Curse

Yue · Jun 02, 2009, 01:12 AM // 01:12

MB eles are overpowered. Is that still under debate? Or have we finally moved past that.

Neo-LD · Jun 02, 2009, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

I have so many problems with your definition of "desirability". One reason is because it hinges on the definition of what player skill in this game is and it runs into the problem of what happens when two "undesirable" builds face each other.

Oh sure, it does hinge on the definition of what player skill is, but thats what I've gone to such trouble to investigate and define it. I don't suggest that everyone take my word for it, but my arguments for why I define things the way I do are pretty solid, if I do say so myself.

Also, I do not detect any problems if two undesirable builds face eachother. As far as balance is concerned, undesirability need only be associated with relative ineffectiveness, and if two teams want to go to town on eachother with ineffective builds, so be it. My arguments are fairly unconcerned with how Guild Wars exists currently, and are much more concerned with what ought to exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dreamwind

Nevertheless, I have a feeling we agree on most things and we are off topic anyways. I only entered this thread because some people claimed that a one build meta would be ok which I strongly disagree with. I'd prefer a multiple build evolving meta as Ensign explained.

Well to be fair, I was one of the people that suggested that a one-build metagame would be acceptable, as long as that build were desirable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

You may not agree, but no. If VoD farming took so little skill, how did rawr win so often?

When two players meet and one is significantly more skillful than the other, you expect the more skillful player to win.
When two equally skilled players meet, you expect eventually everything to even out at 50/50 each.

rawr won. They beat just about everyone. They beat everyone many times. Explain that, in the context that "VoD farming takes almost not skill".

Everything hinges on this, does it? Thats good, I'll settle it right here and now:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myself

Lets explain further: what we should aim for is a situation where we have a spectrum of effectiveness somewhat like so:

Skillful build played by bad player < Unskillful build played by bad player ~< Unskillful build played by good player <<< Skillful build played by good player

During the rawr-spike meta, no desirable builds were powerful enough to compete with rawr-spike. In fact, desirable builds have been thoroughly overmatched for a long, long time. Rawr spike won alot because they ran an undesirable build better than anyone else.

I did not discount the possibility that an undesirable build might become stronger when played by good players, because any build requires at least a little skill. For a spike build, a particular team might have a better or worse caller, infuser, and overall spike compactness as compared to other teams. But thats all, and its a pretty small list compared to the total number of elements of skill. And thats what makes it undesirable. I've even pointed this out once already:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Myself

Again, you fail to understand desirability. The team that spiked better probably won, but pure spike builds are not a particularly desirable part of guild wars because they are simplistic and make very little use of the elements of player skill. Specifically, they take so much defense that its almost impossible to die, and reduce their offense to simple 321s. Very little thought required.

lutz · Jun 02, 2009, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

During the rawr-spike meta, no desirable builds were powerful enough to compete with rawr-spike. In fact, desirable builds have been thoroughly overmatched for a long, long time. Rawr spike won alot because they ran an undesirable build better than anyone else.

Didn't you say a "balanced" build is a desirable build?

rawrspike was an extremely "balanced" (not game balance, but balanced as in able to pressure/spike/split/adapt to the other team) build. It was game-imbalanced because of its ability to do everything so well.

Jeydra · Jun 02, 2009, 02:42 AM // 02:42

@Neo-LD - should I add that rawrspike took skill as well? Otherwise, how do you account for rawr winning all the mATs they played in with rawrspike (and other rawrspike players failed to win)? Look at your definition of "desirable".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Conducive to a skill-rewarding metagame wherein talented players and teams can distinguish themselves from rif-raff using elements of player skill

rawrspike meta is a meta in which the skilled team - namely rawr - wins, using elements of player skill. You can see that from how rawr is almost undefeated with rawrspike while so many other guilds played rawrspike and lost. They distinguished themselves from rif-raff. Hence by definition it is "desirable". The VoD farm was also a game where talented players and teams - namely rawr - balled the other team's NPCs up better and so won using elements of player skill. KMD in the mAT finals for example tried the same tactic but lost, and rawr distinguished themselves from KMD, and so by definition it is "desirable". The rawr vs. dR match on Corrupted is another example. rawr wins after successfully holding dR NPC advantage to a minimum with strong counter splitting, aka. by using elements of player skill, and thus the build is by definition "desirable".

From this definition pretty much every build in the game has been desirable.

Also: I definitely do not want to give up spike as an archetype, and as I've said so elsewhere I could care less about builds not requiring "skill". That's about it.

lutz · Jun 02, 2009, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

rawrspike meta is a meta in which the skilled team - namely rawr - wins, using elements of player skill. You can see that from how rawr is almost undefeated with rawrspike while so many other guilds played rawrspike and lost. They distinguished themselves from rif-raff. Hence by definition it is "desirable". The VoD farm was also a game where talented players and teams - namely rawr - balled the other team's NPCs up better and so won using elements of player skill.

Ahahahahahahahahaha

You no longer get to talk.

Jeydra · Jun 02, 2009, 03:37 AM // 03:37

Lol are you claiming all of rawr's wins with rawrspike attributable to luck, servers, maps, which side of the map they spawn on, and anything except skill?

FoxBat · Jun 02, 2009, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Real skill means stubbornly clinging to honorable builds in the face of better choices.

Apok Omen · Jun 02, 2009, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Lol are you claiming all of rawr's wins with rawrspike attributable to luck, servers, maps, which side of the map they spawn on, and anything except skill?

Well, seeing as how GeAr ran rawrspike and lost to rawr due to rawr outsplitting them, I would have to say that rawrspike never had anything to do with luck, maps, or even servers favoring a certain continent. Of course skill was involved,, but the main reason that raw won back then was that they had the best build out there. And only a few guilds that didn't give a shit about ''hono(u)r" decided to run it in hopes of gaining gold trim.

(The only reason Shat lost to rawr when Shat ran rawrspike was because Shat expected rawr to run rawrspike(but instead chose nhway) and brought Eprism on their mes instead of Expel. If they did run expel, then they would have won)

Now that rawr is still searching for another perfect build, other guilds are free to run whatever the hell they want to win without worrying about an "hono(u)rless" build wrecking them.

Snow Bunny · Jun 02, 2009, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Ahahahahahahahahaha

You no longer get to talk.

They're the ones with the gold cape. They played whatever imbalanced bullshit better than everyone else.

Neo-LD · Jun 02, 2009, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Didn't you say a "balanced" build is a desirable build?

rawrspike was an extremely "balanced" (not game balance, but balanced as in able to pressure/spike/split/adapt to the other team) build. It was game-imbalanced because of its ability to do everything so well.

It did no such thing. It did nothing well but spike. It happened to have enough damage to "pressure" teams that already had team-wide DP and several characters down. They defended with a nearly impregnable fortress, wherein any individual failings of the defensive characters were easily hidden by the shear amount of defensive layering. They had one and only one tactic - spike and defend - and they won because their build was so singularly and excellently tuned to that purpose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

@Neo-LD - should I add that rawrspike took skill as well? Otherwise, how do you account for rawr winning all the mATs they played in with rawrspike (and other rawrspike players failed to win)? Look at your definition of "desirable".

Already answered, see my last post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

rawrspike meta is a meta in which the skilled team - namely rawr - wins, using elements of player skill.

Also already answered in my last post.

Torsen1 · Jun 02, 2009, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

rawrspike was an extremely "balanced" (not game balance, but balanced as in able to pressure/spike/split/adapt to the other team) build. It was game-imbalanced because of its ability to do everything so well.

You forgot one thing, rawr build (BA/expel water/caretakers) also had the ability to trick people into thinking it only spiked.

romO · Jun 02, 2009, 05:24 AM // 05:24

@Neo-LD - I'm impressed.

Jeydra · Jun 02, 2009, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

It did no such thing. It did nothing well but spike. It happened to have enough damage to "pressure" teams that already had team-wide DP and several characters down. They defended with a nearly impregnable fortress, wherein any individual failings of the defensive characters were easily hidden by the shear amount of defensive layering. They had one and only one tactic - spike and defend - and they won because their build was so singularly and excellently tuned to that purpose.

Oh really? I definitely remember one game in which rawr played sup (or was it BadV?) on Druid's Isle, think it was a mAT semifinals, and sup (BadV?) ran 3 Warriors, Signet Mesmer and Ranger + 2 Monks + flagger, i.e. no midline defense, and rawr pressured their way to a win.

Only spike indeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Already answered, see my last post.

Answered in my last post as well. The definition of a desirable build as you give it is one that requires skill, and rawrspike required more skill than you seem to think it did.

There are two problems with your mindset and I'll point it out now. One, you are implicitly defining "skill" to be a set of skills that does not include "balling up NPCs at VoD" or "surviving with your opponents wailing on you for 30 seconds while preparing a spike", for no firm reason whatsoever. Two, you mistakenly believe that rawrspike / VoD illusion farm / etc requires very little skill, although lesser guilds have over the years demonstrated convincingly that it does, by consistently getting pressured out, outsplit or even failing to spike properly while running those same spike builds - or consistently losing to rawr while trying to VoD illusion farm.

You can press an argument that VoD illusion farm, while being a skill, is not a desirable skill to have in the game. I'd agree with you too actually. But you've not done that; you've tried to argue that it's not a skill in the first place. You can also try to argue that defensive spike isn't a desirable skill, although here I'll disagree. Wasn't there a match from a long time ago and before I got interested in GvG, tE vs. EW where EW ran FoC spike, a pretty exciting match? Although I didn't see that match for myself I've read axiom's match report on it, and it sure seemed not only fun to watch and play, it also showcased the diversity of GW where two completely different builds clashed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apok Omen

Well, seeing as how GeAr ran rawrspike and lost to rawr due to rawr outsplitting them, I would have to say that rawrspike never had anything to do with luck, maps, or even servers favoring a certain continent. Of course skill was involved,, but the main reason that raw won back then was that they had the best build out there. And only a few guilds that didn't give a shit about ''hono(u)r" decided to run it in hopes of gaining gold trim.

I feel the same way, and I'll add that:

1) If you accept that rawrspike takes skill then you also accept by Neo-LD's definition that it is a desirable build (which is the main point);
2) rawr ran the build better than anyone else, such as GeAr. I suspect actually that some guilds know they can't outplay rawr in a mirror match (not without speccing anti-rawrspike ala Shat) and so didn't play rawrspike.

scruffy · Jun 02, 2009, 06:25 AM // 06:25

i think what neo ld means is it wasnt like rawr made a strategy shift from spiking to pressuring they just kept spiking and it made pressure at the same time

FoxBat · Jun 02, 2009, 05:05 PM // 17:05

The fact that like only 2 or 3 guilds in the history of rawrbuild could play it anywhere near their level says one of two things;

1) Their build requires some skill, however boring it may be to play.

2) Even top guilds don't want to win badly enough to play rawr build.

#2 is equally damning, in that how can you take the top levels of competition seriously if people will not play to win?

Neo-LD · Jun 02, 2009, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Oh really? I definitely remember one game in which rawr played sup (or was it BadV?) on Druid's Isle, think it was a mAT semifinals, and sup (BadV?) ran 3 Warriors, Signet Mesmer and Ranger + 2 Monks + flagger, i.e. no midline defense, and rawr pressured their way to a win.

Only spike indeed.

So they can pressure, but only when their opponents don't play defense? Pressure indeed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

There are two problems with your mindset and I'll point it out now. One, you are implicitly defining "skill" to be a set of skills that does not include "balling up NPCs at VoD" or "surviving with your opponents wailing on you for 30 seconds while preparing a spike", for no firm reason whatsoever. Two, you mistakenly believe that rawrspike / VoD illusion farm / etc requires very little skill, although lesser guilds have over the years demonstrated convincingly that it does, by consistently getting pressured out, outsplit or even failing to spike properly while running those same spike builds - or consistently losing to rawr while trying to VoD illusion farm.

Completely wrong. In fact, the two things you point out are in fact problems with your mindset. You fail to understand the very good reasons why the required skills of "balling up NPCs" and "spiking" are insufficient on their own to classify a build as desirable, because those skills represent such a small percentage of total possible required skills, and are so easy to execute in comparison to other possible required skills, and are only tangentially related to the elements of player skill that Guild Wars ought to be emphasizing in the first place.

Yue · Jun 02, 2009, 06:34 PM // 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

The fact that like only 2 or 3 guilds in the history of rawrbuild could play it anywhere near their level says one of two things;

1) Their build requires some skill, however boring it may be to play.

2) Even top guilds don't want to win badly enough to play rawr build.

#2 is equally damning, in that how can you take the top levels of competition seriously if people will not play to win?

It says they didn't have Polly.

lutz · Jun 02, 2009, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

how can you take the top levels of competition seriously if people will not play to win?

Just ask Mitch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

So they can pressure, but only when their opponents don't play defense? Pressure indeed.

Pretty sure if you played any build with any sort of midline defense that didn't pack enough damage, you wouldn't be able to kill anything against rawrspike.

Jeydra · Jun 02, 2009, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

So they can pressure, but only when their opponents don't play defense? Pressure indeed.

Have you seen pure spike builds?

I remember KK losing one game - don't remember to who - with their dual Ranger / no Warrior spike because their opponents brought no midline defense. KK got no kills outside of their spikes. You can bring one Monk vs. Gothspike and you won't have any problems outside of catching the spike (or until you suffer enough DP). You can do the same against 8x Elementalists using Energy Blast. THAT is pure spike. rawrspike isn't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Completely wrong. In fact, the two things you point out are in fact problems with your mindset. You fail to understand the very good reasons why the required skills of "balling up NPCs" and "spiking" are insufficient on their own to classify a build as desirable, because those skills represent such a small percentage of total possible required skills, and are so easy to execute in comparison to other possible required skills, and are only tangentially related to the elements of player skill that Guild Wars ought to be emphasizing in the first place.

Nope. You have not until now mentioned "small percentage of total possible required skills", in fact it is not even in your definition of desirable builds, and now that you have let me ask you this: why can't you call buildwars and metagaming part of the "total possible required skills"?

And answer me this as well: if rawrspike and VoD balling are so easy to do, then why didn't anyone manage to beat rawr at those things? Since it's so easy, matches quickly come down to luck right, and once it comes to luck you expect rawr to lose 50% of their matches, no?

lord of all tyria · Jun 02, 2009, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Why do you people insist on arguing over semantics for no apparant reason?