Curse

Tiyuri · Jan 14, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

With the changes coming to HA, it looks as though a lot of players may drop in to take a look, a lot of those players wont be able to find teams and so I decided to write a guide on doing so.

This is a thread for all those people who have trouble breaking into HA and the competitive PVP environment. It seems to me that a lot of myth, rumour and general whining often circulates regarding HA, especially by those people who've been unable to get involved. This thread aims to aid those people and hopefully lower the number of whiny discrimination posts cluttering up the forum.

So you've killed countless Charr, but never another player:

Then HA is not for you, yet. The first thing you want to do is wet your feet in the random arenas. Here you can run any build you want to. Play long enough and you'll begin to learn what does and doesn't work. You'll begin to see which builds stand out as efficient, you'll gain some faction and you'll begin to see how different a PVP environment is to a PVE environment. The most important lesson to be learnt here, is that you're effectively playing a completely different game and being good at one does not make you good at the other.

So you're an RA Champion! Busting out the glad points like nobodies business:

Then you're ready to TA. Where as RA rewards players with the ability to pick out efficient skills with some synergy, TA rewards a synergy and communication between characters. It's your first step into organised PVP, good teams will tell YOU which skills to take. It's the team leaders choice now, not yours. This is because your build needs to work with the rest of the builds on the team. You'll need to start learning the popular character builds, why they're popular, how to play them and what skills you're required to unlock.

TA is where PVP as a whole begins to get competitive, and thus rewards those players who put in the time and effort to learn the metagame, learn the popular builds, learn their counters. etc.

If you really want to get into the PVP side of things, I suggest you begin leading your own teams. Don't stick to one build that works for you, learn how to play all professions, mix things up. If you're going to be a team leader you're going to need to know how everyone's build works, not just your own. It's those players with the ability to lead who really go places.

So you're a Rank 3 gladiator! Why won't those tools let me play HA!

Because HA is a whole new ball game.

The first thing to do when starting out in HA, is to realise that it has its own mechanics. It's not TA, it's certainly not RA and so your experience in those areas - whilst obviously a good thing in terms of learning the basics of PVP - means jack. It's time to set aside your pride, your rank 3 gladiator title, your protector of Tyria title. You need to get into the mindset to learn. You aren't going to achieve a shiny emote straight away. It requires some dedication.

The new HA player has 3 options.

Join unranked groups.
Attempt to Join ranked groups.
Or form their own groups.

The first thing I suggest you do is forget option 1. We all know unranked groups are a train wreck waiting to happen, let's not pretend otherwise. Sure there are SOME good players out there without a rank, but those are a minority. Being good at GVG/TA/RA as we discussed, does not make you good at HA and thus those are not the people you want to learn from. So how do we go about attempting options 2 and 3?

Joining Ranked Groups

Talk the Talk - First of all, you want to sound intelligent and well spoken. A lot of ranked groups don't actually care about a players rank, they limit themselves to ranked players in an attempt to avoid idiots. So Don't sound like one. Learn to spell, learn some grammar and some manners.
Don't Lie - If a team asks what rank you are, tell them the truth. If you lie and make stupid mistakes, you'll be booted and certainly won't be added to any friends lists. Whilst a lot of teams are very unforgiving towards the unranked player there are also a lot of understanding teams out there. If you're intelligent and respectful they'll help you out and tell you what you need to improve on.
Learn how to advertise yourself correctly - First of all, ranked groups are used to playing with players who are capable of playing any role, they have most skills unlocked and will spec to any role in the team if they have to. Thus advertising yourself as "A shock warrior LFG" makes you sound inexperienced off the bat. Advertise yourself as a player or a profession, not a specific build. Second, ranked groups assume you have vent/TS/etc, don't advertise yourself as having them, it absolutely stinks of desperation. Keep it short and elegant. "Experienced Monk looking to gain experience with a ranked team" or similar.
Don't be afraid to ask for help - Responding to an add with "I'm not rank 6 but I have a great deal of experience as an X" and asking if they could help you learn the maps isn't a bad idea. There are some real tools out there who'll tell you to f-off you unranked noob. But those aren't the players you want to play with anyway and if anything those players are probably the people who IWAYed their rank 6. You need thick skin, but keep trying.
Spend a lot of time in observer - You need to know what builds are popular right now, and you need the skills unlocked to play them. You need the variations of those builds unlocked also, and you shouldn't expect to stay in a ranked team if you don't have a skill they require.
Do not spam players who ignore you - Some people who advertise for rank 6+ people or r9+ people want just that, no exceptions. Sometimes when asking for r6+ players team leaders are whispered by 10~ unranked players asking for a shot. Expecting them to respond to every single person is a bit much.

Starting your own Groups

This has to be the best way around the rank requirements of HA, no one asks the group leaders rank, so as long as you are competent enough you can pretty much pick up players of any rank. However ranked players have enough experienced to spot a leader who doesn't know what he's doing from a mile away. Good teams are lead, they aren't a giant democracy, and if you're going to go down this route you need to do that leading.

You need to know the build you propose to run inside out, you need to know the skills on every characters bar, you need to know what you plan to do on every map. Make sure you check out articles on Guildwiki and similar on the objectives of each map, observe them, observe other people playing the build you are going to use, see how they attempt to play it.

Whilst playing a gimmick build will aid you in finding players FASTER, the quality of those players will probably be lower. A lot of Rank 9+ players are no longer concerned about rank or gaining fame and are instead looking for builds that are innovative or fun to play. Not only that but you might actually learn something if you're not spamming searing flames or "Fear me!".

Whilst leading a team be prepared to Speak non stop on vent, there's no hiding in the back here, occasionally calling out "blind on 3", it's your job to direct the team now. Tell it where and how to move, where to throw up wards, where to throw its damage, and so on. You've got to be confident to do this but its potentially the fastest way to a rank and the fastest way of getting some really good players on your friendlist.

Going Further:

So you've got into some nice groups, taken halls a few times, maybe earned rank 3 and a shiny dear emote. But you want to go further, you want to aim higher, you want a big shiny tiger.

You need to either find an HA guild or build up a good friends list of players you're impressed with. If you're a strong leader you could lead your own HA guild and that allows you to be selective about the talent you bring along.

I would suggest against using names like "Holy knight of Tyria" or some other ridiculous PVE name. You want to make a name for yourself and so people need to know what to call you. Not to mention the fact that you don't want to sound like an instant PVE nub when attempting to join a ranked team.

Be social, don't hide in the corner of every vent server you join, be vocal and friendly. You want people to enjoy playing with you and invite you over other people. Contribute to the team, suggest strat and so on. Making good friends makes good fame.

Do not go to HA if:

You don't have a good amount of skills unlocked.
You're an idiot.
Your spelling is atrocious.
You are unable to use ventrilo
You take rude comments to heart
You plan to post retarded threads on the forums regarding how some guy didn't accept you into their group and rank means nothing.

Peace

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Jan 14, 2007, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Good thread even though I skipped it. ^HE SPEAKS THE TRUTH!

phasola · Jan 14, 2007, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Do not go to HA if:
You don't have a good amount of skills unlocked.
You're an idiot.
Your spelling is atrocious.
You are unable to use ventrilo
You take rude comments to heart
You plan to post retarded threads on the forums regarding how some guy didn't except you into their group and rank means nothing.

HA would be empty if people would do these

.

llsektorll · Jan 14, 2007, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Its almost going to be two years.... its about time someone wrote this PLEASE MAKE THIS A STICKY AND HAVE IT ON THE MAIN SITE AS A GUIDE!!

It's very hard to get into HA and GvG but once you do you'll realize why GW is the better than most games... this game thrives on teamwork and thats why it is so good.

One more thing I could add to the beautiful guide is that this game is all about who you know... know the right poeple and you'll excel at a significantly faster rate... this is easier said than done so keep an open mind and update your friends list with people that will get to places and not only with ones that are your friend... and remove friends that havn't been online for months because those kinds of friends will only hold you down in your potential in PvP.

iya · Jan 14, 2007, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Thank you for starting this thread. This has given me a totally different insight to HA and has inspired me to take a new approach to it. cheers.

gasmaskman · Jan 14, 2007, 10:32 PM // 22:32

I suggest this post be stickied.

Nice post.

Nurse With Wound · Jan 15, 2007, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Awesome guide Tiyuri! I hope everyone reads this before crying to anet that he's being discriminated.

Also, sticky.

Taken · Jan 15, 2007, 07:37 AM // 07:37

I enjoyed this post; sticky please.

I disagreed only with the part about names. I think you can use any name you like, with the caveat that a name that suggests that you are 11 will get you groups of 11 year olds (think sexual and scatological references here). However, I suggest that you pick a name for your PvP toon and stick with it, at least until you have built your friends list. If you are named "Leah Stormbringer" today and "Top Hat" tomorrow, there is no way that people will realize that you are the same person unless you are already on their friends list.

jana_the_stranger · Jan 17, 2007, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

Do not go to HA if:

You don't have a good amount of skills unlocked.
You're an idiot.
Your spelling is atrocious.
You are unable to use ventrilo
You take rude comments to heart
You plan to post retarded threads on the forums regarding how some guy didn't accept you into their group and rank means nothing.

Peace

when you dont have enough time

and you forgot teamspeak

btw: ventrilo is useless when no-one has a mic

king_robin · Jan 17, 2007, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Wow Nice job man.. This post ROCKS!!!

Tiyuri · Jan 17, 2007, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by jana_the_stranger

when you dont have enough time

and you forgot teamspeak

btw: ventrilo is useless when no-one has a mic

99% of teamspeak servers I've ever joined have absolutely APPALLING sound quality that make me QQ until I quit the group.

Never use TS imo

Divineshadows · Jan 17, 2007, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Excellent composition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiyuri

So you've killed countless Charr, but never another player:

Then HA is not for you, yet. The first thing you want to do is wet your feet in the random arenas. Here you can run any build you want to. Play long enough and you'll begin to learn what does and doesn't work. You'll begin to see which builds stand out as efficient, you'll gain some faction and you'll begin to see how different a PVP environment is to a PVE environment. The most important lesson to be learnt here, is that you're effectively playing a completely different game and being good at one does not make you good at the other.

So you're an RA Champion! Busting out the glad points like nobodies business:

Then you're ready to TA. Where as RA rewards players with the ability to pick out efficient skills with some synergy, TA rewards a synergy and communication between characters. It's your first step into organised PVP, good teams will tell YOU which skills to take.

If you really want to get into the PVP side of things, I suggest you begin leading your own teams. Don't stick to one build that works for you, learn how to play all professions, mix things up. If you're going to be a team leader you're going to need to know how everyone's build works, not just your own. It's those players with the ability to lead who really go places.

So you're a Rank 3 gladiator! Why won't those tools let me play HA!

Because HA is a whole new ball game.

The first thing to do when starting out in HA, is to realise that it has its own mechanics.

The new HA player has options.

Or form their own groups.
[*]Spend a lot of time in observer - You need to know what builds are popular right now, and you need the skills unlocked to play them. You need the variations of those builds unlocked also, and you shouldn't expect to stay in a ranked team if you don't have a skill they require.

This progression is exactly how I began in PvP and I feel that it is quite a nice formula for players to follow when moving from PvE to PvP or even for those that just bought the game solely for PvP. I spent a bit of time learning to boon prot monk first in RA. Around this time, I also joined some unranked teams in HA just to see what it was like and, well, those teams lost a lot more often than they won and were always quick to disband. Then I moved on to TA and began to build up a friends list. Shortly after, I started forming my own teams in TA and calling tactics.

Next, I had recruited enough players into The Zerglings that we began to GvG. Discontent happened between two groups of players -- those that cared about winning and guild rating and those that cared about having "fun" and being able to participate. I formed a new guild called There Is No Cow Level [cow] (a reference to the Starcraft cheat code) with a mission to move ever upward on the GvG ladder and the serious PvP players followed me.

Things didn't go as planned and I found it was very difficult to get 8 players together at the same time for GvG matches. As a result, we'd have a paltry 25 to 40 matches in each given ladder season, but the players that did meet at times previously specified were still wanting to play so we went to HA where we could always PUG one to three players. In order to make our HA matches more enjoyable through increased winning, I studied the metagame from reading HA guru forums (observer mode didn't exist yet) and began designing balanced builds loosely based on other ones I had read from the forums. I called match tactics as a monk. We started to win halls often and won a vast majority of matches on the way to halls with ease. In a five to six week span, all of the guild members had gone from rank 0 to rank 6.

The third ladder season opened and we lost three straight matches (2 of the teams we lost to were quite bad and the other was [Te]). I had come to the realization that my guild had veered completely off course of where I wanted it to be, so I kicked all members and officers and then disbanded the guild. One of the officers kindly asked me if he could make a guild by the name, There Is A Cow Level [cow], since all the HA teams/guilds always thought the guild name was a reference to Diablo and we always had to explain that it was a Starcraft reference instead. I told him I had no problem with this since I was guildless at the time, looking to join a GvG guild, and had no personal reservations about the name.

The main point of my story was to provide a case study that confirms Tiyuri's advice of following a natural progression in PvP.

Tiyuri, one point you missed in your "Do not go to HA if" list was:

You intend to use a PvE character unless you have spent a ton of money decking that character out with all the vital skills and best weapon sets with the best mods (i.e. +30 health, +20% enchanting, etc.). Telling your group, "Hold on, I need to go buy that skill", is a good way to get yourself kicked. Just simply things and use a PvP character.

tomcruisejr · Jan 18, 2007, 01:02 AM // 01:02

the title is misleading. i expected contents like

1) Fighting to HoH or Waiting for the Skip
2) Interrupting Ghostly Part I
3) Interrupting Ghostly Part II
4) Interrupting Ghostly Part III

and so on.

good article nonetheless.

Tiyuri · Jan 18, 2007, 02:03 AM // 02:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

the title is misleading. i expected contents like

1) Fighting to HoH or Waiting for the Skip
2) Interrupting Ghostly Part I
3) Interrupting Ghostly Part II
4) Interrupting Ghostly Part III

and so on.

good article nonetheless.

I was considering going into the mechanics of various maps, but for all we know they could change completely come this weekend.

Appreciate the kind words all.

Apple · Jan 18, 2007, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Something I didnt see but would really, really like to add. Correct me if it's already in there. Don't look for groups in non-international districts, the player quality there is lower than enemies in pve.

Thom Bangalter · Jan 18, 2007, 04:12 AM // 04:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divineshadows

This progression is exactly how I began in PvP and I feel that it is quite a nice formula for players to follow when moving from PvE to PvP or even for those that just bought the game solely for PvP. I spent a bit of time learning to boon prot monk first in RA. Around this time, I also joined some unranked teams in HA just to see what it was like and, well, those teams lost a lot more often than they won and were always quick to disband. Then I moved on to TA and began to build up a friends list. Shortly after, I started forming my own teams in TA and calling tactics.

Next, I had recruited enough players into The Zerglings that we began to GvG. Discontent happened between two groups of players -- those that cared about winning and guild rating and those that cared about having "fun" and being able to participate. I formed a new guild called There Is No Cow Level [cow] (a reference to the Starcraft cheat code) with a mission to move ever upward on the GvG ladder and the serious PvP players followed me.

Things didn't go as planned and I found it was very difficult to get 8 players together at the same time for GvG matches. As a result, we'd have a paltry 25 to 40 matches in each given ladder season, but the players that did meet at times previously specified were still wanting to play so we went to HA where we could always PUG one to three players. In order to make our HA matches more enjoyable through increased winning, I studied the metagame from reading HA guru forums (observer mode didn't exist yet) and began designing balanced builds loosely based on other ones I had read from the forums. I called match tactics as a monk. We started to win halls often and won a vast majority of matches on the way to halls with ease. In a five to six week span, all of the guild members had gone from rank 0 to rank 6.

The third ladder season opened and we lost three straight matches (2 of the teams we lost to were quite bad and the other was [Te]). I had come to the realization that my guild had veered completely off course of where I wanted it to be, so I kicked all members and officers and then disbanded the guild. One of the officers kindly asked me if he could make a guild by the name, There Is A Cow Level [cow], since all the HA teams/guilds always thought the guild name was a reference to Diablo and we always had to explain that it was a Starcraft reference instead. I told him I had no problem with this since I was guildless at the time, looking to join a GvG guild, and had no personal reservations about the name.

The main point of my story was to provide a case study that confirms Tiyuri's advice of following a natural progression in PvP.

Tiyuri, one point you missed in your "Do not go to HA if" list was:

You intend to use a PvE character unless you have spent a ton of money decking that character out with all the vital skills and best weapon sets with the best mods (i.e. +30 health, +20% enchanting, etc.). Telling your group, "Hold on, I need to go buy that skill", is a good way to get yourself kicked. Just simply things and use a PvP character.

I just want to go over things to reinforce your point. RA-->TA--->HA---->GvG is the progression I too went in. You get your feet wet in RA trying out templates, testing things out. Although, I never spent anywhere the amount of time in TA that you did, shadows. Although the player quality there on a good team can be solid, and you learn skill usage in team based enviornments and that's a very good thing.

Seriously though, once you think you have a feel for things in TA on how common bars work, jump right into HA if you're after the emote. You meet a lot of people, can join some guilds that you can learn from, dip your feet into gvg, and realize how bad HA is. I could go through a similar case study on how I progressed to the pretty decent position I'm at today.

however, I disagree with one thing: if you have 15k armor and perfect weapons, you should definetly use pve characters, because looking good>playing good. mirite?

beanerman_99 · Jan 18, 2007, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Question- kind of addressed but would like more insite

Some background...I'm a long time PvE'r and have dabbled in some PVP like Fort Aspenwood and Random Arenas. My main toon, an ele and one class I love most to play, has unlock many many many skills and I have capped 180 elites whit her as well. My armor and weapons are set up for using the Fire line of skills.

So I want to get more into PvP, should I make a PvP character each time I want to play? Do I take my pve character to team areas and say I can make whatever class is needed and then say BRB? What is the easiest way to do this?

My guild consists of 3 people. Needless to say we don't GvG. Whats the best way to get into GvG and at the same time say "I don't have much experience in GvG and would like someone to teach me". That's asking a lot from people, to take time out of their playing to teach me the ropes. Ya, I can read all about it here on the forums...but for me doing is learning.

PvP can be a tough nut to crack and difficult to get into. I know it takes a lot of work on my part but sometimes players like me need someone to "take them under their wing" so to speak, and teach them the ropes.

I think that so few people here are willing to do that though. You know, lots of people like to complain about the how stupid other players are and to call them noobs and cry about the basic state of the game. There are countless threads about it here. So I ask you all, are you part of the solution or part of the problem? Do you help "noobs" out or do you just ignore them? If more people, ranked or not, would take the time to teach those that are willing to listen, I think more people would come over to the PvP side and make this game even better

Tiyuri · Jan 18, 2007, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by beanerman_99

So I want to get more into PvP, should I make a PvP character each time I want to play? Do I take my pve character to team areas and say I can make whatever class is needed and then say BRB? What is the easiest way to do this?

The way this works basically, is you join a pug, the leader will give you a ventrilo address to join before you leave to reroll, so you don't lose contact, and then you do indeed go and roll a PVP character.

Using PVE characters is fine, IF (and only if) that PVE character is perfect. People want perfect armour, perfect runes, perfect equipment and you'll need it on your ele if you want to use your PVE ele in PVP. Also if you don't have a skill on your PVE ele that the group needs, you should be prepared to buy it or reroll.

The constant rerolling is somewhat annoying at first, but with templates it's not so bad anymore.

Quote:

I think that so few people here are willing to do that though. (help the newbies out) You know, lots of people like to complain about the how stupid other players are and to call them noobs and cry about the basic state of the game. There are countless threads about it here. So I ask you all, are you part of the solution or part of the problem? Do you help "noobs" out or do you just ignore them? If more people, ranked or not, would take the time to teach those that are willing to listen, I think more people would come over to the PvP side and make this game even better

Yea a lot of players are like that. But generally the people who call other people "noobs" in a derogatory way are pretty bad players themselves. Most of the pretty good players are capable of realising that they too at one time were inexperienced, and some will help you out, although it can be hard to find them.

Teaching new players the basics is actually not so hard, and I urge other experienced players to do it, once people know the basics, they can pretty much learn the rest on their own over time. It's just breaking in there in the first place that's the difficult bit.

Helcaraxe · Jan 18, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by beanerman_99

Question- kind of addressed but would like more insite

Some background...I'm a long time PvE'r and have dabbled in some PVP like Fort Aspenwood and Random Arenas. My main toon, an ele and one class I love most to play, has unlock many many many skills and I have capped 180 elites whit her as well. My armor and weapons are set up for using the Fire line of skills.

So I want to get more into PvP, should I make a PvP character each time I want to play? Do I take my pve character to team areas and say I can make whatever class is needed and then say BRB? What is the easiest way to do this?

My guild consists of 3 people. Needless to say we don't GvG. Whats the best way to get into GvG and at the same time say "I don't have much experience in GvG and would like someone to teach me". That's asking a lot from people, to take time out of their playing to teach me the ropes. Ya, I can read all about it here on the forums...but for me doing is learning.

PvP can be a tough nut to crack and difficult to get into. I know it takes a lot of work on my part but sometimes players like me need someone to "take them under their wing" so to speak, and teach them the ropes.

I think that so few people here are willing to do that though. You know, lots of people like to complain about the how stupid other players are and to call them noobs and cry about the basic state of the game. There are countless threads about it here. So I ask you all, are you part of the solution or part of the problem? Do you help "noobs" out or do you just ignore them? If more people, ranked or not, would take the time to teach those that are willing to listen, I think more people would come over to the PvP side and make this game even better

Honestly, the best way to start is by reading. Read the state of the game articles, browse the forums, etc... Next step is simply to talk with someone who has alot of PvP experience (I offer a one hour class, that will get you beyond most players). Then like the OP said, you can talk the talk, and people will believe that you can walk the walk. If you get the chance to join a good group then you can learn so much just by being in the same game as them. Listen to the communication on ventrilo, pay attention to what is important enough to be called.

Most of Guild Wars PvP is skill swapping. It's realizing what skills are being used at the current time and figuring out how best to counter them. And then someone devises a counter for your counter. And so on and so on. The beautiful thing about this game is that there is no skill, not even one, that does not have a counter of some sort.

beanerman_99 · Jan 18, 2007, 09:03 PM // 21:03

thanks for the feedback guys. I hope to get my PvP feet wet soon. Maybe, in the near future, you'll see me in an arena kicking butt and taking names