Curse

lutz · Jun 04, 2009, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

And seriously, stop advising counters like warrs cunning and rigor - its ridiculous to read it. Let's bring tripple purge sig and divert hexes with deny and spotless too while we're at it, for those nasty hexways, right?
Might as well say "its np, u can divert or magebane mindblast"

on a side note, why would cripple matter if they dont have to nor need to kite from physicals to start with?

Cripple matters because casters can kill things too.

And you're right, because "all your attacks are unblockable" or "target foe cannot block" is absolutely useless in every single other situation other than Distortion Mind Blast elementalists.

It's not like hammer warriors have a flexible slot on their bar. And it's not like rangers have a flexible slot on their bar. And it's not like both monks bring Guardian and block stances, and flaggers bring Warding, and rangers bring Lightning Reflexes/Natural Stride (sometimes both), and (smart) VoR mesmers bring Distortion. I mean, it's like the meta has absolutely no block in it!

Oh wait...

What euros are looking for now is a way to play 8v8 stand as much as possible and push the stand team in while defending the split as minimally as possible. Unfortunately, this isn't possible with fire eles anymore. You can't simply send back the runner to deal with the split, and an additional warrior to kill the split anymore. And they don't want to bring skills that affect their 8v8 stand play.

Just because this new build opened up split to be a more viable template doesn't mean that it's incredibly imbalanced. Sure, the fire ele could use some fine tuning - parts of it are a little ridiculous - but Distortion isn't the center of the problem. In my opinion, it has to do more with the fact that the fire ele is able to spec 10 into Illusion and still afford self heals, utility (Gale, and to a small extent Meteor) and strong energy management and damage.

I Angra I · Jun 04, 2009, 10:57 PM // 22:57

I think I already posted in this thread awhile back but the problem with the mind blast template is that it never runs out of energy, ever, no matter what. That's what makes it so powerful and able to use all the skills on its bar. Skills like rodgort's and meteor are 25e and cause exhaustion, respectively, for a reason; the same as distortion takes away energy upon block for a reason. For a template to be able to completely bypass the drawbacks to powerful skills like that is what makes it so strong.

M'Aiq The Liar · Jun 05, 2009, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by drkn

sure, nerf mesmers because eles abuse their skills.
eles make the problem, eles suffer from the problem solved - that's the way. i know mesmers that use distortion from time to time for a whole variance of reasons, main of them being fun.

Funny thing is, this wouldn't the first time Distortion's been nerfed due to another profession using it. And certainly not the first time that's happened to a mesmer skill.

lutz · Jun 05, 2009, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

I think I already posted in this thread awhile back but the problem with the mind blast template is that it never runs out of energy, ever, no matter what. That's what makes it so powerful and able to use all the skills on its bar. Skills like rodgort's and meteor are 25e and cause exhaustion, respectively, for a reason; the same as distortion takes away energy upon block for a reason. For a template to be able to completely bypass the drawbacks to powerful skills like that is what makes it so strong.

Strip its attune and aura, and watch it try to pump skills.

TironPlyth · Jun 05, 2009, 05:45 AM // 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by M'Aiq The Liar

Funny thing is, this wouldn't the first time Distortion's been nerfed due to another profession using it. And certainly not the first time that's happened to a mesmer skill.

Funny thing is, half the balance problems in this game develop from secondary profession abuse (*cough* Fast Casting *cough*). It's nothing unique to Distortion, or Mesmers.

Jeydra · Jun 05, 2009, 06:43 AM // 06:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

So again how is it not easily the better of the split templates in the current meta?

Well it is, almost every split character on Obs right now is some kind of Fire Elementalist (E/Me or E/D). Doesn't mean it's overpowered though, it could equally mean every other option is underpowered. My original post was in response to Vanquisher's argument that the template has easy access to everything that makes a split character work: it clearly doesn't have everything, and has given up on some things as listed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

I think I already posted in this thread awhile back but the problem with the mind blast template is that it never runs out of energy, ever, no matter what. That's what makes it so powerful and able to use all the skills on its bar. Skills like rodgort's and meteor are 25e and cause exhaustion, respectively, for a reason; the same as distortion takes away energy upon block for a reason. For a template to be able to completely bypass the drawbacks to powerful skills like that is what makes it so strong.

Not all E/Me bars have Rodgort's Invocation (typically have to give up Res Sig for that); actually most I've seen do not. Meteor's exhaustion isn't going to matter much either, unless you are fake-casting. It cools down in 30 seconds, after which the exhaustion would've worn off. Exhaustion is also completely different to infinite energy. Give a Mind Blast template Gale and he still can't spam Gale forever, he will exhaust himself.

Also come to think of it it isn't that hard to spam Fire skills on recharge - instead of Mind Blast, run Glowing Gaze + 12 Energy Storage and you should be fine. The limiting factor then becomes the lack of a fast-recharging Fire spell you can use (Flare doesn't count), although it does free up your elite. Nonetheless trying to make a different bar runs into the immediate problem in that you don't have enough spots on the bar. Flame Djinn's, Fire Attune, Aura of Resto, Res Sig, Immolate, Meteor and you only have 2 more spots to use, one of which must be energy management.

urania · Jun 05, 2009, 08:52 AM // 08:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Cripple matters because casters can kill things too.

And you're right, because "all your attacks are unblockable" or "target foe cannot block" is absolutely useless in every single other situation other than Distortion Mind Blast elementalists.

It's not like hammer warriors have a flexible slot on their bar. And it's not like rangers have a flexible slot on their bar. And it's not like both monks bring Guardian and block stances, and flaggers bring Warding, and rangers bring Lightning Reflexes/Natural Stride (sometimes both), and (smart) VoR mesmers bring Distortion. I mean, it's like the meta has absolutely no block in it!

Oh wait...

What euros are looking for now is a way to play 8v8 stand as much as possible and push the stand team in while defending the split as minimally as possible. Unfortunately, this isn't possible with fire eles anymore. You can't simply send back the runner to deal with the split, and an additional warrior to kill the split anymore. And they don't want to bring skills that affect their 8v8 stand play.

Just because this new build opened up split to be a more viable template doesn't mean that it's incredibly imbalanced. Sure, the fire ele could use some fine tuning - parts of it are a little ridiculous - but Distortion isn't the center of the problem. In my opinion, it has to do more with the fact that the fire ele is able to spec 10 into Illusion and still afford self heals, utility (Gale, and to a small extent Meteor) and strong energy management and damage.

how about u finally stop blaming it all on the "euros" and things like "euro honor" and look at the problem from a neutral point of view? or is too much to ask for from an "american"?

This "new" (been in TA long before it came to gvg) build definitely needs quite a lot of tuning down, and moreover, I don't mind splits, I actually kinda like them, but what i dont like is "brainless button mash on recharge with overly good results and nearly no drawbacks", as i already mentioned ages ago.
That goes for pretty much all the main caster templates right now. However, that doesnt justify the MB template as a valid build at all~
I do agree with what you said i the last paragraph.

On a side note, if blocks have already been SO much of a problem then darn it, why didnt u advise the players to bring rigor and warrs cunning (!) months, if not years ago already?
oh wait...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Well it is, almost every split character on Obs right now is some kind of Fire Elementalist (E/Me or E/D). Doesn't mean it's overpowered though, it could equally mean every other option is underpowered. My original post was in response to Vanquisher's argument that the template has easy access to everything that makes a split character work: it clearly doesn't have everything, and has given up on some things as listed.

well, then you could easily say a smited warrs endurance warrior frontline was just good and rest was ridiculously underpowered in comparison to it, right? or was it very (!) overpowered, but only because it was so strong in "honor euro" 8v8?

the things the template has given up on are obviously rather minute and well-worth the sacrifice, because in the long term, they will still achieve their goal unless someone build warses them with mighty warrs cunning or rigor or/and rend enchantements!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Also come to think of it it isn't that hard to spam Fire skills on recharge - instead of Mind Blast, run Glowing Gaze + 12 Energy Storage and you should be fine. The limiting factor then becomes the lack of a fast-recharging Fire spell you can use (Flare doesn't count), although it does free up your elite. Nonetheless trying to make a different bar runs into the immediate problem in that you don't have enough spots on the bar. Flame Djinn's, Fire Attune, Aura of Resto, Res Sig, Immolate, Meteor and you only have 2 more spots to use, one of which must be energy management.

isn't Mindless Blast just godly or what.

Ec]-[oMaN · Jun 05, 2009, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by TironPlyth

Funny thing is, half the balance problems in this game develop from secondary profession abuse (*cough* Fast Casting *cough*). It's nothing unique to Distortion, or Mesmers.

Adding to that half of the skills are better suited away from it's primary coupled with a different secondary.

Just a few examples, warrior stances better on casters, glyph lesser better suited on non primary ele's as all three of the elements besides maybe earth have built in energy tools, glowing gaze, glowing ice, shock arrow, coupled with the new aura to safe guard primary attunes.

The other half of the problem within Guild Wars today and I have to be vague without getting into to many different factors, is power creep, and we all can probably agree with that.

Currently any of the major 3-4 builds you can argue are doing things way to well, with easy to use powerful bars. Right now I feel the builds people have adapted to and made over since the last skill balance are really more rock, paper, scissors oriented. With no real utility anywhere seen in the builds, just general purpose hexes that punish on way too many fronts, and the builds more geared to obtaining their specific goal.

You have split builds that can hardly be touched ran well unless totally countered by the all caster build.

Dual hex midline pressure builds that crumble teams with a pnh monk+deny and are countered by a dual para build with added hex removal and 4-5 physicals to try and power through the hexes.

Lately I've noticed a tone/theme from the playerbase regarding shutdown, some wish it should be further looked at and/or nerfed, which I disagree with. So much in the form of party wide defense has been nerfed that now shutdown/interupt seem or can be seen as too powerful because really they can focus on less things( we are in a stripped down state of the game). Like Ensign has brought up within his recent posts this month what utility is left?

Meanwhile the tone ingame is alot different. We've moved away drastically from utility driven metas, defencive webs or party wide defence.

Casters such as fire eles which don't face energy problems, fire skills recharge too quickly and pump big dmg, have movement buffs and counter melee threats.

Hex midliners which also don't face too many energy problems because of the abundance of cheap necro elites, again most hexes recharge too fast and don't forget to account for 40/40's. Abundance of AOE hexes. Hexes that punish you from trying to move, instead of just reduced movement speed+ a tiny degen maybe, hexes than punish you when using skills ie VOR instead of slowing you down from casting skills, hello Migraine. Skills ( Mantra of Resolve) that still punish any kind of team who likes to play or who can play well, control shutdown based builds, ranger+dual mesmer.

With regards to people previously wanting hexes to be of shorter duration, cheaper in cost, and quicker in recharge pre-pnh buff all that has stemed off that is now hex builds taking skills to counter interruption, ability to still spam their bar because of lack of shutdown, and rather minut energy issues. So what! you don't also have a stack of hexes like previously, but now you just always have those nasty ones sticking regardless.

It's a totally different game now 2 years later (defensive meta, driven with utility and alot more emphasis on shutdown/interrupts), even comparing to last May 08 the GvG focus/mechanics and play styles all have been drastically altered. I'd say there are many underlining issues besides Mind Blast and basic skill tweaking can fix at this point, as we're so far off course from previous times.

Yichi · Jun 05, 2009, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Well it is, almost every split character on Obs right now is some kind of Fire Elementalist (E/Me or E/D). Doesn't mean it's overpowered though, it could equally mean every other option is underpowered. My original post was in response to Vanquisher's argument that the template has easy access to everything that makes a split character work: it clearly doesn't have everything, and has given up on some things as listed.

And my response to it was that while it does not have everything, it is clearly the more viable split char at this time due to its advantages outweighing its disadvantages by a greater margin than almost any other template being ran.

I did not however say it was balanced or that it didnt need looked at.

lutz · Jun 05, 2009, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

On a side note, if blocks have already been SO much of a problem then darn it, why didnt u advise the players to bring rigor and warrs cunning (!) months, if not years ago already?
oh wait...

Because there's a difference between party-wide blocking and Distortion/Lightning Reflexes/Whirling Defenses on split.

Vanquisher · Jun 05, 2009, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

On a side note, if blocks have already been SO much of a problem then darn it, why didnt u advise the players to bring rigor and warrs cunning (!) months, if not years ago already?
oh wait...

I actually did. Split play sort of makes it even more needed because sending back healing doesn't really work too well with the current tie breaker. While you can keep your base up that's fine, they just need to keep smashing on the Lord. Option to suicide on bodyguard (or just kill it at best) if you give the window is even more important too as it's not hard to just power through a Rt runner (map depending).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Well it is, almost every split character on Obs right now is some kind of Fire Elementalist (E/Me or E/D). Doesn't mean it's overpowered though, it could equally mean every other option is underpowered. My original post was in response to Vanquisher's argument that the template has easy access to everything that makes a split character work: it clearly doesn't have everything, and has given up on some things as listed.

Cripple - you're referring to Crip Shot I guess, because they have Distortion and can kite Mel Shots (can strafe Crip Shot also but we'll talk about this regardless) - E/D variant doesn't care about Cripple anyway. Okay it aids in collapses, as does Freezing Gust, but then you're in the position where you're being forced to commit offense to play their game - the one they want you to play. If you're doing that you're in an unfavourable position. Remember, split play is very much a game of cat and mouse in some respects. With the current tie breaker it's sort of made worse. Soon as you're having to collapse your offense they're even further ahead because they'll probably be knocking on a bit of Lord damage.

For heals, D-Touch is pretty good. /Me variant doesn't have it but obviously has less downtime between NPC's. Can also always run /Mo running Flash and Breeze (as is often the case with BYOB).

Sacrifices are made depending on what you think suits you the best. What makes a split template work is easy access to healing and speed buffs. Condition and Hex removal are bonuses. Condition is required more for physicals because well, they're physical. Conditions don't inhibit casters ability to deal damage (unless it's Daze, but hey - Distortion and FFG). If you want to train 2 MB's (if that happens to be the split at the time) with F-Gust you're making the build choice, but unless you have a Monk there to support you you'll die. Or they'll just kill stuff through you anyway. You'll also need a Warrior to go kill them, so that's a 3/2 trade and you're losing a War and Monk at the stand. Pretty sure the best split builds are always those with threat on both ends so they'll be looking to punish you pretty heavily for that kind of investment into stopping their split, will have damage for tiebreaker, etc.

SirSporks · Jun 05, 2009, 08:42 PM // 20:42

I don't think I have seen this point in this thread. So I will mention it. Mindblast bars suck for big damage. It's more of a pressure build than anything. It's damage is even less damage from what pressure war's can be. Wars can also cause more KD's and inflict more harmful conditions. If you want big damage from a fire ele use a SF build or a SH build, MB is not big on the damage level, it's just steady. As a spiker, it is awesome though, because of the energy management and the low recharge of rodgorts, a few MB ele's can spike almost anytime and with some pretty big damage.

And please, PLEASE stop complaining about ele's ruining mesmers skills. Fast casting has made Anet hit so many good ele elites and regular skills it's not even funny.

I Angra I · Jun 05, 2009, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Strip its attune and aura, and watch it try to pump skills.

That seems like only a short term solution to deal with it throughout a whole match though. ;c Like sure you can strip it maybe 7-8 times a game, which takes it out for 7-8 minutes, but what about the other ~20 minutes? It'll make it less effective occasionally for sure but it won't totally counter the character I don't think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Not all E/Me bars have Rodgort's Invocation (typically have to give up Res Sig for that); actually most I've seen do not. Meteor's exhaustion isn't going to matter much either, unless you are fake-casting. It cools down in 30 seconds, after which the exhaustion would've worn off. Exhaustion is also completely different to infinite energy. Give a Mind Blast template Gale and he still can't spam Gale forever, he will exhaust himself.

Also come to think of it it isn't that hard to spam Fire skills on recharge - instead of Mind Blast, run Glowing Gaze + 12 Energy Storage and you should be fine. The limiting factor then becomes the lack of a fast-recharging Fire spell you can use (Flare doesn't count), although it does free up your elite. Nonetheless trying to make a different bar runs into the immediate problem in that you don't have enough spots on the bar. Flame Djinn's, Fire Attune, Aura of Resto, Res Sig, Immolate, Meteor and you only have 2 more spots to use, one of which must be energy management.

I was mostly just giving examples of the highest energy cost skills on the bar. There's no way you can use Immolate either every 3 seconds like you can with that build, on any other ele template that doesn't have mind blast/aura resto/fire attune combo.

lutz · Jun 05, 2009, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

That seems like only a short term solution to deal with it throughout a whole match though. ;c Like sure you can strip it maybe 7-8 times a game, which takes it out for 7-8 minutes, but what about the other ~20 minutes? It'll make it less effective occasionally for sure but it won't totally counter the character I don't think.

What?
I don't know what you're saying. Why can you strip it only 7-8 times a game, and not all game?

scruffy · Jun 06, 2009, 12:09 AM // 00:09

rit/necro, rend instead of a run buff, sit in lord room all game rending fire eles and healing up their damage, have a warrior take the flag then push their base

DreamWind · Jun 06, 2009, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirSporks

And please, PLEASE stop complaining about ele's ruining mesmers skills. Fast casting has made Anet hit so many good ele elites and regular skills it's not even funny.

Yea really...especially when in recent metas where eles have been nearly obselete in favor of mesmers running all ele skills.

Anyways, I think the problem people have is the energy gained from the build. If that is the problem, you probably have a point. If you have any other problems with the build, you are probably wrong imo.

SirSporks · Jun 06, 2009, 08:45 PM // 20:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

The only reason why Distortion is being targeted now is because it's present in a community unwilling to change. People know that the other team is going to bring E/Mes, yet they're unwilling to do small specs like bringing Rend Enchantments, Rigor Mortis (which doesn't even require a primary necromancer - you can bring it on a warrior, ranger, mesmer, elementalist, etc.) or some kind of stance removal (which finds utility in several other areas as well, such as balanced stance monks). You don't need to change your entire build around beating these things, which is what a lot of people are making it seem like. You just have to add one or two skills and you'll make the matchup infinitely more successful for you.

derpderpderp!!

we have a winner... This is a build and a skill based game, if one is beating the current meta, change your builds and and use your knowledge of how it works to beat it, don't int meteor, save it for trying to hit MB. You know he will spam it right after practically every skill. This build will cease to be popular once people start kicking it in the dirt.

scruffy · Jun 07, 2009, 01:54 AM // 01:54

I dont see how they can 'balance' the fire ele template, it will always either be too good or too bad. The only reason it is effective is because they have to send back defense at a 1:1 ration, through skill changes there is a breakpoint when that stops being the case and it becomes just as weak as every other split template. They have easy access to lord damage all game and if you try to send back damage all they do is pull out and you're even further behind because of the lord damage/pressure you lose in their base. All collapsing does against these guys is give your monks a time out. The game is basically whoever loses knights first has already lost barring some drastic mistake. What this means is either you have a build that is suited to this strategy or you don't. I've always liked the tie breaker until now it seems like it is affecting the game negatively because it makes split strategies too much of a coin toss build war.

I'm not the best player so there may be some strategies that I am not aware of that can be used against them but this is my general understanding of what is going on with the fire eles in the meta.

Also: It could be interesting to leave it as is if the meta somehow shifted to force them out of play, and you could whip them out as a sort of specialty tournament build but I don't see that happening, hope I'm wrong.

From what I've seen the best build to counter these eles is something with a lot of physical damage and a pblock mesmer because you can pblock monks and get the knights down, then send the dom mes back to your base to pblock the eles for the rest of the game while your physicals pound the lord till 28 and the game ends, pulling out and pushing in as the eles try to collapse/resplit.

Ciric · Jun 11, 2009, 04:36 AM // 04:36

The problem with the MB eles is 100% aura of restoration. The E/Me template was used briefly before the aura boost and it was ok, but nothing amazing. Aura allows for a attn cover, heal, and provides the extra energy for rodgorts and distortion. Take aura out of the equation and MB eles either A: Can't run distortion because they are forced to bring a self heal, or B: Have no heal, either way eles without aura can't stay and camp a base with NPCs and a damage char on them. You should be able to send back just a E/Rt (god knows how OP that bar is) and it be just fine as long as you have NPCs. Nerf aura of restos heal and make it require 10 ES to get 1 nrg back so stand eles can still use it as a cover and decent e-manage but you are forced to take other heals and no 4 sec distortion.

The goal is after all to nerf the template while keeping as many of the skillls playable as possible, that nerf keeps all 8 playable.

IF the aura nerf fails then I would go ahead and nerf MB more, the skill has ALWAYS been a template breaker and caused problems.

I Angra I · Jun 11, 2009, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

What?
I don't know what you're saying. Why can you strip it only 7-8 times a game, and not all game?

Well, you can probably strip it more often than that, but I mostly mean that you can't keep it down consistently all game because of how mobile the eles are, unless you have a character specifically following them around all game with strips or something.. but even then I dunno.