Curse

Wish Swiftdeath · May 30, 2009, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Okay, you CAN counter it, but it's still overpowered.

Sure you can bring skills to counter it but they're usually useless against other builds.

These ele's do so much damage and yet have so much defence, that's the problem. Damage is much more difficult to change so it's a better idea to nerf the defence on these characters and make them easier to disrupt so they do less damage (have to kite/get bullsed - instead of just sitting there spamming high damage skills).

Whilst in GvG MB ele's are more balanced because you are able to run more skills and thus are able to counter them more easily without sacrificing damage/utility in your builds TA is a completely different matter.

3 mind blast ele's WILL overrun a single monk, even a team with a good magebane would still lose to some average team running mindblast.

If it was up to me i would increase the recharge of distortion and make it more of a skill to be used when you want to get another skill through rather than as a general block stance.

I.E. I want to shame the monk but the ranger is sitting on me - just cast shame and activate distortion, of course the ranger is still free to magebane you but he's bringing a direct counter to blocking so that's fine, he's sacrificing damage (burning arrow) for example in order to provide greater disruption.

Regulus X · May 30, 2009, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

Okay, you CAN counter it, but it's still overpowered.

Sure you can bring skills to counter it but they're usually useless against other builds.

These ele's do so much damage and yet have so much defence, that's the problem. Damage is much more difficult to change so it's a better idea to nerf the defence on these characters and make them easier to disrupt so they do less damage (have to kite/get bullsed - instead of just sitting there spamming high damage skills).

Whilst in GvG MB ele's are more balanced because you are able to run more skills and thus are able to counter them more easily without sacrificing damage/utility in your builds TA is a completely different matter.

3 mind blast ele's WILL overrun a single monk, even a team with a good magebane would still lose to some average team running mindblast.

If it was up to me i would increase the recharge of distortion and make it more of a skill to be used when you want to get another skill through rather than as a general block stance.

I.E. I want to shame the monk but the ranger is sitting on me - just cast shame and activate distortion, of course the ranger is still free to magebane you but he's bringing a direct counter to blocking so that's fine, he's sacrificing damage (burning arrow) for example in order to provide greater disruption.

12 characters

lutz · May 30, 2009, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wish Swiftdeath

3 mind blast ele's WILL overrun a single monk

No shit, sherlock.

The "blocking" mechanic isn't a mechanic that's obscure and rarely used, and forcing you to change around your entire build for it. It's everywhere: it's part of the heart of Guild Wars (though % chance for anything is really detrimental to competitive play). This is a block heavy meta. Bring Rigor, Defile, or things that punish it.

Better yet, bring caster shutdown. There's a difference between "so imbalanced I have to work my entire build around it and come up with some stupid crap to win" (see: sinsplit, and [dR] vs [Me]) and "your build is just too one-sided, and this is a counter to your one-sided build".

Beren985 · May 30, 2009, 08:30 PM // 20:30

There is no problem with Distortion. The problem is the energy engine itself, that allows Distortion to be powered to absurd levels. Solution: tone down MB.

Ec]-[oMaN · May 30, 2009, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beren985

There is no problem with Distortion. The problem is the energy engine itself, that allows Distortion to be powered to absurd levels. Solution: tone down MB.

It's pretty evident Distortion isn't the problem, ever since it got raped years ago. Mind blast getting a re-buff, immolate getting a buff, and Aura of resto now being viable helped push the template beyond previous states. Not to mention the meta is sort of perfect for it and of course no one has yet to really build against it besides the dual necro/fire build. Of course I'm talking from a GvG standpoint and some of the people feeling a distaste for the template are coming from a 4v4 arena when you can't really build for the variance of builds; and if there is a limited amount of builds in those smaller fromats it should be even easier to counter, which seems to be the case anyways. No matter the templates discussed will always be considered moreso overpowered in a format that allows less skills to be brought.

urania · May 30, 2009, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Of course not, Mind Blast is a hybrid skill that's about half an elite worth of energy but does some damage as well. Unmolested they work very similar to dual attunement guys; the dual attunement guys peak higher actually, as that combination gives a slew more energy.

Mind Blast is preferred over dual attunements for 2 principal reasons:

- Mind Blast is less prone to disruption. The Mind Blast character doesn't completely fall apart if Rended, and the skills used are less vulnerable to interrupts.

- Mind Blast can power non-Elementalist skills reasonably well.

I know why its prefered over dual attunements - anyone that relies on 2s cast time skills with ultra long recharge for e management in times when there's disruption and ench removal in every half decent team is plain crazy.

the MB character skills are less vulnerable, but just as efficient if not more in comparison to those vulnerable to disruption - shouldn't your imbalance alarm go off right about now?

also, i agree that the problem doesnt lie in distortion, but the fact it can be used on recharge without any really worry, as long as MB is functional and the attu is up.
however, maybe a reduced block (to 50% or so) wouldnt harm either...

Ensign · May 30, 2009, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

the MB character skills are less vulnerable, but just as efficient if not more in comparison to those vulnerable to disruption - shouldn't your imbalance alarm go off right about now?

No, because dual attunement guys aren't the proper comparison for the Mind Blast Elementalist; I wouldn't compare them to that any more than I would to a Sandstorm / Ward or any other odd, uncommon template. The proper comparisons are other top tier characters: VoR Mesmers, Lingering Curse Necros, water Mesmers, Melandru's Rangers, and the variety of Warrior bars being played. Is the Mind Blast template out of whack with the other top templates? Not at all. The metagame right now is a mix of those characters in different numbers, and no particular mix beats every other mix.

Sure, different templates aren't very deep, and there are clear best skills for each archetype. The game isn't particularly balanced on a micro scale, and has been getting progressively worse in that regard every update. But that's largely irrelevant, because the game is very balanced from a macro scale right now, and balance on a macro scale is what makes the game most fun. Mind Blast Eles are a key part of the healthiest metagame I've seen in the last year, and I think that it's extraordinarily foolish to start complaining about balance when the metagame is just starting to evolve.

Stoella · May 30, 2009, 10:47 PM // 22:47

End of it all. Cry won with dual E/Me, moral is : it is not only overpowered in 4v4, it is in 8v8.

Ensign · May 30, 2009, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Did you even watch that game? Did you watch any other matches in the elimination rounds? I think the moral is that I'm wasting my time trying to explain things to people who aren't even paying attention.

Hint - the winning team ran 3 different archetypes in the top 8.

Sun Fired Blank · May 31, 2009, 12:23 AM // 00:23

I don't think there's any argument that the Mind Blast template is a bit ridiculous, and requires zero user micro to pump big results. On the other hand, that pretty much describes everything else in the meta, and it's not surprising that a split template did extraordinarily well in a split-favorable map rotation.

If the rotation was something like: Isle of Jade, Burning Isle, Isle of the Dead, Frozen Isle, _____________, you'd probably see much different results.

scruffy · May 31, 2009, 12:28 AM // 00:28

i like how the physical builds are good at beating the hex builds and the hex builds are good at beating split builds and the split builds are good at beating physical builds

it makes for some unforgiving decisions build wise, maybe it will make people shift more towards balanced builds to make up for this fact

i agree with what ensign said, i just want to see the builds that people think up to beat the current ones

also to the above poster: thats what happens in a game with a lot of different maps

the only difference would probably be GeAr and rawr in the top 8 and some of the split guilds like vR and vK not

Regulus X · May 31, 2009, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Alot of great deliberation on both sides. I appreciate the interactions of all the mem's/mod's on guru and their concern over my topic. It's now up to Anet to shed light over the E/Me Template, assess it and make a final determination as to whether it's just a harmless physical-attacker-basher, or if it's just too overpowered and 1-2-3-4ish with little drawback.

By the way, where can one alert the Live Team on this topic? Or has the E/Me been looked into by the Dev's any? I think it's important to seek their thoughts on the matter.

Ec]-[oMaN · May 31, 2009, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

Or has the E/Me been looked into by the Dev's any? I think it's important to seek their thoughts on the matter.

It's been nerfed previously and buffed as late, pretty sure eyes are on it, it's just anything that might happen to it will lead to un-usable instead of build variety. It's how things go over at the Anet balance workshop.

lutz · May 31, 2009, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Fired Blank

I don't think there's any argument that the Mind Blast template is a bit ridiculous, and requires zero user micro to pump big results. On the other hand, that pretty much describes everything else in the meta, and it's not surprising that a split template did extraordinarily well in a split-favorable map rotation.

If the rotation was something like: Isle of Jade, Burning Isle, Isle of the Dead, Frozen Isle, _____________, you'd probably see much different results.

The concept of "zero user micro to pump big results" isn't too big of a problem. Micro isn't really the center of most Guild Wars builds - in fact, it's only really present in your standard "euro honor" builds. Look at [iQ] - some of them were known for being pretty bad about their micro (Rayne) and still managed to pull through with strong wins. The more important thing is strategy, and how you use your skills. Putting damage in the right places, putting your shutdown in the right places, etc. are all more important than micro (on some bars).

Greedy Gus · May 31, 2009, 02:51 AM // 02:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Did you even watch that game? Did you watch any other matches in the elimination rounds? I think the moral is that I'm wasting my time trying to explain things to people who aren't even paying attention.

I saw two underdog longshot teams make it to the semi-finals on the back of fire eles (the classic epitome of brainless push-button offense in GW) with nearly permanent IMS and constantly churning self-heals as they spam (no time opportunity cost) whose positioning is nearly irrelevant while clearing bases & base defenders (tanking npcs), and whose only real decision is whether to use their secondary to make them immune to cripple or immune to regular damage.

I saw 6/16 teams choose to run fire eles in the first round, 3/8 run them in the quarters, 3/4 with dual fire eles in the semis, and cry winning with them in the finals. Cry played fire eles in every single elim match except for burning.

Out of 7 games that featured dual mindblasters vs. no mindblasters, the teams with the eles only lost twice (StS beating a vK who just rearranged all roles, and Cry beating vR with paragons on burning), objectively two matchups where the americans were tremendously outclassed. Almost every upset in this mAT were in the other 5 games in this category.

In light of this, the choice to bring 2 fire eles was actually wiser for success than the choice to run dual warriors, and just behind running 2 monks. That's pretty spectacular for a button-mashing template.

Even your comparison to hex necros & mesmers is unfavorable, because the results of those templates' decision-making are far more nuanced.

lutz · May 31, 2009, 03:17 AM // 03:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greedy Gus

I saw two underdog longshot teams make it to the semi-finals on the back of fire eles (the classic epitome of brainless push-button offense in GW) with nearly permanent IMS and constantly churning self-heals as they spam (no time opportunity cost) whose positioning is nearly irrelevant while clearing bases & base defenders (tanking npcs), and whose only real decision is whether to use their secondary to make them immune to cripple or immune to regular damage.

I saw 6/16 teams choose to run fire eles in the first round, 3/8 run them in the quarters, 3/4 with dual fire eles in the semis, and cry winning with them in the finals. Cry played fire eles in every single elim match except for burning.

Out of 7 games that featured dual mindblasters vs. no mindblasters, the teams with the eles only lost twice (StS beating a vK who just rearranged all roles, and Cry beating vR with paragons on burning), objectively two matchups where the americans were tremendously outclassed. Almost every upset in this mAT were in the other 5 games in this category.

In light of this, the choice to bring 2 fire eles was actually wiser for success than the choice to run dual warriors, and just behind running 2 monks. That's pretty spectacular for a button-mashing template.

Even your comparison to hex necros & mesmers is unfavorable, because the results of those templates' decision-making are far more nuanced.

Be Team just ran a stupid build. It wasn't a matter of an imbalanced build - it was just a matter of poor build choice.

Greedy Gus · May 31, 2009, 04:04 AM // 04:04

I have no idea why you think that response is sufficient & relevant to my entire post. At least make the claim that every better guild who got beat by fire eles was making a poor build choice, and then I will obviously agree because I already said running dual mindblasters is possibly the wisest build choice.

scruffy · May 31, 2009, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Cry beating vR was a massive upset

Ensign · May 31, 2009, 06:33 AM // 06:33

3/4 of the elimination maps were on very split friendly maps. Teams that chose to not run Fire Eles and Rangers on those maps were choosing not to play the strongest builds for those maps. Expecting the split you'd want to run WWREN, WREEN, or WREMN in all likelihood, depending on what you expect the other team to bring; or ERMNN or EERNN if you want to go all-in on splits.

I'm actually kinda surprised that the Fire Eles were so under-represented in the top 16 overall. With the number of split maps available I'd expect more of them. This MAT was actually interesting to watch for once, and I'm interested to see how things start to settle once people get a better grip on the matchups and what tools are needed. The most surprising thing to me was the lack of many single Fire Ele builds. In every build that wasn't going all-in on a split, it seemed like one of the Fire Eles was inevitably stuck next to a heal Monk that shut him down hard. Perhaps it's necessary simply to keep that Monk out of the base, but barring that it is hard for me to understand why it was better than another character in that slot.

Decision making on the Fire Ele templates is almost entirely macro. As has been pointed out, they are not micro heavy characters. As such they perform very well when they are able to use the whole map, but perform relatively poorly when contained to a larger fight; this goes beyond harder counters such as the Weaken Knees Necro.

urania · May 31, 2009, 08:28 AM // 08:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

No, because dual attunement guys aren't the proper comparison for the Mind Blast Elementalist; I wouldn't compare them to that any more than I would to a Sandstorm / Ward or any other odd, uncommon template. The proper comparisons are other top tier characters: VoR Mesmers, Lingering Curse Necros, water Mesmers, Melandru's Rangers, and the variety of Warrior bars being played. Is the Mind Blast template out of whack with the other top templates? Not at all. The metagame right now is a mix of those characters in different numbers, and no particular mix beats every other mix.

Sure, different templates aren't very deep, and there are clear best skills for each archetype. The game isn't particularly balanced on a micro scale, and has been getting progressively worse in that regard every update. But that's largely irrelevant, because the game is very balanced from a macro scale right now, and balance on a macro scale is what makes the game most fun. Mind Blast Eles are a key part of the healthiest metagame I've seen in the last year, and I think that it's extraordinarily foolish to start complaining about balance when the metagame is just starting to evolve.

Indeed, a VoR mesmer isnt any less brain-dead than MB, neither is LC necro, but hexes/hexstacking were always like that anyway. Comparing them to those templates makes more sense too, I guess, yet I can't resist but compare it to how things used to be and sigh at some of certain templates.

I am not complaining about balance directly (apart from the sudden hexway increase), but feel rather concerned regarding templates such as MB ele and Vor mes - especially, whether we will be seeing even more of such builds in the future. The game sure is rushing downhill regarding that (another great example of it are TA monk build templates, where one carries woh with vig and patient+hex removal and stances. "Preprotting" is now done with patient instead of guardian and that for pretty much the same reason dual attunement eles are long gone).

Moreover, I am speaking from a TA perspective and TA is a place where builds such as hex overload and MB (in some build setups, at least) prove to be especially degenerated and brain-dead.