappy about this then again compare the Migraine Mesmer. All he has to do to shut you down is the walk within your range, and then all you can do after that is to either have pre-Veil / Hex Breaker, or interrupts. And after he gets Migraine on you, you'll be degening out. You can still turn and run and hope he overextends to get to you and then your teammates attacking the AL 60 guy, but in RA that's asking for a lot.

Point is, he's running a counter build to you, and if he goes out of his way to make your life miserable you'll suffer, like it or not. He doesn't have to be running EDA too. I'd imagine BSurge + Aura of Resto covering Air Attunement would win against a physical-heavy team as well. In fact I've already done that many times with my BFlash spam. What's your point?

@urania - just curious, if you're so unhappy with the EDA build why not just run Rend Enchants? Add in Pious Concentration if you're worried about the Ranger interrupting it, and voila problem solved with minimal fuss. Rend has its uses against other classes (eg. the E/Me Mind Blaster); it's not a skill you slot in just to counter one specific problem (eg. Sight Beyond Sight).

I also think people underestimate how much skill is required to run the build. I've still not tried it myself - can't for at least another week too - but to make the build work I'd imagine you need to keep LoS to all your targets (who'll be splitting up as much as they can too), spread as much bleeding as you can, and your blinds can't be applied unless you've got adrenaline (or Swift Javelin recharged) so if you make a mistake there'll be a fair window to kill you. And you can't add much damage to pressure out another team's healer, and you're unable to defend your teammates against anything other than melee.

I highly doubt the build can shut down three physicals by the way. Two probably. Three, including removal? I doubt it.

PS: What build exactly are we talking about? EDA, Barbed Spear, Crippling Spear, Swift Javelin, Heart of Fury, Res, a cover enchant I suppose, and what?

Arkantos · Jul 21, 2009, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

Reason why Arkantos' comment is bad:

Bad comments are bad.

I believe you mean true comment is true. Do you honestly think ANet cares about a build that is overpowered in shitter PvP areas? I'll let you in on a little secret: no, they don't.

Revelations · Jul 21, 2009, 01:13 PM // 13:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@urania - just curious, if you're so unhappy with the EDA build why not just run Rend Enchants? Add in Pious Concentration if you're worried about the Ranger interrupting it, and voila problem solved with minimal fuss.

Aside from the fact that this forces you to run a N/D (or D/N) it also elevates the element of buildwars involved.

Also, bflash is a 3/4 cast with 4 recharge on a bar which has difficulties if it's attune is interrupted or stripped. Spamming bflash on recharge is also going to get it dshotted. While barbed spear is slightly vulnerable to the same the bar can still pump out roughly 4 blinds every ten seconds without it.

There is NO comparison to the blinds this guy can throw out. Just under one per second for a burst if he's got adrenaline and IAS up, and it's a shitton less counterable.

Why are you so opposed to a simple 1s cast on EDA?

Animate · Jul 21, 2009, 02:38 PM // 14:38

When I saw this thread, I knew it would be from a Warrior.
QQ Blinding Surge QQ Midnight Signet QQ EDA QQ Blind was Mingson [...]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

I know you're just gonna say "take sight beyond sight", but most of the time it's just wasted space.

/facepalm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

Either that or just remove the skill from the game ty.

/facepalm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

Note: If I banged my face on their face, they'd like it a lot less than me ESPECIALLY because my face would not have a permanent, bleeding, crippled 90% chance to miss their face.

Please stop banging your face already. You have lost enough braincells by now.

You can counter an EDA Dervish simply by using Rend Enchantments, or any sufficient enchantment removal.
BUT! 99% do not know how to rend / disenchant properly. Therefore they deserve to lose. This is not theory crafting.

EDA is overpowered only when you can't disenchant it. Stop whining.

Warrior sees: Nothing, he is blind. Warrior tries to look: What is blinding me. Warrior finds: Another evil blinding skill! Warrior knows: It must be removed from the game, it must be nerfed to oblivion.

Brilliant thought pattern............

GW's supposed to be a team game. Bring sufficient enchantment removal in your team and know how to use it. Nowadays people know how to stand in a monk's face with low ping to press the Dshot button when WoH comes, or how to spam interrupts at monks who just stood up (awesome prediciton skill 321spike, wow good). When more EDA is played, perhaps you should learn how to use enchantment removal, it really isn't that hard and can even be done with an orange ping, it only requires some sentient thinking. And if your enemy outplays your enchantment removal, they deserved the win. It's as simple as that.

By the way, how are Mantra of Resolve and Pious Concentration doing? A month ago people whined about that. Have those two evil skills been nerfed to oblivion as requested? Or why is it EDA now?

Seriously, GW needs a sandbox mode for all the huge babies.

urania · Jul 21, 2009, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Point is, he's running a counter build to you, and if he goes out of his way to make your life miserable you'll suffer, like it or not. He doesn't have to be running EDA too. I'd imagine BSurge + Aura of Resto covering Air Attunement would win against a physical-heavy team as well. In fact I've already done that many times with my BFlash spam. What's your point?

The whole point is that an ele won't ever be able to keep so many ppl blind as long as the necro keeps the r clean - sooner or later his/her spells WILL get disrupted, because they can be. Gl disrupting 1/4 cast spells and attack skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@urania - just curious, if you're so unhappy with the EDA build why not just run Rend Enchants? Add in Pious Concentration if you're worried about the Ranger interrupting it, and voila problem solved with minimal fuss. Rend has its uses against other classes (eg. the E/Me Mind Blaster); it's not a skill you slot in just to counter one specific problem (eg. Sight Beyond Sight).

For your information, if you wanna spec against a team with EDA derv and a BHA ranger you need plague signet and rend on your N. Without plague signet you might get the first EDA down with rend, but its a matter of seconds before the next one comes up and by that time you will already be miserably dazed and trained until you finally die. And yes, I do think necs still need rend and no, even CE+rip cant keep EDA down if the derv calls for covers as he should.
The reason why I am so unhappy with EDA is similar to the reason why I was unhappy with preferred triple SoJ caster sins, not to mention the old triple fear-me scythe, and later on axe, warrs - ridiculously strong builds for ridiculously low skill input. Though, with fear-me warrs there was no real rps play in it - u just simply lost to it running whatever, sometimes even if u had grasping earth, which eventually finally finished off the build after fear me was nerfed.
Also, anyone claiming Anet never nerfs things cuz of arenas like TA - SoJ sins are one of the examples they do that too. That, and fear me warrs, to a certain extent. It happens once every few years tho x).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I also think people underestimate how much skill is required to run the build. I've still not tried it myself - can't for at least another week too - but to make the build work I'd imagine you need to keep LoS to all your targets (who'll be splitting up as much as they can too), spread as much bleeding as you can, and your blinds can't be applied unless you've got adrenaline (or Swift Javelin recharged) so if you make a mistake there'll be a fair window to kill you. And you can't add much damage to pressure out another team's healer, and you're unable to defend your teammates against anything other than melee.

Please, read my "bulk" of post that gives insight on how they can add pressure and damage that can give the edge for their team to kill. The bleeding pressure only really matters more than the blind when there is no physicals to blind. No one will be spreading bleeding just for kicks otherwise..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I highly doubt the build can shut down three physicals by the way. Two probably. Three, including removal? I doubt it.

it has the capacity to keep 3 down. with removal, it keeps 2 down very easily.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

PS: What build exactly are we talking about? EDA, Barbed Spear, Crippling Spear, Swift Javelin, Heart of Fury, Res, a cover enchant I suppose, and what?

I believe all normaly include:
(1)barbed spear
(2-3)wild throw eda+ a 1/4s cast cover enchant(s):shield of force&mystic regen, sometimes heart of fury instead of mystic regen
(4)disrupting throw (not sure if always).
(5) rez (sometimes left out for sth else)

the variations come with spear of redemption, crippling spear, blazing spear, merciless spear etc.

I only have the old-school p/d template saved, so i can only name the skills I remember being used against me so far.

And please, for the love of EDA, stop saying how u can outposition them - if you're dodging their spears you're either not attacking their teammates and running around randomly (and in that case they wont bother with u unless they're stupid) or have a 75% block up such as critical defenses/flashing blades/escape. Remember, they can force YOU out of position, but not the other way around.

At Arkantos - please, rather stay out of this, if you have nothing more to say but LOLZ U NUBS ANET WONT EVER NERF ANYTHING FOR ARENAS. It's as old as fk. And very annoying.

at Animate and Jeydra, please, please PLEASE for the love of god, read what I post.
Don't think a necro will have a lot of chances to get a 2 s spell off - (especially) with , but also without BHA, they will be the primary target of everything - kd lock, rupt on vital skills like rend. (But you should only rly look at EDA when its used in synergy with BHA)
I am seriously starting to get annoyed by this weird incapability of some posters to actually read other people's posts before posting themselves or their intentional ignoring of posts that explain a certain point.
Trust me, BEST u will get vs a team that will keep ur necro dazed 24/7 is a draw.

Moreover, Animate - as far as Signet of Midnight is concerned -a normal team with n r m and a w could keep it down, but 2 Signets of M were virtually indestructible. And with 2 dom mesmers, trust me, things died eventually - for sure. So please, PLEASE, cut the crap about QQing if you don't even know what you're really talking about.
/facepalm
As far as mantras are concerned - with wild throw/whirling axe its easy win . Without them its hard, even more if they're good. Same as before, just with the difference everything that could possibly be said about it was already posted, so people moved on, nothing changed&nothign new. yada yada

One more last thing for Animate. Please, oh mighty one, elaborate on how to rend properly, I always play with nub necs like Pyth.
...
well, pyth is god-mode N anyway, he just rips EDAs.

Vazze · Jul 21, 2009, 04:37 PM // 16:37

@urania, perhaps you should make another thread for eda in TA. Here the whole thing is mixed with replies to the qq of the OP (obviously a warrior from RA/AB). The two things are completely different. This EDA-> rend -> interrupt (disrupting throw, dshot, power drain,ect) -> prevent interrupt (pious, mantra, shield bash, guardian, disciplined etc) sounds interesting.
Also pyth don't need to be godmode:
Server time (ping is 0.2s, reaction time to EDA cast ~0.3s (almost slow)):
0s: derv starts casting EDA on server
0.2s: derv starts casting EDA on your client
0.5s: you hit rip
0.7: you hit rip on server
1.7s: you finish rip on server

0s: derv starts casting EDA on server
0.25s: derv finished casting EDA on server
1.0s: derv starts casting cover enchant (vital boon) on server (IF he can queue cover to eda, otherwise add his ping: 0.2s->1.2s)
2.0s derv finished casting cover enchant (vital boon)

If I am not mistaken you should be able to rip eda easily (not theory, my derv was ripped like that). If you get half cast on rip or derv can't queue cover you don't even need good ping. If derv is using 0.25s cover that sux though. Same if he queues an interrupt instead of cover and he is close.

Lux Aeterna · Jul 21, 2009, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Animate

Warrior sees: Nothing, he is blind. Warrior tries to look: What is blinding me. Warrior finds: Another evil blinding skill! Warrior knows: It must be removed from the game, it must be nerfed to oblivion.

Obviously you don't understand why this skill is overpowered, why I'm not QQing about Bsurge / blind was mingson, and why the warrior is often the smartest + most spatially aware member of a team.

Just take rending touch --> rending touch is useless 99% of the time and I'm not going to waste bar space.

If EDA wasn't overpowered I'd just dchop it and not make a thread.

I Jonas I · Jul 21, 2009, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

Why are you so opposed to a simple 1s cast on EDA?

You think that a 1s cast will make the skill any more balanced? I'm guessing you want to make it so that the skill is interruptable? Since blind only effects melee and increasing the casting time is aimed at allowing interrupts, this change will basically only help melee that have interrupts. In other words: just rangers.

Once your proposed skill change is made you now expect a ranger to be camping a D/P to interrupt the skill that he only has to use once every 30 seconds? OK. Not to mention the fact that THE RANGER WILL BE BLINDED 90% OF THE MATCH ANYWAY. yeah, great skill change idea, bud.

Reverend Dr · Jul 21, 2009, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

If EDA wasn't overpowered I'd just dchop it and not make a thread.

Watch EDA cast -> Count recharge -> Shock -> Qrupt D-chop

urania · Jul 21, 2009, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

Obviously you don't understand why this skill is overpowered, why I'm not QQing about Bsurge / blind was mingson, and why the warrior is often the smartest + most spatially aware member of a team.

Just take rending touch --> rending touch is useless 99% of the time and I'm not going to waste bar space.

If EDA wasn't overpowered I'd just dchop it and not make a thread.

u wouldnt be getting it off with just 1 rend touch anyway.

at Reverend, they'd have to be pretty bad to cast straight after a KD.

Reverend Dr · Jul 22, 2009, 03:39 AM // 03:39

You'd be surprised how many people cast as soon as they get up.

But I really don't understand the issue, build adren (slower, but still possible while blind), hold adren until you can unload it. I mean if the derv stays just on you then dodge spears and the match is now 3v3, if the derv doesn't stay on you, then kill something. Yeah it sucks to play warrior when you constantly get blinded, welcome to guild wars.

There is an argument somewhere that the blind is too easy to reapply and have constantly, but this is less of a "EDA is way OP in 4v4" and more of a power creep issue (steam + glyph Immo, B-surge).