Curse

I Jonas I · Jul 17, 2009, 05:21 PM // 17:21

As soon as people suggest bringing sight beyond sight, I automatically ignore everything else they have to say.

Although with the Corrupt enchantments meta and the abundance of the 2 mind blast, 1 necro lameway builds in TA you'd be pretty stupid to run an EDA D/P there. Considering the build doesn't have much for spike assist and that there is better anti melee in HA and GvG, it isn't really suited for these formats either. So that means it is only really viable in RA. Should you nerf a build because it is only good in RA?

Xsiriss · Jul 17, 2009, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

You have no right to complain about anything balance related if you take a Warrior into random arena, fort aspenwood, or jade quarry.

End of.Warriors can't have a justified presence in unorganised PvP unless they run something OP like a scythe swinging endurer,quit bitching.

GourangaPizza · Jul 17, 2009, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Seen them as a YAA earth ele but they are useless since they are blind, crippled, weakened and KD often. I think necs and mesmers should have an even easier time to deal with them than I would.

EDIT

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Black Mumba

if you manage to divert eda you are a very lucky mesmer.

Who said anything about diversion on being exclusive counter to EDA? You obviously don't know that D/P have to spam attack skills to be effective. For every skill gets diverted is equivalent to eliminating a threat entirely. And I don't see how standard hexes like VOR, empathy, faintheartedness, insidious parasite, blurred vision... will fail against them. Warriors aren't swiss army knife. It's just pure streak of bad luck that you do not get decent midline casters to help you.

Vazze · Jul 17, 2009, 07:35 PM // 19:35

meh, RA warriors! If you want to counter it with melee: plague touch is the best, it shuts down the blinder. The most obvious counter is deep enchant removal with additional strips (necro), watch when EDA is recasted. Fast cast disenchants can remove EDA before it is covered (0.75s aftercast). Air ele blindbot > D/P, same goes for midnight mes. EDA blinders are barbed spear spammers -> diversion.
With that said, they are very efficient blinders, and can easily beat physical heavy RA teams.

urania · Jul 17, 2009, 08:33 PM // 20:33

air eles=softies with ruptable blinds and a 2 sec cast time attunement.
eda paras=not softies and eda is virtually immune to disruption/shutdown (face it, if monks dont have to worry about physicals they will bring loads of hex removal

).
dunno, but in the past i could effectivly run frenzied defense prot monk with divert hexes, a ranger, a scythe fear me warrior and eda PARAGON with no covers for its ench (i covered eda with my prot spirit [lol] and rof) and could still win vs practically everything, even tripple w/d steady stance fear me warr teams with dual rend touch and wild blow...says enough.
you should note how strong eda can be in TA, RA is a trash arena anyway.

The Black Mumba · Jul 17, 2009, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by GourangaPizza

Who said anything about diversion on being exclusive counter to EDA? You obviously don't know that D/P have to spam attack skills to be effective. For every skill gets diverted is equivalent to eliminating a threat entirely. And I don't see how standard hexes like VOR, empathy, faintheartedness, insidious parasite, blurred vision... will fail against them. Warriors aren't swiss army knife. It's just pure streak of bad luck that you do not get decent midline casters to help you.

Of course Diversion work with everything, but mesmers in ra tend to divert other targets (monks and casters in general) before a dervish. And no, a single hex won't stop them doing their work since they can you use energy attacks like maiming spear, disrupting throw or swift javelin and still blind you without dying from empathy.

urania · Jul 17, 2009, 08:45 PM // 20:45

i think it's fairly obvious most players havent ever seen this template in action.
the only drawback, next to rend and Its just a fleshwound paragon is the fact some attacks are adren based, so not available on-demand, and the fact spears can be dodged (unlikely with melee, since their targets will always stick close to the dervish, given the assumption they're not completely stupid) or blocked (effective pretty much only with sins because of their Critical defenses; guardian is only a half-effective solution, mainly because monks will be needing it (if they carry it to start with) to prot party members vs their offensive) and because a 1 sec cast spell is oh-so-easy to d shot by any half competent ranger.

Still Number One · Jul 17, 2009, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Unfortunately I have lost to EDA in GvG before. It was back during the guru tourney and our enchant removal was shatter on our dom mesmer. They had a dervish who used ebon dust aura and a necro who spammed withering aura on the dervish. The whole game all the dervish did was lineback, and although we could open windows and spike him down a few times, he was effective in getting the game to go to VoD where splinter weapon + the dervish = dead balled up NPC's. Nowadays though people bring deep enchant removal and there is no VoD so I don't see it ever being a problem. But back when the only enchant removal people brought was on a dom mes, this was pretty effective at stalling to VoD then farming NPCs.

Then again I'm just bad so whatever.

Jeydra · Jul 18, 2009, 12:35 AM // 00:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

Hmm, well, I really, honestly, sincerely advise anyone, who hasnt played vs a d/p yet to not post their theory opinions on how good/bad it is (particularly Jeydra). It's better than any blinder u can possibly imagine - i have played with its predecessor, a p/d who didnt have any covers for eda, and by covering it with my own enchants, the build could still keep 2-3 physicals blinded EASILY. And I'm not talking about normal blind here...I'm talking about blinds that come with a cover like bleeding or cripple each time. In average about every 2-3 seconds. So, basically, without something like Rend enchantment or ff/draw conditions (even ff can barely upkeep with it now with its 5 recharge), you might as well resign straight off the start.
Mind that I'm not talking about RA here, but about TA. However, the same principle applies for RA too.
The thing that's broken about EDA is that it works on long range weapons - a melee blinder is far less harmful. Moreover, its 1/4 cast time is the worst - skills immune to disruption while at same time having the ability to completely negate certain classes unless you have real counters to it (and face it, with rend and gaze of contempt being nerfed bk to longer cast time there is no real non-elite enchantement removals that can actually guarantee a successful removal) it all comes down to build wars:
- Eda dervs are useless vs eleways, be it MBway or RTLway, and shove spikes, apart from the cripple and stance removal they can pack in
- It's just a fleshwound paragon is basicaly the only non shutdownable (d/p teamsusually dont have humility mesmers around) counter to it. That, or one has to completely rework the necro's bar around it - get plague signet for the daze, rend for eda - fairly useless (in comparison to elites that are more versatile and can be used in virtually all situations - e.g. wail, ce) in any situation apart from one with an EDA derv.

I'll grant you that I have not played the D/P Blindbot before, but I have played against them ... many times. Last I saw they were pretty rare in RA, and I have not seen one in TA (at all), unless it's a team that came from RA.

You touched on several weaknesses, but missed another. They are flat out melee counters that do little against casters. This is a weakness you don't seem to appreciate, because - let me guess - you play only with physicals? You mention this comes down to Build Wars. OK. But what's wrong with that? The team that uses the D/P blindbot takes up the risk that he won't run into physicals, when he'll be pretty useless. I stopped using BSurge myself because I'm so much weaker when there are no physicals. I can't switch to damage mode to help push the other team over the brink. Compare an Ineptitude Mesmer also carrying Wandering Eye, Clumsiness, Spirit of Failure, Reckless Haste and Price of Failure. Devastating against physicals? Yes. Good build? No.

So the D/P Blindbot can shut down 2-3 physicals at the same time. What if there aren't 2-3 physicals? What if there's only one? What if that someone is actively attempting to kite you out of position, running out of your range / putting obstacles between you and him, forcing you to overextend to blind him, etc? What if you are facing Air Elementalists who blind you? What about antimelee hexes? What if there are no physicals?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

So when you say caster hate you mean backfire? Because I honestly can't see any other viable 'caster counters' other than perhaps enchant removal. And without a deep removal you don't have a hope in hell of stripping EDA unless the guy is terrible. As mentioned above, faint isn't a problem to this guy, he's still very capable of dishing out an 8 or 9 second blind every 4 seconds or so under faint, without his IAS up. Insidious isn't so much antimelee as just generic damage. Any time that a martial character has to stop attacking because of it the game is basically over anyway.

There really aren't many viable counters to this guy. The ones theorycrafted by people in this thread really don't work so well in practice.

Nice argument. Now. Have you played the E/Me Mind Blast template and run into a Migraine Mesmer with 6 interrupts? Then you'll be like, oh my god I'm running this overpowered template and I can't even cast anything and I'm degen'ing to death and oh my god NERF PLEASE!!! (and please don't mention faking him out because he's got 6 interrupts)

Quoting Aera above: Please tell me how you fail at warrior if you're facing the exact counter to you.

The EDA Derv is a straight out counter to physical templates. Of course it's meant to be effective. If it's not effective, then the entire template will die. If you're a Warrior and already facing an EDA Derv, there are things you can do to minimize his effectiveness, but you can't shrug him off completely and act as though he's not there. Of course not.

But for your benefit I'll give you a more thorough list of counters to this guy.

1. Blind the Derv. Lots of sources of Blind available, and if he has Remedy Signet then you can cover with some other condition.
2. Block the attacks. Not always possible but reduces his effectiveness (slows his adrenaline gain too).
3. Hex the Derv. Blurred Vision. Reckless Haste. Ineptitude. Etc.
4. Take off his enchantments. Rend Enchants. Strip Enchant. Even single-target enchant removal can remove EDA, or force him to recast his enchantments often, which reduces Blind output.
5. Remove Blind. Spotless Soul in particular comes to mind. Other kinds of condition removal can still screw him up if he's trying to shut down more than one physical at once.
6. Dodge / obstruct his attacks.
7. 40% Blind reduction.
8. KD the Derv.
9. Spike the Derv with a shadowstep if he lets up for a moment.
10. Play something other than a physical. All you got to do is hit F12 -> Character select.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lux Aeterna

Blindbot has ended my streak every single time I've run into it, and unlike blinding surge / flash it seems OP and kind of exploitive, hence posting a thread about.

Dedicated anticasters, like the Migraine Mesmer with 6 interrupts above, or Rangers with Antidote Signet (= cannot be overpowered with BFlash) intent on DShot'ing BFlash, or even someone who gets lucky and DShots BFlash through Blind, etc, have ended my streaks before too. Playing caster and getting camped by dedicated anticaster is just as bad as playing melee and getting camped by dedicated antimelee. Fortunately for me though, since all the melee counters get nerfed so much, and since melee damage is so much more dangerous than caster damage, antimelee is a lot more common than anticaster.

Bowstring Badass · Jul 18, 2009, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Plague Touch or if you wanna be lame Rending Touch. :/

Revelations · Jul 18, 2009, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'll grant you that I have not played the D/P Blindbot before

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

But for your benefit I'll give you a more thorough list of counters to this guy.

1. Blind the Derv. Lots of sources of Blind available, and if he has Remedy Signet then you can cover with some other condition.
2. Block the attacks. Not always possible but reduces his effectiveness (slows his adrenaline gain too).
3. Hex the Derv. Blurred Vision. Reckless Haste. Ineptitude. Etc.
4. Take off his enchantments. Rend Enchants. Strip Enchant. Even single-target enchant removal can remove EDA, or force him to recast his enchantments often, which reduces Blind output.
5. Remove Blind. Spotless Soul in particular comes to mind. Other kinds of condition removal can still screw him up if he's trying to shut down more than one physical at once.
6. Dodge / obstruct his attacks.
7. 40% Blind reduction.
8. KD the Derv.
9. Spike the Derv with a shadowstep if he lets up for a moment.
10. Play something other than a physical. All you got to do is hit F12 -> Character select.

This is exactly what I was talking about. Theorycraft much? Go and play the template before you try to suggest counters to it. Also, if you don't play TA enough to know the meta, then don't even comment on a TA bar.

GourangaPizza · Jul 18, 2009, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Black Mumba

Of course Diversion work with everything, but mesmers in ra tend to divert other targets (monks and casters in general) before a dervish. And no, a single hex won't stop them doing their work since they can you use energy attacks like maiming spear, disrupting throw or swift javelin and still blind you without dying from empathy.

Run a midline caster. If you have not done so, do it now. Seriously.

Jeydra · Jul 18, 2009, 08:41 AM // 08:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

This is exactly what I was talking about. Theorycraft much? Go and play the template before you try to suggest counters to it. Also, if you don't play TA enough to know the meta, then don't even comment on a TA bar.

Guys I got a new build

W/Mo

Riposte
Barbarous Slice
Final Thrust
Power Attack
Deadly Riposte
Renew Life
Restore Life
Healing Breeze

This build is soooooo good! Like, so good, I can tank the entire enemy team with Riposte and Deadly Riposte and my two hard resses means my teammates don't stay dead and eventually the enemy team dies and wowowowow and Power Attack + Final Thrust does big damage wowowow GOOD BUILD.

*****

Tell me what you think of the build above. I'll pre-empt you though. No matter what you say, I'll say you haven't tried the build out, so you can't critique it, or suggest counters to it, or suggest improvements to it, or say anything about it, before you play it in AB, JQ, FA, HA, HB, GvG, RA and TA.

I don't have to play the D/P myself to know what it's capable of. I've played against it sufficiently many times to know, and yes, including times when I played a physical. I also have enough sense to know what counters the build. If this is the best argument you can come up with, then I'll just say cry more, yours is just another "but my War + Magebane + Foul Feast + Monk combo should be able to beat every other TA build" argument in disguise.

Revelations · Jul 18, 2009, 08:58 AM // 08:58

I could care less that standard TA 'balanced' is subject to as much buildwars as everything else. What I do care about is the ridiculous paper-scissors-rock that such spammable blind can cause.

Also, the ridiculous tangent which you're willing to go down to try and negate a valid point made by another poster further proves your lack of knowledge on the subject. Honestly, just stop posting please.

Jeydra · Jul 18, 2009, 09:09 AM // 09:09

Obviously you could care more that standard TA balanced is subject to buildwars, because you're here claiming it's overpowered, even though the counters to this build are flexible enough to use against many other builds.

I went down this tangent because you claimed I don't have experience with the build. I was musing challenging you on that actually, but then eventually decided not to because arguments are won by reason, not who you are. You're welcome to keep claiming I lack experience with the build, I'll simply ignore you.

GourangaPizza · Jul 18, 2009, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Nobody is theorycrafting. The fact is apparent by now that there are too many physicals out there if these gimmick counter builds are so 'powerful'. Stop rolling as a physical for the time being and run as a midline caster in RA and you will see how easily they can be put out of commission.

xDementia · Jul 18, 2009, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

But for your benefit I'll give you a more thorough list of counters to this guy.

1. Blind the Derv. Lots of sources of Blind available, and if he has Remedy Signet then you can cover with some other condition.
2. Block the attacks. Not always possible but reduces his effectiveness (slows his adrenaline gain too).
3. Hex the Derv. Blurred Vision. Reckless Haste. Ineptitude. Etc.
4. Take off his enchantments. Rend Enchants. Strip Enchant. Even single-target enchant removal can remove EDA, or force him to recast his enchantments often, which reduces Blind output.
5. Remove Blind. Spotless Soul in particular comes to mind. Other kinds of condition removal can still screw him up if he's trying to shut down more than one physical at once.
6. Dodge / obstruct his attacks.
7. 40% Blind reduction.
8. KD the Derv.
9. Spike the Derv with a shadowstep if he lets up for a moment.
10. Play something other than a physical. All you got to do is hit F12 -> Character select.

1. See #7 he can carry 40% blind reduction as well
2. Swift javelin is not uncommon. Ease of switching targets
3. Works
4. Removing/interrupting enchants doesn't have as much of an effect compared to what it does to an air ele. His enchants have fast activation, 5 energy enchants are almost free because of mysticism, some of them recharge faster than common enchant removal does...
5. A D/P can blind with a frequency that overpowers pretty much any condition removal in the game except for Pnh or Avatar of Melandru obviously. The point is that you can blind as fast and as soon as your attack skills recharge/activate... how hard is it to understand a 2 adrenaline attack with an ias skill that causes bleeding, opens for cripple and on the top of that causes covered blindness might feel overpowered?
6. Yeah that works too
7. See point 5
8. A blind warrior can't kd reliably. Shock/Iron Palm sure go ahead.
9. Good luck. He is permanently on shield set and his cover enchant can serve as a defensive skill too
10. Yeah RPS. Bleeding+Cripple on everyone seems useless but it helps your team offensively and defensively in many situations.

On a side note I doubt that template is going to be of any use as long as Me/N is meta in GvG

Ex Death · Jul 18, 2009, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Jeydra is correct in that it shouldn't be nerfed because it counters whatever is deemed as a 'balanced build' in TA (1 warrior, 1 ranger, 1 necro, 1 monk - nice joke). This alone, however, doesn't necessarily mean that Ebon Dust Aura is not overpowered. The skill required for an extremely effective result is minimal and this is pretty much the only solid argument for it being overpowered. So a shorter blind duration, and/or changing it to melee only would improve it slightly.

Bear in mind, however, that pvp is balanced for GvG and this skill is an easy counter for build wars, as well as being easy to counter itself. This is the main reason why no one uses it in GvG although it could be devastating in a mat final when it won't be expected. Skills like this make gvg builds interesting despite the skill, itself, requiring hardly any skill to play it in its current form.

Mad Lord of Milk · Jul 18, 2009, 03:56 PM // 15:56

EDA has a long recast and it is an enchantment, making it easily removable. That's why the skill isn't overpowered, and that's why it won't be nerfed.

Bobby2 · Jul 18, 2009, 05:14 PM // 17:14

Except it's covered by loads of shit. A small hit to the recharge of Vital Boon (and perhaps to EDA's own casting time) would make a big difference.